How Can I Draw Real-World Places in Campaign Cartographer?

I'd like to use Campaiagn Cartographer 3+ to draw hex maps for wargames. Because these are real-world places, I don't want to rely on random generation.

I'm trying to create relatively "clean" area maps instead of detailed topo maps. For now I'm redrawing maps I'd created in LibreOffice. I started a grassland map, but the hexes are too dark and too textured for easy readability.

I don't have the coordination for completely freehand drawing, but I want relatively free placement of coastlines, rivers, railroads, and cities. I need these to connect with each other, so it helps if I can snap to a detailed grid. I want other terrain to snap to the hex grid. Most hex-grid samples snap coastlines to the grid.

... I don't have the faintest idea how to do this kind of map in this app. I think there's a tutorial, but I doubt it's relevant.

Kevin

Comments

  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 41 images Cartographer

    Hi Marja :)

    What styles have you tried so far?

    Can you show us a small sample of one of your Libre Office maps so we know what we are aiming for?

  • It is fairly straightforward to draw hex maps using Campaign Cartographer, providing you have access to one of the hex-map styles. I did a series of small test-maps in such a style back in 2023 here, where you can see both the snap-grid placement of symbols and terrain hexes, coastal shading, and, by scrolling further down the page, some samples where I redrew the coastlines by-hand. Adding roads and river lines would be fairly easy as well, as they're simply coloured lines of whatever style and thickness you prefer, and which can be drawn freehand, or using the hexagonal snap-grid.

    @mike robel here has created a number of historical wargame hex-maps. This is his most recent topic on the subject. He can doubtless advise further on the subject, given many of his maps are based on real-world examples.

    mike robelScottALoopysueMarja Erwin
  • Wyvern is very generous in remarking upon my work. All my maps are made by using contour maps, usually at 1:100000 to 1:24000 scale and I mostly trace the contours and other features. My attempts at more generic maps look more like a 6 year old's scribbling. I was chastised mightily in third grade for my inability in penmanship, coloring, and staying inside the lines...

    Having said that, I love drawing contour maps.

    ScottALoopysueWyvernMarja Erwin
  • Hi Marja,

    Although not a Hex map I did create a real life map using Birdseye Continental - which I know would quite possibly not be suitable for Hex maps. My point is just to say ’Yes I  know it can be done”.

    https://forum.profantasy.com/galleryviewer/395/36987 -- this is what I came up with if you’re interested.

    Royal Scribemike robelLoopysueMarja ErwinWyvern
  • edited October 14

    (I wasn't able to link the original odg. This is a playtest map for a commericial product, but it is not the publishers' final map. I want to draw a smaller map for a mini-game and preview of the full game. I checked the CC3+ license terms, and it does allow commercial work.)

  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 41 images Cartographer

    There are a number of hex mapping styles that might suit, but do you need to limit yourself to actual hexes or will a hex grid do? CC3+ can add a numbered hex grid to any map, like this (the map below is one of the example maps from the style Modern Political in the 2010 Cartographer's Annual).

    Original map (no grid)

    The same map with a grid I just added.

    As I said above, you could use any style you liked if a hex grid was an acceptable alternative to hex components, or even make your own style as Mike has done.

    If you want to have a look at other styles available there's a page of links here.

    As for the actual drawing of the map - the coastline etc, you can import image files of these types into CC3+ and trace the shapes as you wish.


    Kevin
  • I have coordination problems, so I want to avoid too much freehand drawing. I also want to make sure it's clear which hexes everything is in or passes through.

  • I can’t draw for the life of me but I can draw maps with cc3+ pretty well these days,,

    Marja ErwinLoopysue
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 41 images Cartographer
    edited October 15

    It sounds like you need a hex style where the hexes are ready-built to be placed on a snapping grid, though that might mean the coastlines, rivers, and boundaries, etc. are more hex shaped than you would probably like them to be.

    Perhaps something like Hex Overland? It's in the same Cartographer's Annual as the last example I showed you - the 2010 annual, or "Volume 4".

    These are the symbols from that style.


    Marja Erwin
  • Looking at your PDF sample map, it seems as if what you may need are just hexes with three different fills to duplicate it. Two of those are terrain fills, the other is simply the flat colour representing open terrain (I think). If so, you can easily create those in CC3+, providing you have suitable bitmap fills available (either custom fills from the publisher, or ones you think will be suitable from what CC3+ assets you have available). All you need do is draw a hex using the hexagonal snap grid, and then change its fill style, then copy and paste that hex exactly where you need, again using the snap grid.

    The river and coastlines may be trickier, because those are all obviously freehand on your sample map (I've drawn this coastline myself before, although for the ancient period, so I know it's not easy!). However, there is a trace option using CC3+ drawing tools that is able to at least approximately follow strongly-defined lines (that is, lines where there's a good degree of contrast) from a bitmap image (such as a JPG) imported into your CC3+ map. (Note though that this is separate to the Trace command the tools allow you to use when drawing with one in CC3+, because that needs a line already drawn in the CC3+ map to follow, not something on a separate image).

    Sue's advice is good if you wanted to draw a map with a lot of different terrain types particularly, but those terrain symbols do seem rather different to your sample map's appearance. Hopefully though, some of our comments here will help point you in the right direction!

    [And don't be so modest @mike robel 😁!]

    Marja Erwinmike robel
  • edited October 16

    When I was using LibreOffice, I would create layers for:

    1. The source image. I often had trouble getting this scaled and keeping it scaled.
    2. The hex grid. The various terrain types were hexshaped polygons with different fills. I'd have to hide this when editing the next layers.
    3. The rivers and seas. These were lines and polygons, respectively, with straight lines between control points rather than curves.
    4. The railroads. Similar to the rivers.
    5. The cities, their names, etc.

    I relied on snap-to-grid options to make sure these would align and connect properly, but they could easily get mis-aligned during editing, and especially during rotation. I ended up with a LOT of work just getting them re-aligned. It's one reaso I'd prefer to avoid too much freehand drawing.

    I'm just getting started with Campaign Cartographer.

    1. It might be better to use the original source map as a source image, but it would be much easier to use the existing playtest map. I wonder if it's possible to use 2 source images and alternately show and hide each one. Campaign Cartographer is supposed to make it easier to scale the source map.
    2. It appears to have better tools for hex grids. I tried creating a standard overland map and a hex grid on top of it. But I can't figure out how to align the hex grid so 1. the corners don't go past the left edge of the map, and 2. there's equal "wasted space" on the left and right edges, and the top and bottom edges. I would prefer a hex map with special coastal tiles, not a lighter shade of blue, but various coombinations of land ad sea in the same hex. I am also considering using hex tiles within each hex, e.g. a map with MANY 4 km hexes, and then a 32-km hex grid on top of it all.
    3. I think I need to pick a single map style. I can't tell if it's even possible to combine terrain from different styles. But it's hard to figure out which styles include which terrain, e.g. woods and marshes and railroads and mines and factories. (Fortunately I got the Humble Bundle last spring.)
    4. Touchpad scrolling makes things zoom instead. Scrollbar scrolling is harder for me. LibreOffice keyboard shortcuts don't work, or have new and unexpected effects. I can't always undo mistakes, and can't figure out how to select mistakes to remove them.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 82 images Cartographer

    1. Sure. Just put each image on a different sheet and/or layer. Than you can show/hide those sheets/layers as required. If you use sheets, you can also add a transparency effect on one of them so you can see them overlaid on top of each other if that is helpful.

    2. If you make your hex grids manually after creating the map instead of in the new map wizard by using Draw -> Hex or square overlay you can hit the Select points button in the dialog to have more control over the placement of the grid. But due to the fact that hexes by their very nature doesn't really line up very well with nice round numbers, it can be a little trial and error getting them exactly as as you want. Keep in mind that coordinates in CC3+ can be entered on the command line when requested, and not just by clicking the mouse, this makes it easier to do precision placement.

    Also note that when it comes to hexes within hexes, if you are using a hex mapping style, the hex tiles are designed to snap and size to the hex grid, so you should place the actual grid you are mapping by first, and after making the map add any additional overlay grid. Also remember that hexes doesn't actually fit perfectly within each other, the big hexes will always clip through the middle of the smaller hexes along some of the edges.

    3. You can combine styles, but it takes a bit of additional work. Mostly you need to import the fills used by the secondary style. See https://forum.profantasy.com/discussion/comment/99096/#Comment_99096. For the hex symbols themselves however, it is simply a matter of just opening up the appropriate symbol catalog.

    4. CC3+ doesn't do any special touchpad handling, it just treats it like a mouse (like most other software), so if it zooms instead it is a result of the signals your touchpad sends to the program. Touchpads are not generally very good for any drawing applications though. But try the PAN command (just type PAN and hit enter on the command line). Pan lets you scroll by clicking two points in your map, and then scrolls the viewport by the amount indicated by the distance between those two points. It may feel a bit foreign at first, but it is a great way to have perfect precision when scrolling.

    LoopysueRoyal ScribeMarja Erwin
  • 6 days later
  • edited October 23

    Thanks. I'm still running into a lot of trouble.

    1. I think I need to find the right style. But it's hard to figure out which styles have which terrain; for example the 1930s travel guide doesn't seem to have wooded or marshy terrain.
    2. I also need to import the source map. I had a very hard time even getting the imported source map to show up. I had to create a new layer, convert the source map to a bitmap, import the bitmap, and click and drag across the working map. I can't rotate it, rescale it, etc. Or delete it to try again. I have no idea what's going wrong. I can't tell which later CC3+ added the source map to, but none are locked.
    3. I also need a closer snap-grid than just the centers, corners, and mid-points of the hexes; I may have to use micro-hexes just to get the snap-grid to work!
    4. I don't want to deal with curves, they sometimes make terrain features spill into the wrong hexes.
    5. In addition, my mouse cursor covers most of each tooltip, so I have to guess what each tool will do. I can't find a selection tool.
  • WyvernWyvern 🖼️ 269 images Cartographer
    edited October 23
    1. The style choice is obviously up to you, but the original PDF map you shared uses only very simple textures and plain colours for the hexes, and that wouldn't need more than a couple of texture bitmap fill options to accomplish, which the standard CC3+ overland styles could likely provide.
    2. Once you have your source map as a bitmap image (a simple JPG will be fine), all you need then do is create a new Sheet in your CC3+ drawing, for ease call it "BITMAP", and a new Layer, also "BITMAP", and make sure both layers are active (click in their respective check-boxes, if necessary). Then, using the drop-down menu Draw => Insert file simply navigate to where your source map's image is stored, and click "Open". You'll then be asked to click the "First corner" (in the CC3+ window's command line), so pick a suitable spot in your map, and then enlarge the image to an appropriate size, before clicking to locate the "Second corner". Your map image will then be set-up in your CC3+ map file. Once the image is in-place, you can move, rescale and adjust it by clicking somewhere on the edge of the image (only), when the Command line asks you to "Select entities" for whatever command you want to carry out. You will need to check the map scale is correct once your image is in-place, by using the Info => Distance drop-down menu command to measure between two points on the image whose separation you know (flat to flat of a hex, for example), for simplicity making sure "Snap" is turned off, but "Ortho" is on. If the map image is too large or small for the hex-sizes you want, you can rescale it either by-hand, or (better) numerically, by typing the values into the Command line when prompted (and you can just ask it to multiply or divide with the numerical sizes; you don't need to work that out separately).*
    3. Not sure why the hex snap grid isn't working for you, assuming you're trying to duplicate the map whose image you showed, because the terrain is shown as per whole hex there, so it'd be easier for you to just work with drawn hex-shaped polygons (created using the hex-corner points in the snap grid), and then place those hexes where required. As long as the hexes are the correct size for what your final map needs to show, this should be fine, and work with the snap grid.
    4. Curves can be tricky, but you can simply draw lines using the straight path (or polygon) option instead. You'll need to click to add more nodes for lines/polygon edges to still seem curved in places, but it avoids the oddness that using the curved drawing tools can create sometimes.
    5. You may have the arrow cursor set instead of the crosshairs one (crosshairs show exactly where your cursor is using a crosshair that covers the whole map). To change from one to the other, simply press Ctrl + T (and see this post for another option, as well as a caveat on this command's use).

    Without seeing exactly what you're trying to draw, I suspect it'll be hard to give more concrete advice than this, but hopefully this will get you a bit further forward.


    * [EDIT: I should also note that when you start to import your map image, you'll be asked what file path to use for the source map's image. For ease, it's preferable to have that source map image in the same folder on your computer as the CC3+ map file, and simply keep the "Store the file's path relative to the current drawing" radio button active - it's the default option for this query panel.]

    Marja Erwin
  • edited October 23

    Well, you might look at this thread to follow my trepidations. It was quite a journey and the people on the board provided a lot of help. I frankly don't remember how I did a lot of things, but perhaps it will be helpful. I am still working on this game, after about 15 years, but the map work is mostly done.

    I have made some changes since the thread terminated by hiding some roads and streams to simplify the map and reduce clutter. The game counters are larger, but the hexes are still 3km.

    The map covers a region of 88km x 70km and the physical map itself is about 176cm x 140cm in 1:50000 scale. A grid square on the map is 2cm x 2cm, but because of the mapping convention, they sometimes become triangles to conform to the earth's surface.

    If you are not using a topographic map, your work should be somewhat easier than mine was.

    Of course, all it may do is confuse you. I don't have CC3+ on my computer at the moment and it has actually been a very long time since I made a map.



    Marja Erwin
  • edited October 24

    Thanks, again.

    I'll need to figure out at least 4 types of map for various projects:

    • Battlefield maps, with entire villages in single hexes. Something like *Panzerblitz*-style and *Prestags*-style maps. Most could be imaginative maps, others specific battlefields. A lot of the same maps should work for ancient and modern battles, especially if I use a top-down view; I've had a lot of trouble trying to draw slopes in CC3. (I tried to link to examples at the Imaginative Strategist,)
    • Pre-1700 regional maps, for both wargaming and historical roleplaying. Most would be specific places. I'm open to side-on views here, like most pre-modern and early modern maps, and most CC3+ styles.
    • Post-1700 regional maps, for both wargaming and historical roleplaying. Most would be specific places. I'd rather use top-down views here, like most late modern and contemporary maps; I'll often need railroads, too; this narrows down the range of styles.
    • Small-scale city maps, with individual buildings, many of which have flat industrial roofs, and with asphalt roads, lane markings, sidewalks, Jersey barriers, etc. I have aerial photos, but they're blurry and have inconsistent angles, so a clean version with a top-down or slightly isometric view might be better.

    Ideally I could create easy-to-read color and black-and-white versions.

    I'm starting with a 1919 regional map. 

    Some other issues:

    • Ctrl-T does *not* change the mouse cursor from an arrow to crosshairs. If it's over the map, it makes the cursor disappear for a moment, but if it's over the buttons, it does nothing at all.
    • I create the Sheet, I move the Sheet up the list until it's just below BACKGROUND, I create the Layer, I make sure I've picked the Sheet and the Layer, I add the image to the Sheet and the Layer, and it goes into some other layer in front of the hex map instead of behind it. I try to move or rotate it, and cannot move or rotate it. I quit CC3+, start at my last good save, and try again, and fail again, and again, and again.
    • I tried pdf, jpeg, and then png images; CC3+ wouldn't import pdf or jpeg, and maybe it can import png but nothing else.
    • P.S. No, I just hadn't clicked on the edge/ If I only click on the edge, I can rotate and move the image afterwards, and if I hide and then show the hex grid, I can get it to reappear.
    • I need a snap grid to make sure the coastine, rivers, railroads, cities, etc. are in the right places, and meet at the right places. But I need something much grained than the hex-level snap grid for these.
  • P.S. I often get a strobing effect, with the image and the hex grid, alternately flashing. I am photosensitive, so this isn't safe for me.

  • P.P.S. It's easier, and for me it's safer, to use the distance, bearing, and coordinate functions under the Info menu, and calculate the non-visual scaling, rotation, and move functions based on these. Bearing and rotation are tricky; in CC3+, 0 is due right, 90 is due up, 80 is due left, and 270 is due down, and rotation is degrees counterclockwise/widdershins instead of clockwise.

    Royal Scribe
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 82 images Cartographer

    Ctrl-T does *not* change the mouse cursor from an arrow to crosshairs. If it's over the map, it makes the cursor disappear for a moment, but if it's over the buttons, it does nothing at all.

    Note that this is only applicable when in the middle of a command that support crosshairs (which is most commands where you need to place something at a specific point), it doesn't globally change the pointer in CC3+. Try placing a symbol for example. With the symbol at your cursor, you can use the shortcut to switch between crosshairs and regular mouse pointer (you may need to move your mouse after switching so CC3+ actually redraws things)

    I create the Sheet, I move the Sheet up the list until it's just below BACKGROUND, I create the Layer, I make sure I've picked the Sheet and the Layer, I add the image to the Sheet and the Layer, and it goes into some other layer in front of the hex map instead of behind it.

    Did you issue a Redraw after placing the image? For performance reasons, whenever you place something in CC3+ it is simply drawn on top of everything else, as this prevents a full re-render being required for each entity placed. Only after executing a redraw (or scrolling or zooming) will the entity be rendered at it's actual position in the drawing stack. Also make sure the desired sheet is actually set as the active sheet (the checkbox), it is not enough just having it selected in the sheets dialog.

    I tried pdf, jpeg, and then png images; CC3+ wouldn't import pdf or jpeg, and maybe it can import png but nothing else.

    CC3+ doesn't support pdf files, but it certainly support jpeg, png and bmp. I use the first two quite often. Jpeg is only supported when inserting an image file into the drawing (Draw -> Insert file), you can't use jpg for symbols and fills, but that doesn't seem to be what you are doing here anyway.

    I need a snap grid to make sure the coastine, rivers, railroads, cities, etc. are in the right places, and meet at the right places. But I need something much grained than the hex-level snap grid for these.

    You can make a much more fine-grained snap grid than the visible map grid. Just right click the grid button in the lower right, and you can configure the grid, for example by adding more snap divisions.

    Bearing and rotation are tricky; in CC3+, 0 is due right, 90 is due up, 80 is due left, and 270 is due down, and rotation is degrees counterclockwise/widdershins instead of clockwise.

    CC3+, having it's origins as a CAD program use the standard grid system used in technical drawings, mathematics and graphing. Unfortunately this is different from the compass system used for maps, so I can understand your confusion here, but otherwise it is probably the most common grid system you'll find both in computing and outside.

    QuentenLoopysuemike robelWyvern
  • edited October 24

    P.P.P.S. It's easy to add an image to the wrong sheet. Unfortunately, the "copy to sheet" and "move to sheet" commands don't work, so you may have to delete it, add it again, measure it again, etc. And if crosshairs only work over the map, then I can't use them as an alternative cursor to read the tooltips.

  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 41 images Cartographer

    While you are learning how to use CC3, Marja, I wondered if this recorded live mapping session might give you some general insights into hex mapping in CC3+.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e_ZGF85C7k

  • I finally have 2 basemaps, properly aligned; one is in BITMAP-EB, and the other BITMAP so I can check each one.

    I also have 2 hexgrids, 1 at 32 km/hex for the final hex map, and the other at 6.4 km/hex; the smaller hex grid is the snap grid; it's important to draw the bigger one 1st. I used bright red for these reference hex grids. I'm going to erase them and replace them with a single gray hex grid for the final version.

    I started tracing the coasts and rivers. The default options keep trying to curve and/or fractalize everything. Setting a line width of 2 and selecting the zig-zag and polygon options on the right toolbar looks like a better option, at least for rivers. I would like to see the nodes, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet.

  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 41 images Cartographer

    You can't see the nodes themselves in CC, except by knowing there must be one at an angle in the line for there to be an angle there. With smooth lines you can press CTRL+F to 'toggle frames'. It switches on or off a representation of the straight line equivalent of the smooth line and indicates where the nodes are.

  • Yeah, I'm trying to see if I have intermediate nodes on some of the straight lines; I can move a node to check, but it'd be handy just to see. LibreOffice had little boxes for each node. The CC3+ user manual shows little circles on each node.

    I'm also going to need to figure out how to show which rivers are navigable and where. There used to be difficult though not-impassible rapids on the Dnipro between Katerynoslav/Dnipro and Oleksandrivsk/Zaporizhzhya, splitting the river into 2 separate navigable sections. I could use perpendicular lines, and/or different colors. I used blue and gray colors in the original.

  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 41 images Cartographer

    Yes, the button images show little circles as representations of the nodes, even though there are no little circles shown in the drawing. Those little circles are symbols that make the button icons easier to understand at a glance.

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