Time needed to map a city? OK, working only as and when able, not to deadlines or for money, but the earliest file-date I have connected to my Embra City mapping for the Community Atlas is 7 July 2021, and the final versions of the last maps were submitted for the Atlas on 4 May 2022. And yes, not a standard city by any means, but of comparable detail to some certainly, and with full notes for every individual map and drawing also provided, so not far short of ten months in total (59 maps/drawings).
Creating cities - actually ANY settlements - are not "quick" or "minor" tasks.
I agree with Wyvern. It took me from Jan 2019 to June 2020 to finish Dun Fingolfin, the largest city (to date) in the Atlas - largest in sense that all buildings are shown individually.
Finally worked out a method I'm happy with to do the high density, poor blocks (of which there is quite a few). The individual buildings just weren't working for me. So what I'm going to do is draw the roads first, copy the outline of the roads to the building sheet which has been setup with a color key effect and change the colour to 6. Then, using the block building drawing tool, fill the large block. Finally, change the colour to 6 and using the various line, path and poly CAD tools split the big block into smaller sections, leaving gaps where I can put some open areas and so on.
Here is a low-res detail veiw (area not completed):
Here is the low-res 'print' view:
If I were more technically savvy, I'd write a macro to do the copying of the road outline and changing the properties to 0.5 units wider and the colour to 6...
If I were more technically savvy, I'd write a macro to do the copying of the road outline and changing the properties to 0.5 units wider and the colour to 6...
I'm afraid I can't remember the name of the tool, but I recall Remy doing a video where he traced a parallel line to create a railroad. Would this be helpful to you?
The really lazy folk would use the Color Key effect to knock out the roads from that block. https://forum.profantasy.com/discussion/comment/35388 showed just how lazy some folks can be. Without effects, it will be weird pink roads, though.
@jslayton and @Fersus That's exactly what I'm doing. Colour Key is a brilliant, highly useful effect. I use it a lot; one really good use is for dungeon maps with a wall mask, say the Ancient Tombs style for example, to show the grid only in the dungeon parts. Put the grid sheet just above the floor sheet, put your wall mask sheet with colour key BELOW the walls sheet, create a polygonal drawing tool filled with colour 6, trace your walls (make sure you set the tool to draw only on the wall mask sheet) and then move the mask sheet back on top of the walls. Viola! Job done.
The copying and changing color and splitting things seemed like a lot of work, the precise level of work that Color Key was intended to avoid.
Now if I would just get around to letting SYMFILL use HOUSE definitions, things would be a lot easier for creating oversized cities. Maybe some sort of Voronoi fill pattern, too. And a way to apply noise to existing stuff (vaguely like FRX but only moving existing stuff a little)?
If you really want geometry and not effects tricks, CONTOURSMX (the CONTOURSM variant that lets you exclude stuff) with an offset of 0 might work. I can't remember if it works correctly with wide lines, though.
Here's another update. The highly dense, poor residential areas are basically done. I may make a few tweaks here and there later. This image is at 100ppi, it looks way better at 300ppi! But the file is too big to post.
I've changed my mind - again... Seriously, I've no idea what I'm doing; I'm so far out of my comfort zone and the sheer size of this city is messing with my head.
Anyhow, here is another version with individual buildings rather than the block and colour key effect... I think I'll stick with this, I've just got to get the bloody thing done! Dungeons are so much easier!
I've never done this before, so maybe this suggestion is total nonsense, but what if you just fill the dense poor areas with random houses using the "fill with symbols" command? like Ralf did in with the trees in the last live session but with houses instead?
you have the big streets as guidelines, so you could just draw polygons in each of these areas and then fill it with houses. poor areas are not that well maintained and abandoned houses might get reused/repurposed/rebuilt and there's probably not that much incentive to really check the building regulations, so the ensuing chaos of the fill with symbols effect could be explained that way. wherever there are too big gaps there just naturally streets are formed and where houses overlap you can delete a few of those.
I guess that would be way less work than actually placing all of them/setting up streets in advance that might end up being to close to each other resulting in lots of overlap anyways...
Only 2-3 months work to go - you might finish it before you die - at least that is what I think every time I start a big city. And I actually love doing big cities.
@Fersus Well, that is a bloody sensational idea. It never crossed my mind! I'll try that on the bottom of the peninsula and report back.
@Quenten I think it's the time pressure + the fact that I've really no clue with cities, that's frustrating me the most; I'm a month overdue on a revised deadline as it is! When you take out 11 hours for work (inc travelling time), family time, gaming time, there just doesn't seem to be enough hours left to get this done...particularly when it's a map type you're not comfortable with...
If you want to try SYMFILL, don't forget that there is also a SYMFILLX command that is the analogue of the Color Key effect (X is for eXclude, which is Color Key's purpose). Pick the big block, exclude the streets, and let it go!
This is it, no more stuffing about, I've just got to get it done.
What I've done is used Google Maps for some inspiration; took a screen shot of some medieval cities of the correct proportions, imported them as bitmaps (on separate sheets obviously) and used them as a base for the street layout. I'm thinking this looks OK. Obviously, still a hell of a lot of work to do...
I totally have respect for your effort! Going to such length to get a realistic picture of how medieval towns might have looked like! That's awesome! I'm sure You'll make a great map!
May I ask how you've gotten this commission? Especially as you mentioned that something of this size was out of your comfort zone? Have you been asked and you thought: well, that'll be a challenge, let's try! Or did you apply for it? If so: how did you get to the decission to do so, if you where thinking that that might get over your head? I've no idea how this commissioning thing works and am really curious how that came along for you...
@Fersus In response to your question re commissions.
It started a couple of years ago. There was a monthly challenge over at the Cartographers Guild to build a random dungeon, after some fairly ordinary efforts, I re-did it, wrote up some adventure text to go with and submitted it as a One Page Dungeon entry, The Crypt of the Witch King or Who's Your Mummy. There is a CC3+ version in the Old School dungeon style in my gallery. Anyhow, fast forward a bit, and I pitched an idea to the publisher of Mythras, my preferred FRPG, to produce one-shot adventures like the Savage Worlds One Sheets, I also mentioned that I do cartography and submitted my OPD entry as a sample. That led to some commissions for their Classic Fantasy line, primarily B&W old-school style dungeon maps. I've done a couple of other projects for them as well and I've been doing all their CF stuff since (you can see the latest in my Commissions album, the Ancient Tombs style). This is by far the largest city I've undertaken - and if I get others, which I think is likely given conversations I've had with the CF line manager, I will be charging a lot more, I can tell you! So that's it. All of my commissions, apart from a private one that I've yet to complete (sorry Allan!), have been for them. They are great to work for and very professionally run.
Been a little while. You all know how it is, real life and so on. Anyhow here is another update. I think I'm starting to get a feel for it now and I'm quite happy with how it's looking. It probably won't be demographically accurate but I'm going to try and not fudge it too much and make it as close to the text as I can. To do so I need around 4600 commoner houses (assuming an average of 3 per household), 2500 burgher houses (at 4 per household) and 200 noble houses (at 5 per household).
Well, this is a bloody slow process. Thankfully the publisher's not in a hurry!
Here is another update. Hopefully, I'll get this finished this week while I'm isolating after testing positive to COVID late last week. The wife and I are fully vaccinated, so thankfully are illness' were only mild...
Comments
Seems about right, I think. What did you base those numbers on? And did you account for two and three storey buildings
@Quenten the numbers are from the sketch map and supplement text. All I’m doing is drawing the map based on that.
Time needed to map a city? OK, working only as and when able, not to deadlines or for money, but the earliest file-date I have connected to my Embra City mapping for the Community Atlas is 7 July 2021, and the final versions of the last maps were submitted for the Atlas on 4 May 2022. And yes, not a standard city by any means, but of comparable detail to some certainly, and with full notes for every individual map and drawing also provided, so not far short of ten months in total (59 maps/drawings).
Creating cities - actually ANY settlements - are not "quick" or "minor" tasks.
I agree with Wyvern. It took me from Jan 2019 to June 2020 to finish Dun Fingolfin, the largest city (to date) in the Atlas - largest in sense that all buildings are shown individually.
https://atlas.monsen.cc/atlas/peredur/hi/dun fingolfin.png
Hi Folks,
Finally worked out a method I'm happy with to do the high density, poor blocks (of which there is quite a few). The individual buildings just weren't working for me. So what I'm going to do is draw the roads first, copy the outline of the roads to the building sheet which has been setup with a color key effect and change the colour to 6. Then, using the block building drawing tool, fill the large block. Finally, change the colour to 6 and using the various line, path and poly CAD tools split the big block into smaller sections, leaving gaps where I can put some open areas and so on.
Here is a low-res detail veiw (area not completed):
Here is the low-res 'print' view:
If I were more technically savvy, I'd write a macro to do the copying of the road outline and changing the properties to 0.5 units wider and the colour to 6...
If I were more technically savvy, I'd write a macro to do the copying of the road outline and changing the properties to 0.5 units wider and the colour to 6...
I'm afraid I can't remember the name of the tool, but I recall Remy doing a video where he traced a parallel line to create a railroad. Would this be helpful to you?
I know the video you mean, it's not quite what I'm after. From memory that used the offset tool/command.
The really lazy folk would use the Color Key effect to knock out the roads from that block. https://forum.profantasy.com/discussion/comment/35388 showed just how lazy some folks can be. Without effects, it will be weird pink roads, though.
I was just about to say the same!
Color key is such a powerful tool! And I don't think it's lazy at all ^^
@jslayton and @Fersus That's exactly what I'm doing. Colour Key is a brilliant, highly useful effect. I use it a lot; one really good use is for dungeon maps with a wall mask, say the Ancient Tombs style for example, to show the grid only in the dungeon parts. Put the grid sheet just above the floor sheet, put your wall mask sheet with colour key BELOW the walls sheet, create a polygonal drawing tool filled with colour 6, trace your walls (make sure you set the tool to draw only on the wall mask sheet) and then move the mask sheet back on top of the walls. Viola! Job done.
The copying and changing color and splitting things seemed like a lot of work, the precise level of work that Color Key was intended to avoid.
Now if I would just get around to letting SYMFILL use HOUSE definitions, things would be a lot easier for creating oversized cities. Maybe some sort of Voronoi fill pattern, too. And a way to apply noise to existing stuff (vaguely like FRX but only moving existing stuff a little)?
The copying and changing color and splitting things seemed like a lot of work, the precise level of work that Color Key was intended to avoid.
Ahh, I get you now. The light bulb just turned on...And yes, that will save quite a bit of work... Thanks.
If you really want geometry and not effects tricks, CONTOURSMX (the CONTOURSM variant that lets you exclude stuff) with an offset of 0 might work. I can't remember if it works correctly with wide lines, though.
Another update. It's getting there slowly but surely!
Here's another update. The highly dense, poor residential areas are basically done. I may make a few tweaks here and there later. This image is at 100ppi, it looks way better at 300ppi! But the file is too big to post.
Now to build the rest of the city...
I've changed my mind - again... Seriously, I've no idea what I'm doing; I'm so far out of my comfort zone and the sheer size of this city is messing with my head.
Anyhow, here is another version with individual buildings rather than the block and colour key effect... I think I'll stick with this, I've just got to get the bloody thing done! Dungeons are so much easier!
I've never done this before, so maybe this suggestion is total nonsense, but what if you just fill the dense poor areas with random houses using the "fill with symbols" command? like Ralf did in with the trees in the last live session but with houses instead?
you have the big streets as guidelines, so you could just draw polygons in each of these areas and then fill it with houses. poor areas are not that well maintained and abandoned houses might get reused/repurposed/rebuilt and there's probably not that much incentive to really check the building regulations, so the ensuing chaos of the fill with symbols effect could be explained that way. wherever there are too big gaps there just naturally streets are formed and where houses overlap you can delete a few of those.
I guess that would be way less work than actually placing all of them/setting up streets in advance that might end up being to close to each other resulting in lots of overlap anyways...
Only 2-3 months work to go - you might finish it before you die - at least that is what I think every time I start a big city. And I actually love doing big cities.
@Fersus Well, that is a bloody sensational idea. It never crossed my mind! I'll try that on the bottom of the peninsula and report back.
@Quenten I think it's the time pressure + the fact that I've really no clue with cities, that's frustrating me the most; I'm a month overdue on a revised deadline as it is! When you take out 11 hours for work (inc travelling time), family time, gaming time, there just doesn't seem to be enough hours left to get this done...particularly when it's a map type you're not comfortable with...
If you want to try SYMFILL, don't forget that there is also a SYMFILLX command that is the analogue of the Color Key effect (X is for eXclude, which is Color Key's purpose). Pick the big block, exclude the streets, and let it go!
Ok. Here is version 5...
This is it, no more stuffing about, I've just got to get it done.
What I've done is used Google Maps for some inspiration; took a screen shot of some medieval cities of the correct proportions, imported them as bitmaps (on separate sheets obviously) and used them as a base for the street layout. I'm thinking this looks OK. Obviously, still a hell of a lot of work to do...
I totally have respect for your effort! Going to such length to get a realistic picture of how medieval towns might have looked like! That's awesome! I'm sure You'll make a great map!
May I ask how you've gotten this commission? Especially as you mentioned that something of this size was out of your comfort zone? Have you been asked and you thought: well, that'll be a challenge, let's try! Or did you apply for it? If so: how did you get to the decission to do so, if you where thinking that that might get over your head? I've no idea how this commissioning thing works and am really curious how that came along for you...
@Fersus In response to your question re commissions.
It started a couple of years ago. There was a monthly challenge over at the Cartographers Guild to build a random dungeon, after some fairly ordinary efforts, I re-did it, wrote up some adventure text to go with and submitted it as a One Page Dungeon entry, The Crypt of the Witch King or Who's Your Mummy. There is a CC3+ version in the Old School dungeon style in my gallery. Anyhow, fast forward a bit, and I pitched an idea to the publisher of Mythras, my preferred FRPG, to produce one-shot adventures like the Savage Worlds One Sheets, I also mentioned that I do cartography and submitted my OPD entry as a sample. That led to some commissions for their Classic Fantasy line, primarily B&W old-school style dungeon maps. I've done a couple of other projects for them as well and I've been doing all their CF stuff since (you can see the latest in my Commissions album, the Ancient Tombs style). This is by far the largest city I've undertaken - and if I get others, which I think is likely given conversations I've had with the CF line manager, I will be charging a lot more, I can tell you! So that's it. All of my commissions, apart from a private one that I've yet to complete (sorry Allan!), have been for them. They are great to work for and very professionally run.
I see, thanks for your insights!
You're welcome!
Here is where I left off last night...
I sent the publisher an email including the above picture and here is their response:
I think it's looking lovely, and I'm really happy with the style and colour choices. I think the complete version is going to be stunning
I'd say I'm on the right track...
Hiya Folks,
Been a little while. You all know how it is, real life and so on. Anyhow here is another update. I think I'm starting to get a feel for it now and I'm quite happy with how it's looking. It probably won't be demographically accurate but I'm going to try and not fudge it too much and make it as close to the text as I can. To do so I need around 4600 commoner houses (assuming an average of 3 per household), 2500 burgher houses (at 4 per household) and 200 noble houses (at 5 per household).
You've certainly done quite a bit more :)
Well, this is a bloody slow process. Thankfully the publisher's not in a hurry!
Here is another update. Hopefully, I'll get this finished this week while I'm isolating after testing positive to COVID late last week. The wife and I are fully vaccinated, so thankfully are illness' were only mild...