Well it could be used to pick colours for creating map files for City style buildings?
I've already done a set of my own that way, but again, it would have been more useful if I had set the shape so that there were faces pointing north, south, east and west - that being the normal orientation of buildings drawn as City symbols.
The shape this rosette would describe if it was used as itself with a suitable bitmap of roof tiles is of a concave spire with a hole at the centre.
Even if you haven't a straight compass facing face, the difference between that and the neighbor on either side of the line is only 5 degrees though, for a minimal difference. Probably not noticeable at all.
I think the rosette will probably only ever be a curiosity for most people. There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in actually creating new shaded symbols. I think it must be one of my little obsessions :P
Its all explained in wonderful detail in the Tome, but just to quickly explain:
A shaded building bitmap looks as flat as a pancake in the folder, like this one (one of mine)
[Image_10244]
(its just a small hut-sized section of a building block set I made)
To know how to treat the two sides of the roof as shaded polygons in the map, CC3 requires a second file, called a map file, which consists of the colours that dictate facing angle and roof pitch. This is the 'map' file for the above building:
[Image_10245]
The map file can be created in GIMP by editing a copy of the bitmap file, so that the extent is exactly the same as the roof. It must be exactly the same size and shape as the bitmap file, and the filename must also be exactly the same, except for the addition of the word '_map' at the end of the filename. This is to tell CC3 what to do with this strangely coloured file.
When the new symbol is loaded via the Symbol Manager the map file is associated with the bitmap file and treated not as a symbol in its own right, but as additional information about the main bitmap file - the information that will allow CC3 to shade the roof top as if it was made up of two shaded polygons.
Here is the building arranged in an array in a map. You can see how the map file is interpreted so that when the angle is changed the lighting also changes, even though the map file remains unchanged. It is the information it contains that tells CC3 what this building should look like, no matter what angle its pasted at.
[Image_10247]
This, though it is a very very simple building compared to the beautiful built in building symbols available in City Designer 3, is the principle on which they are all built
Ah yes, I vaguely remember reading something about that a while back. I had not thought to use your color wheel for that though. Not a bad idea at all.
The whole thing is explained much better in the TOME. I think its on page 315, or thereabouts
Once you've got the hang of it, building map files are actually pretty simple. It only gets complicated at the 'join' (due east), where the intensity of the red shading suddenly jumps from 0 to 255 in a single degree. If you are careful, though, you can use a thin line such as a roof ridge to divide the two very contrasting shades at that point
Posted By: LoopysueThere doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in actually creating new shaded symbols.
I think the complexity is what scares people away. While not that complex really, it is still more work than just telling CC3+ to import a folder of .png's, and then start using them as symbols.
Well I thoroughly recommend people to have a go making at least one shaded building symbol in their lives - just for the hell of it - to learn something new about how CC3 works.
Same with varicolour symbols.
And in case you are wondering, Tony, the extra file containing the data telling CC3 what parts of the symbol to do a different colour according to the one selected in the palette at the time of pasting the symbol is the file with the '_vari' extension to the filename.
They are a bit more complicated than map files, but even more fun because of it
It's nice that CC3+ supports a style of normal maps, but it would be nice if it supported bump maps as well. That way you can just use the height field and not have to worry about facing angles. Lots of folks seem to have a much easier time with painting a gray map for the height of something. Sort of like the Displace filter accepts a standard XYZ normal map or a bump map (and Texturize accepts bump maps).
It would make relief shading a map in CC3 a piece of cake, but wouldn't it also require a sort of inline bitmap editor window where you could paint and adjust the height map as necessary?
I say that because I really can't see people hopping in and out of GIMP to make their height map adjustments. I think they would be more likely to use it if the editor was built into CC3 itself.
I have a feeling, though, that it would be ridiculously difficult to incorporate such a bitmap thing into a FastCAD engine?
...hm...fascinating. I've read the section in the Tome, as well, and comprehended it as being too technically difficult as to confuse. But, that may be that I EXPECTED it to be difficult just by looking at it. I suspect that actually doing some hands-on playing with this, people would find it much easier than they expect (well, people like me, anyway! I can read something or even watch a tutorial video, but until I actually DO it myself I don't truly LEARN it).
When I was thinking of using bump maps as a wish list item, it was the same sort of thing as with the normal maps: use a bitmap painted in an external editor to provide the bump map and then convert the bump map internally into a normal map. From a programmer's perspective, it's not a huge thing to implement and my experience suggests that many more folks are likely to figure out the "brightness is height" than "shades of purple is angle that things face". This is specially true for 3D modelers, because the normal maps that are used in ProFantasy's symbols don't correspond to what most of the industry does for their tangent-space normal maps.
And yes, incorporating a paint engine into the FastCAD core would be a non-trivial task.
Scott - I've given you the two files for a very simple building above. You might feel more comfortable having a closer look at them and then having a go at it yourself with a similar simple building.
You could try reducing the width of the roof ridge (which is a bit unsightly and wide in its current form), or changing the cathedral tile texture out for some other roofing material?
You only need to remember that if you reduce the width of the roof ridge you will also need to adjust the map file
Posted By: jslaytonWhen I was thinking of using bump maps as a wish list item, it was the same sort of thing as with the normal maps: use a bitmap painted in an external editor to provide the bump map and then convert the bump map internally into a normal map. From a programmer's perspective, it's not a huge thing to implement and my experience suggests that many more folks are likely to figure out the "brightness is height" than "shades of purple is angle that things face". This is specially true for 3D modelers, because the normal maps that are used in ProFantasy's symbols don't correspond to what most of the industry does for their tangent-space normal maps.
And yes, incorporating a paint engine into the FastCAD core would be a non-trivial task.
I'd use it
I was just trying to think how to encourage other people who aren't so familiar with GIMP to have a go at all these things when I suggested it.
Mind you, we could always have a new mapping competition to get things going a bit - 'Best Relief Map of... 2018(?)... 2019(?)... whenever
Thinking more on this height map v CC3 purple angle/pitch map.
If it was done, and we had a way of using height maps to generate relief in a CC3 map, you'd still need to keep the shaded building system working - not just for backward compatibility, but also to be certain that a building was never going to accidentally add its own height map to the environment and cause the sum to be more than '1' - higher than the maximum 'totally white' height allowed for the calculations.
(So what I'm saying, Tony, Scott, anyone else who's interested in making map files for shaded building symbols, is that there is still very much a point in learning how to do it, because its not going to disappear overnight, or anything )
Oh I'll learn it alright. I will probably even make a tutorial video about it for my YouTube channel too. It just wasn't on my list of things I'm trying to do yet.
Yes, I will probably give it a try, Sue, although I'm having an extra-dumb day today, and I'm already confused and flustered trying to edit some symbols and symbol catalogs, so it won't be today! LOL!
Its not so difficult when you have a go, Scott, but I know what you mean. I've not done anything since making that rosette. Deciding on the exact shade for each of those little swatches has plumb run me out of thinking processes for the day :P
Its been quiet in here for some time. Any progress on your texture set, Sue? I know you've been under the weather, so I certainly understand if you've put the whole thing on hold for now. I'm just anxious, that's all!
Awesome stuff in this thread. Not sure I know enough to know all of what I read though
BEautiful textures, I have to say the water ones are amazing. I think they are going to be my favorite by far. Don't have a need for them atm, but going to bookmark this thread.
Any plans to put this all together when you finalize your LoopyStyle?
Oh hello there! Aren't you also LordEntrails over at the Guild?
(I'm Mouse over there )
Thanks for the compliment!
There are no firm plans just yet, but Remy has offered to host the collection when I'm done with it, since they will be 2000 pi square, which is too big to upload here
(btw, Win 10/intel have done something really wierd with their settings or something, since my broadband now controls itself entirely and I can't stay online for more than a few seconds. this is actually the 6th time I have tried to post this comment, and to do it I've had to log out of my Windows partition altogether and move over to my Linux partition. Is anyone else having the same problem?)
Comments
I've already done a set of my own that way, but again, it would have been more useful if I had set the shape so that there were faces pointing north, south, east and west - that being the normal orientation of buildings drawn as City symbols.
The shape this rosette would describe if it was used as itself with a suitable bitmap of roof tiles is of a concave spire with a hole at the centre.
I think the rosette will probably only ever be a curiosity for most people. There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in actually creating new shaded symbols. I think it must be one of my little obsessions :P
A shaded building bitmap looks as flat as a pancake in the folder, like this one (one of mine)
[Image_10244]
(its just a small hut-sized section of a building block set I made)
To know how to treat the two sides of the roof as shaded polygons in the map, CC3 requires a second file, called a map file, which consists of the colours that dictate facing angle and roof pitch. This is the 'map' file for the above building:
[Image_10245]
The map file can be created in GIMP by editing a copy of the bitmap file, so that the extent is exactly the same as the roof. It must be exactly the same size and shape as the bitmap file, and the filename must also be exactly the same, except for the addition of the word '_map' at the end of the filename. This is to tell CC3 what to do with this strangely coloured file.
When the new symbol is loaded via the Symbol Manager the map file is associated with the bitmap file and treated not as a symbol in its own right, but as additional information about the main bitmap file - the information that will allow CC3 to shade the roof top as if it was made up of two shaded polygons.
[Image_10247]
This, though it is a very very simple building compared to the beautiful built in building symbols available in City Designer 3, is the principle on which they are all built
Once you've got the hang of it, building map files are actually pretty simple. It only gets complicated at the 'join' (due east), where the intensity of the red shading suddenly jumps from 0 to 255 in a single degree. If you are careful, though, you can use a thin line such as a roof ridge to divide the two very contrasting shades at that point
Same with varicolour symbols.
And in case you are wondering, Tony, the extra file containing the data telling CC3 what parts of the symbol to do a different colour according to the one selected in the palette at the time of pasting the symbol is the file with the '_vari' extension to the filename.
They are a bit more complicated than map files, but even more fun because of it
It would make relief shading a map in CC3 a piece of cake, but wouldn't it also require a sort of inline bitmap editor window where you could paint and adjust the height map as necessary?
I say that because I really can't see people hopping in and out of GIMP to make their height map adjustments. I think they would be more likely to use it if the editor was built into CC3 itself.
I have a feeling, though, that it would be ridiculously difficult to incorporate such a bitmap thing into a FastCAD engine?
And yes, incorporating a paint engine into the FastCAD core would be a non-trivial task.
You could try reducing the width of the roof ridge (which is a bit unsightly and wide in its current form), or changing the cathedral tile texture out for some other roofing material?
You only need to remember that if you reduce the width of the roof ridge you will also need to adjust the map file
Have a play, Scott
I was just trying to think how to encourage other people who aren't so familiar with GIMP to have a go at all these things when I suggested it.
Mind you, we could always have a new mapping competition to get things going a bit - 'Best Relief Map of... 2018(?)... 2019(?)... whenever
If it was done, and we had a way of using height maps to generate relief in a CC3 map, you'd still need to keep the shaded building system working - not just for backward compatibility, but also to be certain that a building was never going to accidentally add its own height map to the environment and cause the sum to be more than '1' - higher than the maximum 'totally white' height allowed for the calculations.
(So what I'm saying, Tony, Scott, anyone else who's interested in making map files for shaded building symbols, is that there is still very much a point in learning how to do it, because its not going to disappear overnight, or anything
Still have a few flu complications. sinusitis, feeling a bit exhausted - that sort of thing.
I'm just mulling around for a bit, but I'll be back on the case soon.
Thanks for asking
BEautiful textures, I have to say the water ones are amazing. I think they are going to be my favorite by far. Don't have a need for them atm, but going to bookmark this thread.
Any plans to put this all together when you finalize your LoopyStyle?
(I'm Mouse over there
Thanks for the compliment!
There are no firm plans just yet, but Remy has offered to host the collection when I'm done with it, since they will be 2000 pi square, which is too big to upload here
I'll keep my eye on you, err, at least on the thread. Don't want to be creepy or anything!
(btw, Win 10/intel have done something really wierd with their settings or something, since my broadband now controls itself entirely and I can't stay online for more than a few seconds. this is actually the 6th time I have tried to post this comment, and to do it I've had to log out of my Windows partition altogether and move over to my Linux partition. Is anyone else having the same problem?)
MS seems determined to drive all of their customers away. And they are doing an excellent job of it.
I'm getting VERY familiar with this particular screen appearing in my browser. My machine just isn't fast enough to talk with the servers.
[Image_10278]
And as you can tell from the fact that I managed to upload a small image, even - when I DO get through everything is perfectly normal.
It just the getting through bit that has my machine stymied.