And I love it when you get all 'informational'. It makes excellent reading, and gives me plenty to think about.
Grey.... Hmmmn. Young growth.... Hmmmn. Joe rushing around the garden, slashing at all those poor little aspen sprouts... LOL! You poor thing! I used to have to mow my lawn (in the days when I had a garden) every other day just to keep the horsetail fern at bay from the garden on the one side, and the stag's horn suckers at bay, from the garden on the other side. LOL
Posted By: jslaytonThe aspen tree would look better if it was under the taller trees, I think.
You may have also gone a bit too dark with the self-shadowing of the branches. That dark of a color would work when there are leaves on the tree, but is probably too strong for just empty branches.
Thanks Joe, I think the aspen might need to be a lot smaller than the oaks as well, but it kind of nearly disappeared when I did that to it. LOL
I agree also with the shadows. I put them on the sheet I had left over from when there were trees in the map before, and forgot to adjust the effects on it.
Posted By: jslaytonI also turned to the mechanical aid of a lawn mower, but I will admit to a bit of a maniacal smile as I did it.
The image that conjures is just hysterically funny, since I can't imagine you being a violent maniac of any kind. LOL!!! Poor, poooooor, tiny little trembling aspen shoots!
Posted By: umberfaneUtterly stunning map.. A truly beautiful map you have made..
As per your recommendations, Joe - aspen beneath the oak, and a reduced intensity shadow. (Unfortunately I haven't got around to greying the oaks yet, but I will have it done later on).
Posted By: jslayton...You may have also gone a bit too dark with the self-shadowing of the branches. That dark of a color would work when there are leaves on the tree, but is probably too strong for just empty branches.
Ah. Again, I think I have misunderstood you. You mean the contrast on the oak branches between the centre of each branch and the edge?
I think so too - makes them look a bit cartoony, doesn't it.
I'll have a look at that later when I tone down the brown a bit.
Happy accident, though. I got the wrong end of the stick, toned down the sheet effects shadow, and put something else right by accident
I'm busy working on them at the moment - having spent half the evening staring at hundreds of photos of actual oak tree bark online. I'm not going to worry too much about the texture, but I'd rather like to get the colour right
EDIT: I spent ages trying to thin down the cartoony line around the edge of everything, figured that I couldn't, then painted the whole thing black again ready to try a bevel on them again, but then Corel Photopaint kept crashing on me every time I tried to re-do the bevel, and it was a couple of hours before I realised I could do a much better bevel by just reducing the mask by a pixel each time and painting the remainder with the next palest shade of grey. Doh!
Well... I have a foliage solution... but I'm not sure you're going to like it all that much.
After spending about a week trying out various splodging techniques with various fixed 'brushes' in my archaic version of Corel Photopaint, I didn't really have anything to show for it, except a few reasonably attractive blob shapes. I just couldn't seem to get the leafiness right.
Then I remembered I had Vue Pioneer (the free pocket version of the 3D animation package used for films like Avatar) and started messing around with the trees in that, till I came up with a solution. Its a bit limited because I only have so many kinds of trees, and none of them seem to be the ones that I want. However, there are distinct pluses to using Vue, which during rendering allows you to simultaneously create a pin-sharp alpha mask, so there are no transparency problems (unless you forget to turn the ground behind the tree in the 3D scene completely transparent and non reflective, and zero the atmosphere settings to get rid of haze and fog etc).
Here is the result - the foliage on this little tree is a rather acidic green, but that is one of the few things I can actually change in the free version of the software (The pro version is well over £1000, and way beyond both my pocket and my poor little laptop!).
I just wanted to know what you thought about the option of using this (and other similar randomly grown trees) to generate canopy shapes for the hand drawn winter trees, turning them into spring/summer/fall trees.
I think it looks very good. Honestly, even the color is okay, but you definitely want to make multiple color options. If you made it an actual symbol, rather than just a PNG that you place and then copy everywhere, you may want to experiment with making varicolor versions, too.
@Dogtag: I thought I was making symbols by creating transparent pngs and placing them in the User folder, then using them just like symbols. I can't get the hang of that create symbol feature in CC3. I've only got it to work once, and then it was by accident. (I can't remember how I did it now).
Varicolour is a whole new ball game on top of that as well.
You should always put your symbols in a symbol catalog before ever using them on a map. It sounds to me as if you are creating them and using them immediately, so therefore, you should also start on the symbol catalog immediately, not delay until you have a complete collection.
By putting them in a symbol catalog, you get multiple advantages - The symbol gets access to CC3's multiple resolution system, which speeds up redrawing by only rendering the quality required for the current zoom level. - Symbols can be organized. - You can apply symbol properties, like sheet, random transformations (random) collections, varicolor, control points, etc - You can tweak the scale (images should be scaled properly before using them, but having it as a symbol adds extra flexibility without modifying the source image) - A symbol can be built from more than one image file for additional flexibility. - and more...
There's not much damage right now. The only home made pngs on the map are mostly in that tiny section I've been using to test the trees, which I will delete once the testing is done.
I've spent the entire day creating and rendering trees and bits of trees in Vue, ready for a big 'tree bake' tomorrow, using the aspen I pasted an example of in the last image, and things like this - which I can add fruit or flowers to, and which will also make excellent building blocks for much larger trees.
I haven't even sorted out the alpha mask on them yet, so its still in its original rendered state (reduced to 25 % the size of the original).
My goodness! LOL. That was rather large wasn't it.
Here is a screen shot of all the rendering I've been doing... giving an indication of all the rendering I have yet to do - all the different colour variations and so on.
Since I can't seem to find a tree without any leaves on it, I will still have to draw them by hand. I will also have to draw any fruit and flowers I add to the basic trees.
That is phenominal, Sue. I refuse to call you 'Loopy'sue anymore; 'cause you just ain't loopy! That is fantastic work. It will be years before I ever get that good, if ever. Just remember us poor Dungeon plumbers when you get your reward for this map cause if I have any talent in my whole body, it recognizes the genius in one tiny finger of yours! I am truly in awe of what you've done with CC3+. I hope that someday you'll do what many other people in this crew have done, and produce a how-to video on YouTube. Because we need teachers the caliber of you!
I'm not actually drawing any part of these Vue trees. They are automatically generated by Vue - every branch, twig and leaf randomly generated every time I click the next button All I have to do is ensure the camera is positioned directly above each new tree, and that the whole tree is included in the shot. I'm also making sure that all the images are taken at more or less the same distance, so that all the leaves are the same scale between shots.
The worst bit is waiting ten minutes for each of these images to render, but that can't be helped... and the ONLY drawing I have done so far is the dead trees.
Its not so difficult. Anyone who has already been messing around with landscapes in Vue for a couple of months could have done it the same way. In fact I've lost count of the number of Vue trees I've seen in some of the larger symbol sets that are available for mappers and architects these days.
As for a tutorial? Like I keep saying - I'm useless at stuff like that. Besides, you would fall about laughing at my very English accent, and then you wouldn't learn a thing! LOL
I've posted a screen shot of the Vue interface showing how simple and intuitive it is - and that I'm not really doing very much (other than being too lazy to spend another 6 months actually drawing all these trees)
So, if I have this right, Vue already has the general programming for building trees built in, yes? How do you change them into files that CC3+ can recognize? I really am a tyro at this. I don't even know how to import the Dudjinni icons for CC3+! But, I can tell this much, you have access to a lot more symbols than I do. How did you get them?
I'm sorry if I sound like a complete idiot, but I've only done two maps (and I'm still in the process of writing up the module that goes with the second) so please forgive me if I'm asking stupid questions.
Vue has basic functionality and a small set of free plants, including 5-6 types of tree. You get a unique random member of the chosen species every time you hit the button, but you can't edit it. To do that you have to get the Botanica add-on (which is about £20). Its also a lot easier if you buy a few extra plants, but that's a slippery slope too far for me, since my funds are extremely limited.
I'm not keen on the way Vue advertises what their software can do. I find it misleading, and the purchase of Botanica rather a disappointment. Still... at least I can change the size and colour of the leaves and the length, droop and gnarl of the branches of the 5-6 trees that came free with Vue Pioneer, even if I can't make my own brand new species from scratch with it.
Setting up the scene to take the perfect tree portrait is down to simple experience in how to organise a scene and edit materials to make them do what I want them to do.
I know I said the Vue interface was simple and intuitive, but that's only the main setup shown above. Rendering settings and output controls are at the opposite end of the scale. There is a huge panel of jargon and hundreds of tick box options you have to sift through and work out for yourself more or less what everything does. For example, even though I have had Vue for several months longer than I've been using CC3, it was only yesterday that I worked out how to force Vue to export the alpha mask that went with the image at the same time as rendering the image (the alpha mask is the black and white image that goes with each shot).
Using something like GIMP or PS you combine the rendered image with its alpha mask to give the image genuine png transparency of the kind that will work properly once the png is imported to CC3 and made into a symbol.
I am sorry Ed - Because I use an ancient and very broken version of Photopaint, and know nothing whatsoever about PS (and don't even have time to look at GIMP, which I understand is horrendously user unfreindly) there wouldn't be very much point in me trying to describe that part of the process in detail. I'm one of those shoestring cartographers that only pay for new software when the cranky old stuff I've got is broken beyond repair - ie rendered useless by Windows OS updates. Win 10 just about killed my copy of Photopaint, which only operates for a few minutes at a time before it has an argument with the OS about the allocation of active memory, but I can use it to do really simple stuff like apply an alpha mask to a png, as that only takes a few seconds
If you want to know where all the symbols on the MC map come from - right at the moment the majority are built in CC3/DD3/CD3 symbols that come with the package... a smattering of Bogie's Mapping Objects... and a handful of delightful little sailing vessels that another member (-Jo-) drew for his map of Alycrau, and then offered to let me use just for this map - thanks Jo
Thank you, Sue! You've given me a lot to think about; and no, I'm not an idiot but, occasionally I know that my questions so basic that they sound stupid. Some questions are that way, and it takes me a while to learn. Longer than other people do. I've always wanted to make dungeon modules; but my former crew never let me do it. So I am way behind the curve here; and I'm trying to make up for lost time.
I've been trying to get the colours right on just one tree all night, because rendering lots of different trees in the wrong colours and having to do it all over again would waste a humungous amount of time.
This is a test area of just the one test tree, pasted in the four colours I hope are closest to natural woodland, or parkland. I haven't done any purple foliage trees, or autumnal trees just yet (at least, not any that look right), but they are next.
Comments and critiques welcome - too dark... too light... to intense... not intense enough.... etc
I like the way they look. The green one on the bottom right does seem a bit bright though. I usually only see that bright of a green on a tree when it is an evergreen tree. But that's ok, I still like it. This isn't earth.
The tree in the middle right has foliage but nothing above. Is that intentional, because it looks like a dead tree in the middle of your beautiful forest!
Comments
Grey.... Hmmmn. Young growth.... Hmmmn. Joe rushing around the garden, slashing at all those poor little aspen sprouts... LOL! You poor thing! I used to have to mow my lawn (in the days when I had a garden) every other day just to keep the horsetail fern at bay from the garden on the one side, and the stag's horn suckers at bay, from the garden on the other side. LOL
I agree also with the shadows. I put them on the sheet I had left over from when there were trees in the map before, and forgot to adjust the effects on it. The image that conjures is just hysterically funny, since I can't imagine you being a violent maniac of any kind. LOL!!! Poor, poooooor, tiny little trembling aspen shoots! Thank you Umberfane... :blush (again):
You were right - it looks a ton better
I think so too - makes them look a bit cartoony, doesn't it.
I'll have a look at that later when I tone down the brown a bit.
Happy accident, though. I got the wrong end of the stick, toned down the sheet effects shadow, and put something else right by accident
I'm busy working on them at the moment - having spent half the evening staring at hundreds of photos of actual oak tree bark online. I'm not going to worry too much about the texture, but I'd rather like to get the colour right
EDIT: I spent ages trying to thin down the cartoony line around the edge of everything, figured that I couldn't, then painted the whole thing black again ready to try a bevel on them again, but then Corel Photopaint kept crashing on me every time I tried to re-do the bevel, and it was a couple of hours before I realised I could do a much better bevel by just reducing the mask by a pixel each time and painting the remainder with the next palest shade of grey. Doh!
Still working on it...
After spending about a week trying out various splodging techniques with various fixed 'brushes' in my archaic version of Corel Photopaint, I didn't really have anything to show for it, except a few reasonably attractive blob shapes. I just couldn't seem to get the leafiness right.
Then I remembered I had Vue Pioneer (the free pocket version of the 3D animation package used for films like Avatar) and started messing around with the trees in that, till I came up with a solution. Its a bit limited because I only have so many kinds of trees, and none of them seem to be the ones that I want. However, there are distinct pluses to using Vue, which during rendering allows you to simultaneously create a pin-sharp alpha mask, so there are no transparency problems (unless you forget to turn the ground behind the tree in the 3D scene completely transparent and non reflective, and zero the atmosphere settings to get rid of haze and fog etc).
Here is the result - the foliage on this little tree is a rather acidic green, but that is one of the few things I can actually change in the free version of the software (The pro version is well over £1000, and way beyond both my pocket and my poor little laptop!).
I just wanted to know what you thought about the option of using this (and other similar randomly grown trees) to generate canopy shapes for the hand drawn winter trees, turning them into spring/summer/fall trees.
Regardless, very nice, and very impressive.
Cheers,
~Dogtag
@Dogtag: I thought I was making symbols by creating transparent pngs and placing them in the User folder, then using them just like symbols. I can't get the hang of that create symbol feature in CC3. I've only got it to work once, and then it was by accident. (I can't remember how I did it now).
Varicolour is a whole new ball game on top of that as well.
Steep, Steeeeeeeep learning curve! LOL
I have a way to go yet before I'm at that stage. I need to have everything rendered and lined up ready
By putting them in a symbol catalog, you get multiple advantages
- The symbol gets access to CC3's multiple resolution system, which speeds up redrawing by only rendering the quality required for the current zoom level.
- Symbols can be organized.
- You can apply symbol properties, like sheet, random transformations (random) collections, varicolor, control points, etc
- You can tweak the scale (images should be scaled properly before using them, but having it as a symbol adds extra flexibility without modifying the source image)
- A symbol can be built from more than one image file for additional flexibility.
- and more...
Thanks for that.
There's not much damage right now. The only home made pngs on the map are mostly in that tiny section I've been using to test the trees, which I will delete once the testing is done.
I've spent the entire day creating and rendering trees and bits of trees in Vue, ready for a big 'tree bake' tomorrow, using the aspen I pasted an example of in the last image, and things like this - which I can add fruit or flowers to, and which will also make excellent building blocks for much larger trees.
I haven't even sorted out the alpha mask on them yet, so its still in its original rendered state (reduced to 25 % the size of the original).
(Image removed)
Here is a screen shot of all the rendering I've been doing... giving an indication of all the rendering I have yet to do - all the different colour variations and so on.
Since I can't seem to find a tree without any leaves on it, I will still have to draw them by hand. I will also have to draw any fruit and flowers I add to the basic trees.
LLAP
Nacon4
Thank you
I'm not actually drawing any part of these Vue trees. They are automatically generated by Vue - every branch, twig and leaf randomly generated every time I click the next button
The worst bit is waiting ten minutes for each of these images to render, but that can't be helped... and the ONLY drawing I have done so far is the dead trees.
Its not so difficult. Anyone who has already been messing around with landscapes in Vue for a couple of months could have done it the same way. In fact I've lost count of the number of Vue trees I've seen in some of the larger symbol sets that are available for mappers and architects these days.
As for a tutorial? Like I keep saying - I'm useless at stuff like that. Besides, you would fall about laughing at my very English accent, and then you wouldn't learn a thing! LOL
I've posted a screen shot of the Vue interface showing how simple and intuitive it is - and that I'm not really doing very much (other than being too lazy to spend another 6 months actually drawing all these trees)
So, if I have this right, Vue already has the general programming for building trees built in, yes? How do you change them into files that CC3+ can recognize? I really am a tyro at this. I don't even know how to import the Dudjinni icons for CC3+! But, I can tell this much, you have access to a lot more symbols than I do. How did you get them?
I'm sorry if I sound like a complete idiot, but I've only done two maps (and I'm still in the process of writing up the module that goes with the second) so please forgive me if I'm asking stupid questions.
LLAP
Nacon4
Vue has basic functionality and a small set of free plants, including 5-6 types of tree. You get a unique random member of the chosen species every time you hit the button, but you can't edit it. To do that you have to get the Botanica add-on (which is about £20). Its also a lot easier if you buy a few extra plants, but that's a slippery slope too far for me, since my funds are extremely limited.
I'm not keen on the way Vue advertises what their software can do. I find it misleading, and the purchase of Botanica rather a disappointment. Still... at least I can change the size and colour of the leaves and the length, droop and gnarl of the branches of the 5-6 trees that came free with Vue Pioneer, even if I can't make my own brand new species from scratch with it.
Setting up the scene to take the perfect tree portrait is down to simple experience in how to organise a scene and edit materials to make them do what I want them to do.
I know I said the Vue interface was simple and intuitive, but that's only the main setup shown above. Rendering settings and output controls are at the opposite end of the scale. There is a huge panel of jargon and hundreds of tick box options you have to sift through and work out for yourself more or less what everything does. For example, even though I have had Vue for several months longer than I've been using CC3, it was only yesterday that I worked out how to force Vue to export the alpha mask that went with the image at the same time as rendering the image (the alpha mask is the black and white image that goes with each shot).
Using something like GIMP or PS you combine the rendered image with its alpha mask to give the image genuine png transparency of the kind that will work properly once the png is imported to CC3 and made into a symbol.
I am sorry Ed - Because I use an ancient and very broken version of Photopaint, and know nothing whatsoever about PS (and don't even have time to look at GIMP, which I understand is horrendously user unfreindly) there wouldn't be very much point in me trying to describe that part of the process in detail. I'm one of those shoestring cartographers that only pay for new software when the cranky old stuff I've got is broken beyond repair - ie rendered useless by Windows OS updates. Win 10 just about killed my copy of Photopaint, which only operates for a few minutes at a time before it has an argument with the OS about the allocation of active memory, but I can use it to do really simple stuff like apply an alpha mask to a png, as that only takes a few seconds
If you want to know where all the symbols on the MC map come from - right at the moment the majority are built in CC3/DD3/CD3 symbols that come with the package... a smattering of Bogie's Mapping Objects... and a handful of delightful little sailing vessels that another member (-Jo-) drew for his map of Alycrau, and then offered to let me use just for this map - thanks Jo
LLAP
Ed
As for people who seek to stifle the creative spark in others - I have no time for them
This is a test area of just the one test tree, pasted in the four colours I hope are closest to natural woodland, or parkland. I haven't done any purple foliage trees, or autumnal trees just yet (at least, not any that look right), but they are next.
Comments and critiques welcome - too dark... too light... to intense... not intense enough.... etc
My night of slaving over a hot laptop was not in vain in that case.
The tree in the middle right has foliage but nothing above. Is that intentional, because it looks like a dead tree in the middle of your beautiful forest!
LLAP
Nacon4