Top down symbols for overland maps.

[Deleted User]

We have plenty of top down symbols for city, dungeon and battlemaps, but hardly any for overland maps, especially those of larger regions or world maps, except for 13th age and the Google map-like bit maps. I really would like to see a style which showed a large variety of mountain and hills, and other like symbols for top down maps, rather than the 3D-like symbols we have at present.

This is a call out to any who are good at doing this sort of thing, because I am definitely not.

This also applies to vegetation as well, though some of the symbols in the dungeon and battlemap styles could do, I guess.

Finally, I would love to see a better variety of jungle symbols than palm trees (not really a jungle tree ) and also mangroves - though the swamp trees in the Schley style can double as the latter.

And I would welcome comments on this topic from all and sundry.

Settlements etc I think can be done using simple symbols, such as circles etc, though i really like the 13th Age symbols. And it is easy to devise my own vector symbols for various structures or resources. (I already have).

Wyvern

Don't forget there's also the Fantasy Realms style from 2009, which has the essential top-down mountain and hill drawing tools.

It's important to recognise too that as soon as you move from the pictorial isometric or side-on images to top-down, you're immediately wanting greater precision in exactly what is where, hence I'm not sure trying to create a set of symbols for top-down features will work well enough. That argument is why there are very few hill and mountain symbols in Fantasy Realms, for instance, with the recommendation to make full use of the drawing tools in that style.

Top-down vegetation is tricky too - lots of rough-edged small rings with a couple of texture lines inside is liable to be all you'd see at typical overland scales. This does work, as it's what was used originally on things like the early SPI-style hex-based board-and-counter wargames, and it's fine as representation, but it's not particularly realistic. Plus it can be very easily drawn vector style, if you want to go down that route.

It's hard to know what would work better as identifying jungle symbols than palms (try a quick online search for jungle map symbols, and most of what turns up IS palms!), given that many jungle evergreens have general side-on shapes similar to in-leaf deciduous ones. Maybe adding a few hanging lianas in places, an attempt at stratification (albeit that means multiple trees per symbol), or splashes of colour for flowers and fruits might help, though again for overland-scale maps, most of that detail's liable to be lost. Altering the varicolor colouring might help with the extant deciduous woodland options, possibly. And for top-down versions, basically, again, you're looking at a rough-edged circle with a couple of interior texture lines.

[Deleted User]

Yes, I forgot about Fantasy realms - I like the mountains, but hate the hills. And I get it about the jungle - and the top down vector vegetation isn't too much of a problem. I guess I was also mentioning about different 3d versions of jungle symbols, since most jungles are not palm trees (are any).

mike robel

Here are some of my top down maps that are based on modern military topographic maps. This may not be what you want.

This is an embed external element. It can be deleted using the delete key or the backspace key. To view the full element, press the preview button below.

Yet Another Wargame Map set in ...

mike robelJul 28, 2021

You guessed it in the V Corps area of Germany in the Fulda Gap. This one, while in the same area, is a little different and is centered on Rasdorf which is very near the old Internal German Border. Here is a map of the region, covering an area about 5 x 8 km. the scale is 1:50000 and each square is 1km

https://forum.profantasy.com/uploads/991/QPKQOFZFK22M.jpg

I'm making the game for a game called Assault which was set in the late 80's and I used to play it for both enjoyment and for training my officers. You can read about at https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8284/assault-tactical-combat-europe-1985 if you are tired of making maps for the moment.

Here is one of the maps from the game. They are based on German terrain, but are isomorphic and very generic and I don't like the roads running in the center of the hex, streams on the hex edge, and other features contained within a hex or a group of hexes. counter interval here is 20 meters, but you can say it is anything you want. The map scale is 1 Hex = 250meters and the unit scale is platoon (3-10 vehicles).

https://forum.profantasy.com/uploads/801/DFT8ENDJ4C85.jpg

This is a copy of my game map in progress. I had to blow it up to the Assault Scale, so it is much larger than the top map. The map measures 30 x 37 inches or so. (sorry about mixing measurement systems.) Rasdorf is the city in the middle and Setzelbach is directly below it and very near the Red/Black line which marks the Interzonal or Inner German Border.

https://forum.profantasy.com/uploads/499/9EFQITXFDYGA.jpg

This map is sized to about the same hex size as the Assault map above. The town at top is Rasdorf and the smaller one at the bottom is Setzelbach. My tank and cavalry platoon would occupy an Observation post for three weeks about once every quarter to provide surveillance of the border, the OP is now a museum and sits just about where the light gray road exits the map to the north near the Border.

https://forum.profantasy.com/uploads/995/KG711F3GONTD.jpg

It's getting close to finish. I have to decide if I want to put in more contour lines, fill in the contoursso they are easy to interpret, and detail the areas of forest.

Enjoy

---

View Post

This is an embed external element. It can be deleted using the delete key or the backspace key. To view the full element, press the preview button below.

Depicting Towns

mike robelAug 20, 2020

It's me again. I'm working on yet another topographic map for a different game. (No, covering force is not finished yet, but I am currently on the horns of dilemma about it over counters, and a friend would like this map for one of his next games.)

The subject is towns. Does anyone have a recommendation for how to do these towns like they are portrayed on the map below. Placing individual symbols would of course work* (and has the benefit of being a brute force and ignorance method) But its very tedious. There are probably all sorts of issues. (1) these are tiny (2) there are roads everywhere (3) to look really good, you have to rotate them, and (4) I'm sort of tired of just using the different shades of pink to portray built up areas.

I tried Symbols in Area with the symbols found in Overland.FSC but it doesn't seem to work. I read the Command of the Week thread on it as well as the other thread I started, and all other threads dealing with it, but have failed to get anything to look even close to right. IN some cases, the symbols don't print. It seems some things I just have to learn everytime I use them.

I'd be okay with some generic ones that I could rotate. Most of the towns are about as big shown below, but some of course have very dense city centers and span several grid squares.

* But I do not have anywhere near Quenton's store of patience for such detailed work.

---

View Post

This is an embed external element. It can be deleted using the delete key or the backspace key. To view the full element, press the preview button below.

Mind the Gap (fan expansion for MBT: Second Edition)

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/260148/mind-gap-fan-expansion-mbt-second-edition

NOTE: This game is no longer for sale. ***All briefings and maps can be downloaded from the files section of this page for free. The maps should be printed on 12 x 18 inch paper to produce an 11 x 17 inch map.*** "Mind the Gap" depicts a never fought 1979 engagement in the Fulda Gap using Jim Day's and GMT’s MBT Game pitting a reinforced US Armored Cavalry Troop from the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment “The Black Horse” against a reinforced Motorized Rifle Battalion equipped with BMP-2 and T-64BV Tanks. The scenario reflects my experience as a Platoon Leader in the gap as a tank and armored cavalry platoon leader and troop XO in the 1st Squadron, 11th ACR stationed in Fulda from January 1977 – December 1979. The game is not balanced although players may balance it as they deem fit. The actual fight was not; we had a healthy respect for the quantity, if not the quality, of the enemy. To play the game, you must have a copy of the initial GMT MBT Game. The expansion includes a new map of four 11 x 17 inch map sheets scaled at 100 meters per hex (the same scale as the MBT game). The map is based on a period map of the battle area and utilizes contours to depict elevation. The Scenario Briefing, a B Troop and Soviet Battle Books with deployment instructions, and alternate order of battle listings, a planning map and terrain key are downloadable from the files section. Expansion sets are not required (BAOR, FRG, and the forthcoming Canadian supplement) provide additional vehicle counters as well as leaders. A list of substitute counters is provided to enable the player to field the complete order of battle for both sides or the players can use some of the expansion set vehicles or combine sets to complete the order of battle. Mind the Gap can be played with two players but may be more interesting if played with up to 6 players on the US side (CO and the five platoon leaders), and 6 on the USSR side (Battalion Commander and 4 company commanders), and a referee. The gamer can also simulate a 1978 engagement by downloading a Vehicle Card for the M60A1 tank from https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/146576/official-bonus-data-card-um-13b-m60a1-aos and by deleting the M901 Improved TOW vehicles from the US Order of Battle Mind the Gap© 2018 StrongPoint Simulations and Modeling, LLC. • MBT™ is arbitrable to James M. Day. The MBT Game ©2016 GMT Games. Counter images are used with permission of James M. Day.

This is an embed external element. It can be deleted using the delete key or the backspace key. To view the full element, press the preview button below.

Plug the Gap (Fan Expansion for MBT Second Edition)

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/275629/plug-gap-fan-expansion-mbt-second-edition

NOTE: This game is no longer for sale ***All briefings and maps can be downloaded from the files section of this page for free. The maps should be printed on 12 x 18 inch paper to produce an 11 x 17 inch map.*** Mind the Gap depicts a never fought 1979/80 engagement in the Fulda Gap using Jim Day's and GMT’s MBT Game pitting an M60A3 Tank Company from the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment “The Black Horse” against a reinforced Motorized Rifle Battalion equipped with BMP-2 and T-64BV Tanks acting as a Regimental Advance Guard which has penetrated the Regiment's screen line while the rest of the Corps moves into position. The scenario reflects my experience as a Platoon Leader in the gap as a tank and armored cavalry platoon leader and troop XO in the 1st Squadron, 11th ACR stationed in Fulda from January 1977 – December 1979. The game is not balanced although players may balance it as they deem fit. The actual fight was not; we had a healthy respect for the quantity, if not the quality, of the enemy. The objective for the Soviet Player is to move 51%+ off the map's West Edge while the US player attempts to destroy the enemy advance guard and restore the screen line. To play the game, you must have a copy of the initial GMT MBT Game. The expansion includes 9 11 x 17 maps scaled at 100 meters per hex (the same scale as the MBT game), a Scenario Briefing, a B Troop Battle Book and a Soviet Battle book with deployment instructions and order of battle listing, and a small errata sheet. The map is based on a period map of the battle area and utilizes contours to depict elevation. The map will be mailed to customers and the files may be downloaded from this site. Expansion sets are not required (BAOR, FRG, and the forthcoming Canadian supplement) provide additional vehicle counters as well as leaders. A list of substitute counters is provided to enable the player to field the complete order of battle for both sides or the players can use some of the expansion set vehicles or combine sets to complete the order of battle. Mind the Gap can be played with two players but may be more interesting if played with up to 6 players on the US side (CO and the five platoon leaders), and 6 on the USSR side (Battalion Commander and 4 company commanders), and a referee. —description from the designer

This is an embed external element. It can be deleted using the delete key or the backspace key. To view the full element, press the preview button below.

Ambush at Rannungen: A 1985 MBT Scenario

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/291640/ambush-rannungen-1985-mbt-scenario

NOTE: This game is no longer for sale. ***All briefings and maps can be downloaded from the files section of this page for free. The maps should be printed on 12 x 18 inch paper to produce an 11 x 17 inch map.*** Ambush at Rannugen depicts a never fought 1985 engagement in the Fulda Gap using Jim Day's and GMT’s MBT Game pitting a reinforced US tank company team of the 1st Infantry Division (Forward) against a reinforced Warsaw Pact Motorized Rifle Battalion in Germany. The scenario reflects my experience as a Company Commander in 1984-1985 The game explores a way to use terrain in a different manner to defeat the enemy. In a conventional defense, the US establishes a killing zone by positioning on good terrain with frontal and flank shots to destroy the enemy once he enters the zone. Here, the tactic is to position the US force in such a manner that he is rewarded with shots on the enemy's rear and flanks while at the same time perhaps avoiding some of the enemy's artillery bombardment. The dicey part, however, is withdrawing and getting to a new position after finishing the engagement. Like other scenarios I have released, it is not balanced although players may balance it as they deem fit. To play the game, you must have a copy of the initial GMT MBT Game. The expansion includes 4 11 x 17 maps scaled at 100 meters per hex (the same scale as the MBT game), a Scenario Briefing, a US Battle Book and a Soviet Battle book with deployment instructions and order of battle listing, and a terrain key. The map is based on a period map of the battle area and utilizes contours to depict elevation. Expansion sets are not required (BAOR, FRG, and the forthcoming Canadian supplement) provide additional vehicle counters as well as leaders. A list of substitute counters is provided to enable the player to field the complete order of battle for both sides or the players can use some of the expansion set vehicles or combine sets to complete the order of battle. Rannugen can be played with two players but may be more interesting if played with up to 4 players on the US side (CO and the five platoon leaders), and 5 on the USSR side (Battalion Commander and 4 company commanders), and a referee. —description from the designer

This is an embed external element. It can be deleted using the delete key or the backspace key. To view the full element, press the preview button below.

Alien Invasion: Defense of Corona

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/202698/alien-invasion-defense-corona

NOTE: THIS GAME IS NO LONGER FOR SALE. For further information, you can contact me by PM. DOC models the initial alien of Earth set in Southern California in the mid-20th century. The mission of the alien player is, of course, to seize control of Earth. The defenders – a mixture of US Marines and US Army National Guard and other supporting units – is to defeat them and preserve Earth for Earthlings. The defenders organizations are based on period tables of organization and equipment and include the 1st Marine Regiment, Combat Command “A” of the 40th Armored Division, California Army National Guard, and the 153rd Regimental Combat Team, Arkansas Army National Guard as well as the unorganized militia of the United States. The Aliens consist of up to 9 powerful Alien Fighting Machines equipped with directed energy weapons and defensive shields. Can the humans discover the alien weaknesses and mass enough forces to prevent the enemy’s domination of Earth? There are seven scenarios, covering the independent assault of the enemy landing craft, a campaign covering the first critical 72 hours, an attack of a full strength Alien unit, and defense against a Human Counterattack. The game includes 2 counter sheets, 4 11 x 17 maps depicting the terrain around Corona, CA in the mid-1950s, 6 player aid cards, a rules book, and Human and Alien Operations Orders (as shown below).

CA 141 Japanese Temples, CA 184 Tactical Maps, CA 74, CA 09 Modern City has several.

[Deleted User]

The top down request is for large overland maps, such as 13th age and Fantasy Realms. I really want a larger selection of top down mountains and hills than the very small selection available in 13th Age. Fantasy Realms doesn't have individual mountain symbols, and anyway, I loathe the hill symbols.

There are plenty of top down for cities, and smaller overland maps, especially in the Dundjinni and CSUAC collections.

Trees are not a problem - nor are settlements. I was just hoping for more support for bitmap topdown mountain, hill and natural features symbols, rather than the "You don't need them" or "there are plenty in city and other small scale maps" answers. I guess I will have to comb the internet for pictures, and try to turn them into symbols, though I obviously will not be able to use them for Atlas maps. I confess I am somewhat disheartened by the lack of interest (indeed almost positive lack of interest) in this from the responses to date.

I guess I am sick of 3D symbols for large overland maps.

jslayton

Are you interested in something like contour-line linework, ridge/valley linework, a shaded style analogous to the spectrum style, adjustable lighting or something else? To me, it has always seemed that the biggest limitation for overhead-type maps is the lack of composability in the artwork (that is, each symbol is an individual element and there's no solid way to merge them together at drawing time). I would really love something like little heightfield symbols that compose with a max(a,b) operation and a shader to do things like contour lines. Alas, such things are rather infeasible in CC3+.

If you can live with a straight hypsometric shading for symbols with roof-shaded normal maps, then you can get that effect with FT3 or Wilbur as described in https://forum.profantasy.com/discussion/11830/practical-use-of-the-new-fractal-terrains-profantasy-normal-map-in-campaign-cartographer (use the "Discworld" setting and go from there). I keep meaning to add an "endless islands" feature to Wilbur that will run a little script on a world to get a mountain with the edges down below sea level so that I can have more mountain symbols than anyone, but I never quite get a free weekend to get it accomplished.

[Deleted User]

@jslayton Anything along the lines of the first paragraph. Alas, I am not a designer.

Here are two ways I have dealt with this for my own worlds.

First, using solid fills only, with a crude mountain fill pattern. So I can show both mountains and vegetation overlapping each other.

Above is whole world map, climate biomes; then detail of the Menosiran sea area, altitude, then biomes, with hills as dotted region, and mountains as another vector fill, both 30% transparent. Comments on how to improve this are welcome.

The next is an amalgam of styles with contours shown, but vegetation and structures using symbols for various styles.

Finally, a version of Shaded relief with two different ways of depicting trees. Obviously, I would use different symbols - and suggestions welcome.

The situation I want is a top down depiction of mountains, hills, and yet still be able to show different vegetation and biomes overlying these mountain fills, symbols or contours - either done as lines or shaded relief.

Shessar

Just popping my head in to say that I agree with you Quenten!

The disparity between flat terrain/rivers and front view mountains and hills often looks out of sync to me; like I'm seeing the map from 2 different perspectives (because I am). My solution has been using terrain fills to denote biomes and lighted bevels to denote mountains and hills.

These are the best examples I have using ProFantasy fills. Having top down symbols instead would be a great addition. I'm wondering how they could be done.

Loopysue

The thing about top down mountains is that they are pretty inflexible as symbols. Hill shading means they can't be rotated or mirrored, and that means you need maybe a hundred symbols instead of just the usual 20 or so.

You might think that using a map file would be the solution, but at the current time if you have a faded edge all the way around a symbol as would be desirable for a top view mountain or hill to blend it into the background properly, the map file doesn't work properly. Faded edges upset them quite badly to the point where you end up with strange white strips of missing rows of pixels in the resulting symbol. I haven't worked out how to get around that problem myself, which is why I haven't yet done a top view overland style.

JulianDracos

In regards to the symbol issue, wouldn't it be possible to stick to mostly the fill styles that are generally used for the top down maps. However, offer a few more options. Also, then add in some symbols. Maybe 30 or so symbols combined with the fill would be enough.

[Deleted User]

Mmmmm. Why can't something like 13th Age be used. The other thing is that the mountains still need to have terrain showed - or at least vegetation.

I have revamped the Sun Devil Isle to give a bit of elevation look. Comments on how it seems to works are appreciated.

JulianDracos

I can certainly tell there is elevation for the mountains here. It looks a bit rough, but without specific tools and probably doing it quickly it looks nice

JimP

The Arduin bloody Arduin map looks like a person or being.

Wyvern

I have revamped the Sun Devil Isle to give a bit of elevation look. Comments on how it seems to works are appreciated.

The vegetation seems to distract heavily from the topographic colouring and contours. The contours are essentially invisible at the usual Forum image scale anyway on the new version, of course, but to my eye, the vegetation needs simplifying and clarifying substantially just to better highlight the terrain. This does though depend on exactly what you need the map to show, as regards which is more important to you. At this kind of scale, it's unusual to try to force both topography and vegetation onto the same map with the level of detail in both that you've currently got here. One or the other will probably need to take priority, as I'm not sure you'll get a workable solution showing both like this.

Fantasy Realms doesn't have individual mountain symbols, and anyway, I loathe the hill symbols.

OK, so maybe it would help if you could clarify exactly what it is about the hills you dislike so much in FR. Is it the colouring, the lines (thickness, colour), or the shapes? Given that all of these can be adjusted, I'm thinking it must be something else, but I've no idea what that might be. If you can pinpoint what it is you don't like, maybe that would help you determine better what you DO want from the hills in this style. If you need individual mountains in the FR style, it would be easy enough to draw your own new symbols (vector style, after all), as the style already means you need to draw most of the terrain anyway.

The 13th Age style is a fairly abstract one, with the hill and mountain symbols relying on quite simple shapes with linear and radiating forms, plus suggestions of shading to improve the topographic look away from the general fills the style uses. From your comments about this style, I'm starting to get the sense that what you may be looking for is shaded terrain done as symbols, rather than having to draw it yourself, but Sue's already highlighted the main problems with that as an approach, and I'm not sure there's a way round that.

[Deleted User]

Mmmm. I hear you about the vegetation and contours, which is why I introduced the relief colouring, which gets around it, in my opinion (or taste). I am happy to draw my own hills etc, I just dislike the hills in FR. I will have to rethink and research top down hill images on the net.

And I am looking more into shaded relief style as well.

I still would like more symbols, as apart from fills, as in 13th age. Or better ways to customize mountain ranges rather thn the fills in the various satellite annuals.

Back to the net, I guess.