WIP Commission, Ancient Tombs

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Comments

  • Ok, so after applying the mask, what a pain that was. I started in the top left corner of the border, followed the border to level with the bottom section of the left wall and then drew the mask. Because I used symbols for the walls rather than the drawing tool, I couldn't trace them (apart from the hand drawn circular bits and the 'shaft, and so had to do it point by point. I tried 3 bloody times and every time I got around to right hand side and near finished CC3 crashed. The first 2 times was it was as I was tracing the shaft, the third time, I decided I would use a colour key for the shaft and it crashed on the right hand curved wall. After some internal swearing, I just put the mask over everything except the out side walls and used a Colour Key effect to cut-out the structure. Damn frustrating.

    Anyhow, I thought the shaft didn't look too bad, I just need to change the colour of the fill. After around 10-15 minutes of changing properties and what have you (sorry @Loopysue, while I really dig your shaft, I felt it wasn't quite right, though I have downloaded the FCW and will use that technique elsewhere) this where I'm at.

    Now the next problem is the compass rose. The map is oriented West-East, rather than North-South. So I re-watched Ralf's livestream where he shows how to edit the symbol and followed his instruction to the letter. In the Symbol Manager, the symbol looks correct but it's not changing in the catalogue. I've no idea why? Below is a screen shot so you can see what I mean.

    Arrrghhhhh! I may have to download the software onto my work PC and use it on that machine to avoid these annoying issues. Which will obviously mean I'll have to delete it from my Mac. I really detest the way technology keeps forcing you to update stuff. While I love the updated machine, generally speaking, it's really (insert foul words of choice here) me off to the point I almost wish I hadn't got the damn thing.

    Please make CC4 64-bit and cross platform!!!!!!

    RaikoRalf
  • LoopysueLoopysue 🖼️ 35 images Cartographer ProFantasy
    edited November 2020

    That's fine, Jim - just because I offer a potential solution doesn't mean it's the right one for you. There are always many different ways of creating something in a map, and I prefer what you've done anyway :)

    As for the compass... I only know what I learned from the same video you watched, so I can't help you with that one. Sorry!

    jmabbott
  • MonsenMonsen 🖼️ 46 images Cartographer Administrator
    edited November 2020

    The symbol won't update in the symbol catalog when you edit the symbol in the map. Editing a symbol in the map won't affect the global symbol catalog.

    You can click the Symbols in Map button to have the symbol catalog show the symbols in the current map.

    (Also keep in mind the symbol catalog window does not react to changes dynamically, it only updates when you manually force it to, such as by re-loading the symbol catalog or toggling symbols in map.)

    jmabbott
  • @Monsen I'll have to re-watch the viseo then and pay closer attention, I must have missed a step. Ralf did have issues initially as well.

  • I'm really enjoying this thread Jim, I love your tomb map so far.


    jmabbott said:

    Ok, so after applying the mask, what a pain that was. I started in the top left corner of the border, followed the border to level with the bottom section of the left wall and then drew the mask. Because I used symbols for the walls rather than the drawing tool, I couldn't trace them (apart from the hand drawn circular bits and the 'shaft, and so had to do it point by point. I tried 3 bloody times and every time I got around to right hand side and near finished CC3 crashed. The first 2 times was it was as I was tracing the shaft, the third time, I decided I would use a colour key for the shaft and it crashed on the right hand curved wall. After some internal swearing, I just put the mask over everything except the out side walls and used a Colour Key effect to cut-out the structure. Damn frustrating.


    When using these kinds of masks in future I'm always going to draw a big polygon over the entire area to be masked (often the entire map) and then use colour key to "mask the mask" in the places where I want things to show through. Much quicker, and you can just hide the whole mask sheet if you are working with effects off (otherwise the colour key areas will all be solid pink).

    jmabbott said:

    Now the next problem is the compass rose. The map is oriented West-East, rather than North-South. So I re-watched Ralf's livestream where he shows how to edit the symbol and followed his instruction to the letter. In the Symbol Manager, the symbol looks correct but it's not changing in the catalogue. I've no idea why? Below is a screen shot so you can see what I mean.


    Does it work when you place it on the map? 

    jmabbott said:

    Arrrghhhhh! I may have to download the software onto my work PC and use it on that machine to avoid these annoying issues. Which will obviously mean I'll have to delete it from my Mac. 

    You won't need to delete CC3 from your Mac if you install it on another machine (or several machines). You're allowed multiple installs of Profantasy Software, so long as they're all installed for you. I normally map on my laptop, but I've also got CC3 installed on my desktop, and I've seen a few people asking about multiple installations over the years, so I'm confident that I'm not saying the wrong thing.
  • LoopysueLoopysue 🖼️ 35 images Cartographer ProFantasy
    edited November 2020

    On that last point, Raiko, I think there might be an issue if Jim is using the app for commercial purposes. The license is quite specific about it in the first paragraph under "DESCRIPTION OF RIGHTS AND LIMITATIONS".

    However, it is not Profantasy's intention to be obstructive to the enjoyment of their software, so it is probably worth making polite enquiries via Tech Support to find out exactly how this rule applies to your particular circumstances and the issues you are having, @jmabbott

    Raikojmabbott
  • DaltonSpenceDaltonSpence Surveyor
    edited November 2020
    Loopysue said:

    One sheet, about 30 minutes.

    I drew a circle, traced it with one of the drawing tools, fractalised it... (you can't fractalise a circle)... then changed it's properties to Solid 20 Bitmap fill and drew a step on top of it touching the edge. I grouped them together, then used circular array to make 10 in a ring (rotation centre in the middle of the irregular circle), and picked them one by one to make each successive rotated step a bit smaller than the previous one - starting at the visual second step down in the series.

    I think your example looks great but personally I'd either chose a different fill for the step or place it below the shading circle to differentiate it from the floor. Your method sounds like a spiral staircase macro or script I might write. Main inputs would be step width/depth and pit radius (which must be > step width). The trick would be fractalizing the outer wall and step edges and determining the scaling and shading factors for each step. Hmmm, I'll have to think on this. :| 
    Loopysuejmabbott
  • LoopysueLoopysue 🖼️ 35 images Cartographer ProFantasy

    Wow!

    I didn't mean to make even more work for you, but if you really want to do this other variables would have to be the two fills to be used. I think Solid 10 Bitmap might be better than Solid 20 Bitmap in cases where the background is darker.

    It will be interesting to see what you come up with :)

  • edited November 2020
    Oops, that'll teach me for being confident that I wasn't wrong. :blush:
    I suspect that Jim already already knew that I was mistaken though.
    Loopysuejmabbott
  • @Raiko I strongly suspect the clause regarding commercial use is aimed more at business’ with multiple users only purchasing one instance of the software and I get that. If I asked PF for permission as a sole user to have it on two machines and use it for commercial purposes they may allow it but I wouldn’t ask.

    Raiko
  • edited November 2020

    Well, I'm finally finished Level 1, only levels 2, 3 & 4, the city map and regional map to go.

    I'm glad I do this primarily for fun and enjoyment (not to mention having some really goods map I can use?) and not for the money.

    Thank you all for your encouragement, support and advice. This map is as much yours as it is mine because it would not look anywhere near as good without your input.

    For those that are interested, the hieroglyphs are actually a pro-bono message, not just decoration.


    LoopysueQuentenRaikoMonsenWyvernCalibre
  • Here is a WIP of Level 2. Due to some of the odd shapes and the fact that I'm finding it difficult to align the walls and such so that they're centred on the grid line. I'm going to scrap this and use the room and corridor tools to speed up the process.


    Raiko
  • These are brilliant maps any chance of putting them somewhere in the Atlas? i can help find a place

    jmabbott
  • @Quenten Thanks mate, I’d love to say yes but unfortunately these are commission pieces, I don’t own the copyright, that’s owned by the publisher. I do these maps on a work for hire basis, I can use them in my portfolio with an appropriate copyright notice but that’s about it.

    Once I’m done with the commissions, I’ll finish my atlas map and then come up with an atlas map in this style?

    Raiko
  • Well, here is Level 2 MKII.

    Note to self: When trying new ways of doing things, do small test pieces first to make sure it's going to work the way you expect.

    I did the rooms with the room tool, where the long corridors are on each side, I used the polygon room tool, so on the left rooms, 19, 22 & 23 were done as one big room with the inner wall being the outer corridor wall. I then used the wall tool (changed to a polygon) to do the internal wall. Which worked ok, apart from one small thing: to get the doors to align, I have to disable smart symbols which means they don't cut, when I use the cutting symbol it deletes the whole wall! These symbols are from the default DD3 catalogue.

    I thought I was making good progress until I tried to put the doors in...?

    Anyhow, that has sufficiently annoyed me enough to leave it for the evening.


    QuentenLoopysueRaiko
  • edited November 2020
    It's looking good Jim. Try using a "color key" effect on the wall sheet to cut non-destructive holes for the doors. That's what I used for all the doors and windows in my Castle Ravenloft map so far. Just insert a magenta rectangle where door will go, although for other styles you can make the door & window cut any shape you desire with "color key".

    The keys will also make it easy to tidy up the wall overlaps of the diagonal corridor without needing to alter the walls themselves.

    I've noticed from my various purchased adventures that adventure writers do love their diagonal sections - with no regard for the hardships that they cause the cartographers. :lol:
    jmabbott
  • Level 1: I think the key list would look better left justified than centered. Also, 12 is a "Death Trap"? So those stairs go nowhere good?
    Level 2: The lower corners on room 28 should be trimmed so they don't protrude into the diagonal corridors. Also where does this level connect to Level 1?
  • @Raiko Thanks for the tip re the colour key, so obvious a way to cut the doors in and address the protruding corners, don't know why I didn't think of it myself, it's how I do the mask.

    @DaltonSpence:

    Level 1. The key may well look better being left justified, I'll have a look at that if I've any spare time before they're due. I've got 3 more dungeon maps (incl Level2), a City map, and a Regional map to finish by months end. I've already modified the country map which is the parent to the regional map, I've just got to export that section.

    Yes, that stair is a trap plain and simple but you reminded me to put a door at the bottom to complete it!

    Level 2. See my comments above re the pesky corners. Though I kind of like them, they serve no purpose. If it was a 10ft wide corridor and they protruded into it far enough to provide a choke point or cover then you could argue for their inclusion but that's not the case here.

    Access is gained via the shaft, area 17 on both maps. I just haven't copied it across from map 1 yet. Trying to get the basic layout sorted first then I'll add both shafts (treating the original as a kind of symbol), area 31 will lead down to Level 3 and finish off the masking.

  • edited November 2020

    Well, colour me stupid but I've just realised something that is probably obvious to anyone with a functioning brain. Due to the issues with doors above, I looked at symbols with control points (actually read that part of the Tome) and how they work and then had a light bulb moment. They only align to LINES, not polygons or other symbols. This then led to an understanding (and I may be incorrect here, if I am, feel free to correct me) that the room and corridor tools are essentially just tools to make the creation of multiple entity drawing tools easy and give them advanced features; so a polygon for the floor and a LINE for the walls with user setting the fill styles and other parameters. Due to this Eureka moment I was able to fix my walls and have the doors cut-in as they should. Hurrah.

    @Raiko I tried the colour key on the pointy bits of the wall and it worked...to a point. Once I applied the colour key, it successfully removed the wall but unfortunately left a triangular shape hole in the floor also, so the background shows through. I think I can fix it by editing the nodes on the floor, I'll try that tomorrow.

    Dressing a dungeon takes longer than drawing the bloody thing I reckon! Anyhow here is an update, internal wall are now drawn as lines with the same settings as the other walls where they require door?


    MonsenDaltonSpenceLoopysueRaikoQuenten
  • DaltonSpenceDaltonSpence Surveyor
    edited November 2020
    I think you may have to actually trim (break) the lower corners of room 28's wall path entity. While using a color key may work for door gaps I don't think it is going to "cut it" in this case.
  • edited November 2020
    I think you're mistaken Dalton. As far as I'm aware, and from my own efforts, a diagonal colour key rectacle that matches the dimensions of the visible corridor will remove the intruding corners from the corridor without affecting the interior of room 28. 
  • Could you not just move the three rooms centred on 28 north by one square? That's likely what any actual builders would have done. (Aside from making sure none of the walls were actually true, naturally...)

    Yes, drawing the floorplan is the easy bit. Fitting it out and tweaking the Effects are what really takes the time. Again, just like real building.

  • Raiko said:
    I think you're mistaken Dalton. As far as I'm aware, and from my own efforts, a diagonal colour key rectacle that matches the dimensions of the visible corridor will remove the intruding corners from the corridor without affecting the interior of room 28. 
    Sorry, I was visualizing something else. I haven't used color key much myself so that method of keeping corridors clear hadn't occurred to me. 
    Raiko
  • Love the style also, but for the life of me, I can not remember which annual style this is.  I am I missing something, I have all the annuals. Can someone tell me which Issue # this is?


    thank you

  • edited November 2020

    @Samantha Hi, It's the Ancient Tombs style, CA150.

    @Raiko @DaltonSpence The triangular colour key on the wall layer cut the wall as intended but left a small triangular gap in the floor that shows the background, rather than the floor. Why that should be the case I have no idea, the corridors were drawn after the rooms. It could just be some weird display thing. I'll turn the effect back on this evening while I'm dressing it, perhaps it's just a matter of bringing the floor entities of those two corridors to the front...

    @Wyvern If I can't get the colour key affect to work as above, I'll delete and re-do the corridors moving the room entries 1 square left and right as appropriate. That will be less work and time is of the essence. My hourly rate on these maps was a cappucino, now it's dwindled to a coke!

    Just had a better, quicker, idea to fix that wall problem - delete Room 28 and re-draw it following the walls of the corridor, then I only have to mess about with 2 things, the room and the door!

  • @jmabbott, you saying that has reminded me that color key does misbehave sometimes for me - nearly always when first added - and then it only seems to correct itself when I turn effects off, force a redraw and then turn them on again.

    So if you've had a similar problem, then you might find that the missing corridor triangles have fixed themselves when you load your map.

    @DaltonSpence, no worries, I'm still getting used to it myself - I didn't even know that it existed until I read Sue's Ode on the Rock blog post. I've wished for ages that you could use masks in CC3 (and especially DD3) like PS & GIMP, and now I'm embarrassed that I don't know when color key was added.
  • Can I just say, as someone who is a bit, I don't know, anal about some things, I find the author's numbering on this level atrocious. It's all over the place.

    To me it would be much better to re-number 21 as 19, 23 as 20 and then continue clockwise from there, or the cells (which will be 27A, 27B etc) starting from the lower left as 20# and continue anti-clockwise from there.

  • edited November 2020

    Fixed the corners by redrawing the whole section. I think it looks a lot nicer now.

    Nearly finished with the dressing then it's time to add the shafts (17 & 31), mask those areas (or unmask in the case of area 31).

    First world problem: Too many damn symbols to try and remember where they all are! I was sure there was like a sleeping mat or stretcher symbol somewhere but I can't for the life of me remember which catalogue it's in. Are there any Anvil symbols in the Profantasy collection?


    LoopysueRaiko
  • Yes in Dunjinni and CSUAC collections, for both. Also Bogies

    jmabbott
  • edited November 2020

    Thanks @Quenten. I don't have them installed as catalogues - I'm not sure how to go about installing them on my Mac due to it running CC3+ via Crossover, it's not a straightforward install and I don't want to have re-install everything if I screw up. I do have Bogies as PNGs. I couldn't see those anywhere, I'll need to have a better look I think!

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