I like the mountains. They have a bark-like quality to them.
I agree with the previous comment about the hills being too pointy. They look too much like mountains. The color also seems a little too dark compared to the moutains.
I'm having the usual problems I get with connectivity under what I assume would be high pressure weather system, only I can't even open the weather page today, so I will come back later when it improves to respond properly.
@Fersus I think it will be published quite a bit sooner than that. At the moment the target date is April.
@JulianDracos@Quenten It is quite interesting that two of you have commented on the pointy hills, where over in the FB Group no one has mentioned it yet. It seems to be a matter of personal taste.
@Loopysue I meant the corresponding battlemap-styles would be a great addition to the overland style and october was wishful thinking for the release date of that ;)
Looking forward to the overland style anyhow. It looks great so far!
Well, isn't it all a matter of taste? The issue with the hills is they have the shape of mountains when they are that pointy. Given they have a different look and are smaller, then it seems reasonable that someone just looking at that style would think hills. I am just used to looking at so many different styles that I compare them to other styles and think mountains.
@Battlemap Style: Oh there a no plans for corresponding Styles yet? That's odd. I thought that would be a straight forward decision to make one issue with overland and one with a corresponding Dungeon/Battlemap style and maybe one with a city style. Maybe next year then?
Sometimes there are second parts for the same style, like there was for the Spectrum Overland style I did last year, but it is less common for there to be an overland/dungeon style pair.
There's a scale between those two things anyway - city scale. Going straight from Overland to Dungeon scale while completely missing out City scale doesn't make sense. And since doing 3 issues of 12 in exactly the same overall style would mean dedicating 1/4 of the entire annual to just one basic style (which not everyone will be interested in) this is very unlikely to happen.
However, if enough people show an interest in a grimdark dungeon style and can show me what this actually means... There was never really an actual style for Grimdark as far as I am aware, but only a sense of atmosphere... that could be something that might appear at some point in time.
...
I had an idea for a compass I thought you all might like
I completely understand the argument that dedicating 1/4 of a years annual to the same style is somewhat of a risk to take. On the other hand: if there is an interest in a particular style, it's also not really satisfying to only get 1/3 of the assets one would need to make maps of every scale of the style in question.
Maybe the "if there's enough interest" part could be done in advance? You could ask the community at the end of the year if there is a style that's of a particular interest and if this interest is strong enough to justify assets for all 3 scales or just one. That way the risk Profantasy has to take is minimal and we have the chance to get a whole package, if enough people want to do maps in a given style...
@Fersus The whole point of an annual is to have a wide variety of styles and tools available in each one - something new and different each month. What you are talking about is more akin to a Symbol Set, which might have all three scales in a similar style, or a very much larger collection of symbols and fills for just one. However, a Symbol Set is not something an artist just decides to make. It is something that PF may from time to time decide to invite an artist to create, because it takes a whole lot more time and money and the investment is a much greater risk. For this reason they are normally done by artists who have already proven themselves to be immensely popular, like Mike Schley. Meanwhile, whichever artist gets the job of doing a Symbol Set probably won't have much time left to do anything else - such as another 3-4 issues of this year's Cartographer's Annual - as I am already booked to do.
@Quenten I am glad you like Spectrum so much. Unfortunately there is not enough left over to make it worth another annual issue for a part 3.
...
Here's another compass alternative, though I'm being told they aren't good enough (not gory enough) over on the FB Group page.
What about a free issue that sometimes gets added with the annual. I can think of quite a number of things I would like as symbols and a few fills, if you are interested, or can have your arm twisted, or being forced to migrate to Australia.
For someone who wants a complete style, I think that having one of each map type is important. On the other hand, it does not seem to be the case with other annuals. So perhaps it is best to stick with the old tried and true and offer up a different map style instead of another grimdark.
Very few styles have matching overland/city/dungeon styles. The only ones that comes to mine is Jon Roberts (divided over several annuals with all of overland, city and dungeon) and Mike Schley, with the main set in CC3+ itself, and SS4/SS5 dedicated to dungeon and city. But it isn't the common approach. I guess partly because artists have their preferred environment, dungeon scale artist doesn't necessarily make city or overland map, and a lot of the styles from CC3+ is the artist adapting their existing style for CC3+.
That said, since a city, dungeon and overland style isn't linked together, there is nothing wrong for Sue to make an overland style for 2021, and a dungeon style for another year, like 2022. Both issues of spectrum had to go in the same year because just half of it would be a bit weird for the purchaser of only one of the annuals, but a city style is still fully usable even if you don't own the annual with the overland style. If there are any repeating files (like maybe some of the fills), they can easily go in both.
As for Sue's comment that it has to be a city style in between, I disagree. These are separate map types, and there are no reason all three have to be made. Nice, yes, but not required. Just look at the Mike Schley style. Overland was released with CC3+, SS4 Dungeons of Schley was released almost at the same time, while SS5 Cities of Schley was only released many years later.
You are of course right when you say, that there is nothing wrong with Sue making an overland style now, and a a dungeon style at a later date. Even if there isn't a follow up add on for dungeons, that's totally fine from Sues point of few.
I just had some assumptions on how the annuals come about and the main one was, that some people at Profantasy would decide what should be the styles for the upcoming annuals and after this decisions have been made they go and find People to commision said styles.
With this assumption it made sense to me, that if a certain style got the green light, that there would be plans for corresponding assets for different scales as well. Especially for something like grimdark: that one in particular strikes me as being especially commissioned with RPG campaigns in mind and so i was convinced that these would be on the timetable somewhere.
I hope my posts did not come across as critique on Sue, that was not my intention. I was just having wrong assumptions about how Profantasy is going about this kind of things and that's what confused me.
Usually, the annuals come away the other way around. ProFantasy spots an artist already doing an interesting style (maybe as a result of a tip from the community), and then works with that artist to bring their style into CC3+ (as an annual or symbol set, assuming the artist is willing obviously). This basically means that the map types will reflect what the artist is already doing.
@Loopysue - The compass indicators seem too perfect currently. The human skull should maybe have at least some damaged, worn or missing teeth, and likely be a bit more battered overall - Grimdark, not Clean & Neat, after all! Similarly the other skull (dragon?) could be a bit more battered as well, perhaps.
If the FaceBook group wants something a bit "nastier", you might go for an entire impaled skeleton (or being mischievous, you might imagine it to be some of the more vocal respondents there ?), or possibly a severed head hanging from a gibbet, as that seems both grimmer and darker in general...
@Monsen Thanks Remy :) Your most recent comment is clearer than all of mine put together. It's not an exact science and pretty difficult to describe with great clarity. The arrangement varies depending on the artist. Because I am also employed part time by Profantasy as a Cartographer and Community Assistant (The latter part of that chiefly on FB where experts are a little thinner on the ground than here on the forum) it is sometimes the case that mappers think I have some kind of control over events. That is just plain wrong, though. I am an artist, and that is all I am. I can make suggestions, point to other promising artists, and offer the things I'm working on right now - just like anyone else can, but while PF are extremely good at listening and fortunately for me seem to like quite a lot of the things I do myself, I never make any of the actual decisions about what comes next or what the annual content should be.
@Wyvern Yes, having gathered the information I've been given both here and over on the FB Group I can see that I have been a bit confused about what Grimdark really is. There are some incredibly fuzzy edges to the whole description, and parts where it almost seems to cross over with what, at other times, has been described to me as Steampunk, or which seems to make Grimdark seem to be a horror version of Steampunk. That's ok. I can do that. I just hope everyone is ready for the darker shades of Mouse!
Grimdark is just a marketing term. It is certainly not an artistic style or genre. At most, it refers to a type of fantasy stories that involve amoral or immoral protagonists. The Witcher could be consider this style. Zweihänder Grim & Perilous RPG is a clone of an old Warhamer RPG. It is often marked with grimdark in its marketing. Again, it is all marketing. So, I take this an opportunity for you shape a look for things that people call grimdark. There is nothing for you to really rely on.
Now, if you are looking at other projects, then perhaps you could do a steampunk map set? That is slighly more defined. Or you could do cyberpunk. Cyberpunk Red is selling very well right now.
Funnily enough I was discussing Steampunk with someone else on this thread just a few days ago - not here, but in private.
And what is Cyberpunk Red? From a mapping point of view, I mean. I did a brief image search on those words and all I came up with was a whole load of video game graphics, not maps.
EDIT: I added the word "map" to the search phrase and came up with a whole load of dungeon and city maps that look remarkably just like Symbol Set 3 with solid black walls and a bit more tech added in.
Cyberpunk Red is the sequal to Cyberpunk 2020. It is set a couple of decades before the video game Cyberpunk 2077. It is still an 80's take on cyberpunk, but with more contemporary clothing. 80's are still a bit trendy, but fading a bit. Anyway, maps of warehouses, streets, corporate HQ. Lots of neon. Some futuristic cars, computers, phone lines, etc. for symbols.
Steampunk is pretty easy since it is about looks rather than genre. Honestly the 1800's floorplans, 1930's city and Cthulhu city work decent enough. Although some period maps were just B&W and others were more colorful for either of those city styles. A modified version of those with aeroports, coal factory symbols, and lots of gears should be simple enough. Or, one could take those an inspirational and instead do a more take on the look.
Being able to draw the deckplans for an airship would be nice. Maybe some weird science type of symbol sets. In any case, as the saying goes, slap some gears on it and call it steampunk.
Comments
Maybe in the October Annual, would be quite fitting for Halloween ^^
I like the mountains. They have a bark-like quality to them.
I agree with the previous comment about the hills being too pointy. They look too much like mountains. The color also seems a little too dark compared to the moutains.
They look very nice Sue!
Thank you everyone :)
I'm having the usual problems I get with connectivity under what I assume would be high pressure weather system, only I can't even open the weather page today, so I will come back later when it improves to respond properly.
@Fersus I think it will be published quite a bit sooner than that. At the moment the target date is April.
@JulianDracos @Quenten It is quite interesting that two of you have commented on the pointy hills, where over in the FB Group no one has mentioned it yet. It seems to be a matter of personal taste.
@Loopysue I meant the corresponding battlemap-styles would be a great addition to the overland style and october was wishful thinking for the release date of that ;)
Looking forward to the overland style anyhow. It looks great so far!
Oh I see!
There is currently no actual plan for a dungeon scale Grimdark style, and a lot of other stuff I'm going to be working on as well as this issue.
So far, I have a shortlist of 5 new issues this year. That's a lot of work as it stands ;)
Well, isn't it all a matter of taste? The issue with the hills is they have the shape of mountains when they are that pointy. Given they have a different look and are smaller, then it seems reasonable that someone just looking at that style would think hills. I am just used to looking at so many different styles that I compare them to other styles and think mountains.
It's a good job I made them less pointy than they were...
But nothing is set in concrete until handover.
@Battlemap Style: Oh there a no plans for corresponding Styles yet? That's odd. I thought that would be a straight forward decision to make one issue with overland and one with a corresponding Dungeon/Battlemap style and maybe one with a city style. Maybe next year then?
Sometimes there are second parts for the same style, like there was for the Spectrum Overland style I did last year, but it is less common for there to be an overland/dungeon style pair.
There's a scale between those two things anyway - city scale. Going straight from Overland to Dungeon scale while completely missing out City scale doesn't make sense. And since doing 3 issues of 12 in exactly the same overall style would mean dedicating 1/4 of the entire annual to just one basic style (which not everyone will be interested in) this is very unlikely to happen.
However, if enough people show an interest in a grimdark dungeon style and can show me what this actually means... There was never really an actual style for Grimdark as far as I am aware, but only a sense of atmosphere... that could be something that might appear at some point in time.
...
I had an idea for a compass I thought you all might like
I completely understand the argument that dedicating 1/4 of a years annual to the same style is somewhat of a risk to take. On the other hand: if there is an interest in a particular style, it's also not really satisfying to only get 1/3 of the assets one would need to make maps of every scale of the style in question.
Maybe the "if there's enough interest" part could be done in advance? You could ask the community at the end of the year if there is a style that's of a particular interest and if this interest is strong enough to justify assets for all 3 scales or just one. That way the risk Profantasy has to take is minimal and we have the chance to get a whole package, if enough people want to do maps in a given style...
Nice compass by the way :)
I must admit I would love a Spectrum update - more waterfalls, settlement symbols, and perhaps a few more fills.
@Fersus The whole point of an annual is to have a wide variety of styles and tools available in each one - something new and different each month. What you are talking about is more akin to a Symbol Set, which might have all three scales in a similar style, or a very much larger collection of symbols and fills for just one. However, a Symbol Set is not something an artist just decides to make. It is something that PF may from time to time decide to invite an artist to create, because it takes a whole lot more time and money and the investment is a much greater risk. For this reason they are normally done by artists who have already proven themselves to be immensely popular, like Mike Schley. Meanwhile, whichever artist gets the job of doing a Symbol Set probably won't have much time left to do anything else - such as another 3-4 issues of this year's Cartographer's Annual - as I am already booked to do.
@Quenten I am glad you like Spectrum so much. Unfortunately there is not enough left over to make it worth another annual issue for a part 3.
...
Here's another compass alternative, though I'm being told they aren't good enough (not gory enough) over on the FB Group page.
Oh! I see. I had the impression, that Symbol sets are a thing of the past and that all new content will now be published in the form of annuals.
Thanks for the explanation!
What about a free issue that sometimes gets added with the annual. I can think of quite a number of things I would like as symbols and a few fills, if you are interested, or can have your arm twisted, or being forced to migrate to Australia.
Sorry Quenten. No time for anything but what I'm already booked to do this year.
For someone who wants a complete style, I think that having one of each map type is important. On the other hand, it does not seem to be the case with other annuals. So perhaps it is best to stick with the old tried and true and offer up a different map style instead of another grimdark.
Very few styles have matching overland/city/dungeon styles. The only ones that comes to mine is Jon Roberts (divided over several annuals with all of overland, city and dungeon) and Mike Schley, with the main set in CC3+ itself, and SS4/SS5 dedicated to dungeon and city. But it isn't the common approach. I guess partly because artists have their preferred environment, dungeon scale artist doesn't necessarily make city or overland map, and a lot of the styles from CC3+ is the artist adapting their existing style for CC3+.
That said, since a city, dungeon and overland style isn't linked together, there is nothing wrong for Sue to make an overland style for 2021, and a dungeon style for another year, like 2022. Both issues of spectrum had to go in the same year because just half of it would be a bit weird for the purchaser of only one of the annuals, but a city style is still fully usable even if you don't own the annual with the overland style. If there are any repeating files (like maybe some of the fills), they can easily go in both.
As for Sue's comment that it has to be a city style in between, I disagree. These are separate map types, and there are no reason all three have to be made. Nice, yes, but not required. Just look at the Mike Schley style. Overland was released with CC3+, SS4 Dungeons of Schley was released almost at the same time, while SS5 Cities of Schley was only released many years later.
You are of course right when you say, that there is nothing wrong with Sue making an overland style now, and a a dungeon style at a later date. Even if there isn't a follow up add on for dungeons, that's totally fine from Sues point of few.
I just had some assumptions on how the annuals come about and the main one was, that some people at Profantasy would decide what should be the styles for the upcoming annuals and after this decisions have been made they go and find People to commision said styles.
With this assumption it made sense to me, that if a certain style got the green light, that there would be plans for corresponding assets for different scales as well. Especially for something like grimdark: that one in particular strikes me as being especially commissioned with RPG campaigns in mind and so i was convinced that these would be on the timetable somewhere.
I hope my posts did not come across as critique on Sue, that was not my intention. I was just having wrong assumptions about how Profantasy is going about this kind of things and that's what confused me.
Usually, the annuals come away the other way around. ProFantasy spots an artist already doing an interesting style (maybe as a result of a tip from the community), and then works with that artist to bring their style into CC3+ (as an annual or symbol set, assuming the artist is willing obviously). This basically means that the map types will reflect what the artist is already doing.
@Loopysue - The compass indicators seem too perfect currently. The human skull should maybe have at least some damaged, worn or missing teeth, and likely be a bit more battered overall - Grimdark, not Clean & Neat, after all! Similarly the other skull (dragon?) could be a bit more battered as well, perhaps.
If the FaceBook group wants something a bit "nastier", you might go for an entire impaled skeleton (or being mischievous, you might imagine it to be some of the more vocal respondents there ?), or possibly a severed head hanging from a gibbet, as that seems both grimmer and darker in general...
@Monsen Thanks Remy :) Your most recent comment is clearer than all of mine put together. It's not an exact science and pretty difficult to describe with great clarity. The arrangement varies depending on the artist. Because I am also employed part time by Profantasy as a Cartographer and Community Assistant (The latter part of that chiefly on FB where experts are a little thinner on the ground than here on the forum) it is sometimes the case that mappers think I have some kind of control over events. That is just plain wrong, though. I am an artist, and that is all I am. I can make suggestions, point to other promising artists, and offer the things I'm working on right now - just like anyone else can, but while PF are extremely good at listening and fortunately for me seem to like quite a lot of the things I do myself, I never make any of the actual decisions about what comes next or what the annual content should be.
@Wyvern Yes, having gathered the information I've been given both here and over on the FB Group I can see that I have been a bit confused about what Grimdark really is. There are some incredibly fuzzy edges to the whole description, and parts where it almost seems to cross over with what, at other times, has been described to me as Steampunk, or which seems to make Grimdark seem to be a horror version of Steampunk. That's ok. I can do that. I just hope everyone is ready for the darker shades of Mouse!
Grimdark is just a marketing term. It is certainly not an artistic style or genre. At most, it refers to a type of fantasy stories that involve amoral or immoral protagonists. The Witcher could be consider this style. Zweihänder Grim & Perilous RPG is a clone of an old Warhamer RPG. It is often marked with grimdark in its marketing. Again, it is all marketing. So, I take this an opportunity for you shape a look for things that people call grimdark. There is nothing for you to really rely on.
Now, if you are looking at other projects, then perhaps you could do a steampunk map set? That is slighly more defined. Or you could do cyberpunk. Cyberpunk Red is selling very well right now.
Funnily enough I was discussing Steampunk with someone else on this thread just a few days ago - not here, but in private.
And what is Cyberpunk Red? From a mapping point of view, I mean. I did a brief image search on those words and all I came up with was a whole load of video game graphics, not maps.
EDIT: I added the word "map" to the search phrase and came up with a whole load of dungeon and city maps that look remarkably just like Symbol Set 3 with solid black walls and a bit more tech added in.
Cyberpunk Red is the sequal to Cyberpunk 2020. It is set a couple of decades before the video game Cyberpunk 2077. It is still an 80's take on cyberpunk, but with more contemporary clothing. 80's are still a bit trendy, but fading a bit. Anyway, maps of warehouses, streets, corporate HQ. Lots of neon. Some futuristic cars, computers, phone lines, etc. for symbols.
Steampunk is pretty easy since it is about looks rather than genre. Honestly the 1800's floorplans, 1930's city and Cthulhu city work decent enough. Although some period maps were just B&W and others were more colorful for either of those city styles. A modified version of those with aeroports, coal factory symbols, and lots of gears should be simple enough. Or, one could take those an inspirational and instead do a more take on the look.
Being able to draw the deckplans for an airship would be nice. Maybe some weird science type of symbol sets. In any case, as the saying goes, slap some gears on it and call it steampunk.
Looks like a fantastic project, Sue. Guess I've been away too long!
Scott! Hello there :D
Thank you very much.
I do hope everything is ok over there :)
Ok. How am I doing?
I want to say "looking good", but I'm not sure that's an appropriate comment, even if the sentiment's right ?