Jim will know far better than me, but I think that might be too complex for the generally-preferred Traveller mapping methods, Sue. Plus it's not easy to present the necessary information with sufficient clarity once you start to think of that ISO style projection for what are essentially 3D objects composed of dots in space all at different distances from the viewer (i.e. a typical star cluster at a scale which can be readily viewed and mapped on a straightforward chart).
The problem would easily be solved if I could place 10 columns and 8 rows of stars in one cube area...
The star cluster I am working on is one sector of 16 sub-sectors.
To use an Iso map, I would have to place the planet symbols, names, hexagon numbers, and show any X-Boat, messenger, routes. It may or may not be possible. I'll try and look at it.
Actually, I'm not certain what that 3D map I posted on the other thread is for.
Here is one that may work. Have to rotate the hex grid though. The letters are the same levels on my overhead map of the Breloss Star Cluster. I would have to use one of these for each of the 8 rows. Some rows on some levels are empty, but this would show the spatial relationships better. That would mean 128 of these maps.
And I can remove the word 'Layer' as this is for all 7 levels.
What's the hex-scale here, Jim? Just wondering why you need 128 maps for the 10 x 8 hex 2D cross-section, as that suggests a long tubular structure heading away from the viewer to me. As I said though, Traveller's not my strong suit, and I can't really remember what the jargon meanings are for "sector", "sub-sector", etc.
Really pleased you weren't sure what that other diagram was either - thought it was likely just me!
Sectors are made up of 16 sub-sectors. Each Sub-Sector has 8 columns to place planets. The scale of each hexagon is one light year.
Seven levels per vertical map. 10 x 8 x 7 = a maximum of 560 stars. I'm not going to place that many stars in any sub-sector, too crowded. It would be 8 maps per Sub-Sector. It would be 128 of these vertical maps per sector.
Thanks, Jim. That does clarify things a bit, but does this mean each hex is a sector, a sub-sector, or something else? From what you've said, I'd guess at one hex being some small fraction of a sub-sector, though that's assuming each hex represents a one-level region of one of the eight columns (of hexes?) in a sub-sector. And is each hex also a 1 light-year deep "tube"?
Maybe I should just go and see if I can find some basic Traveller mapping info online, and stop hassling you with it all, given I started out trying to help, only to realise I didn't understand enough of what you were wanting to map to do so (and am still not that sure!)...
If you only want to do a few of the more interesting bits in one of those two views, the best way is probably inset maps? Insets are usually a bigger scale, though - to show more detail.
Otherwise its really two separate maps side by side.
Well, in order to put trade routes in... I would have to map all of the vertical slices that have solar systems. Most of the horizontal sub-sectors are done. Well, levels 7, 6, 5, and most of 4 are done. That leaves levels 1, 2, and 3 left to do. About 618 planets in the star cluster, with 300 done.
Done a bit more digging regarding Traveller, but it's all been a bit overwhelming, given the number of different versions of the game there've been over time (which I hadn't appreciated), and the overall variable information about each that's available online. Too many places seem to assume you'll already know enough about it to navigate quite complex website layouts with minimal help, whereas all I really wanted was some - to me fairly basic - information regarding the stellar mapping conventions used!
From the information on the Wikipedia Traveller RPG page, it seems what little I knew came from what's now called "Classic Traveller", though judging by your own website Jim, you've moved on to what I think is called "Traveller5", the 2013 version (as that's the one by Far Future Enterprises; Mongoose Publishing seem to have a more recent - 2016 - version of the game system in print, if that Wikipedia page is right, though I suspect this may be using a variant universe and/or game system).
I got pretty lost among the Traveller Wiki (not Wikipedia!) pages, as that one you linked to above had almost no useful information - it's only about the original Book 0 from "Classic Traveller" - and the links from the homepage available from that didn't really point me anywhere useful regarding stellar mapping.
I did eventually stumble upon some information elsewhere, including PDF versions of various of the rules (I'll not link to these, as I suspect some or possibly all may be pirated), some of which seemed to relate to the parameters you'd mentioned already (like the 8 x 10 hex subsector layout), although most seem to suggest the basic mapping hex size for both Classic and Traveller5 is 1 parsec (so 3.26 light years), rather than 1 light year. I'm not sure if that applies to what you're doing though, as it is noted this is just a suggested, or approximate size in what I found. [PRE-POST EDIT: However, I see from a check in case this topic had been updated while I was typing, that you've already added a new topic on mapping the vertical and horizontal Traveller subsectors here, which mentions the hex sizes as 1 parsec across.]
As for your more recent question, as Sue already said, I think you'll have to go with a top-down and side-view map side-by-side for clarity. Even that can be quite complex to appreciate in viewing, as I did something similar with my long-ago galactic mapping noted previously.
Yeah... I'm not too aquainted with Traveller. It is one parsec not one light year for the hexagons. I don't have version 5. I have CT, GURPS, and a few Mongoose books.
I put my maps on the other side of the galaxy from the oficial Traveller universe ( OTU). Mine is more of the ATU, Alternate Traveller universe. Mine is basically located in the visual shadow of the galaxy core. There is a wedge of the Milky Way galaxy that we on Earth cannot see due to all of the dust around and near the core.
The problem I have always had with wikis is you have to know what terms to search for in order to find things. But if you don't know much about a particular subject, their mystery navigation is a pain to use. Thats why I try to have site navigation menus on my web sites.
Its my understanding that Mongoose is similar but parallel to FFE's version.
Thanks Jim. I'd assumed you were our resident Traveller expert on all matters pertaining to the RPG! Mind you, having recently found out how many different versions there've been over time, that would be a pretty tall order for anyone, I suspect.
To be honest, and approaching as a long-standing astronomer, I've never liked parsecs as a distance measure, as they're much too arbitrary, being based on the Earth's distance from the Sun. But they're easy to apply computationally to raw observations made from Earth, so what can you do?
I think you're sensible in setting your bit of the universe as discrete from the official Traveller one. My own ancient galactic mapping was done to pull together a number of different wargame (tabletop and boardgame) settings into the same general region of the galaxy, and because I wasn't reliant on any already-published settings, I simply used our own galactic neighbourhood, so I could fit it in with what was known of real-world stellar and deep-sky object locations. I'd intended to also include the features from the Humanx Commonwealth novels by Alan Dean Foster, long my favourite series of science-fiction stories, but was beaten to it by other fans of the books coupled with various unwanted facets of our reality. However, it's good to know this setting's details are fully available online via the series' author's own website here.
<blockquote><cite>Posted By: JimP</cite>I thought, when I first encountered it, the parsec was useful. But there should be a term other than kiloparsec and megaparsec.</blockquote>
The parsec is an SI now, so technically you can put all the fractional prefixes on it, right? Although I think the AU is still usually used.
According to Wikipedia (the Parsec page is here), since 2012 - I couldn't recall the date - the parsec has had an official SI definition via the International Astronomical Union. It's given in metres. So yes, kilo-, mega- and giga- parsecs are all in common scientific usage. You may also wish to check out the definition for the attoparsec from the link at the end of that Wikipedia page ;D
Beaten to the light-year definition earlier, of course. And yes, that's also based on an earthly measure, the year, so isn't much more universal as a system than the parsec. It is though rather less esoteric a concept to explain! Light-year Wikipedia page is here, should anyone need it.
[EDIT: Oops, forgot a link for the Astronomical Unit Wikipedia page as well - it's here. Worth noting that very precise definitions of the "year" (Julian year, in the case of the light-year as used nowadays) and Earth-Sun distance have had to be established in order to actually define these - partly hence the Wikipedia links.]
Lets see... Level 4 is done. Part of level 3 is done. About 150 planets to draw with FT3 ( for levels 1, 2, and 3), name, figure out where to place them, make sub-sector, and edit Sector, maps, to go. And make new sub-sector, and sector maps, for levels 1 and 2. Wheeee !
Well, a bit longer than that. Level 1 and 2 have few solar systems. I have completed 4 sub-sectors of level 3. Just 12 more to go on level 3.
Then upload over 100 planet maps, type up articles in textpattern, upload sub-sector, and the new sector maps for these levels, and tie them together with links. Could take a few days for that.
Levels 3 and 4 are the densest areas.
Then I'll switch to something simpler, another Atlas map or maybe something on Crestar. Maybe a nap in there somewhere to.
You all may not be able to see them clearly, but any planet covered with a hollow white oval over it has been mapped and entered as to location, etc. in a spreadsheet.
Just adding planet symbols to a sub-secrtor and sector map isn't hard, its rather easy. To do all of this, I had to make, and continue to do so, planet maps in FT3, export as Cosmographer planets. typing info such as diameter, % ocean, etc. in a spreadsheet.
Plan out the Sector, sub-sector, and level for the star cluster. Add more planet names to another spreadsheet, in alphabetical order. Another psreadsheet is used to track by sectors and sub-sectors.
After all that is done. Upload the png files, type in the articles in my blog/cms, add links on the sub-sector pages to each planet map, add links on the sector maps to each sub-sector article.
I've never uploaded and done this for more than 30 or 40 planets before. This will be over 200 planets... I suspect it will take me around a week, or maybe two, to complete.
Well, this has taken me off and on over a year. FT3 can export planets, its tying them all together thats difficult.
As you progress, you will speed up. Some of the Annuals, like the Issue 66 Isometric Dungeons, and Issue 111 Temple of Bones, are easier to make quick dungeons with.
Issue 56, Vertical Dungeons, I have a hard time with.
Comments
The star cluster I am working on is one sector of 16 sub-sectors.
To use an Iso map, I would have to place the planet symbols, names, hexagon numbers, and show any X-Boat, messenger, routes. It may or may not be possible. I'll try and look at it.
Here is one that may work. Have to rotate the hex grid though. The letters are the same levels on my overhead map of the Breloss Star Cluster. I would have to use one of these for each of the 8 rows. Some rows on some levels are empty, but this would show the spatial relationships better. That would mean 128 of these maps.
And I can remove the word 'Layer' as this is for all 7 levels.
Really pleased you weren't sure what that other diagram was either - thought it was likely just me!
Seven levels per vertical map. 10 x 8 x 7 = a maximum of 560 stars. I'm not going to place that many stars in any sub-sector, too crowded. It would be 8 maps per Sub-Sector. It would be 128 of these vertical maps per sector.
Is that clearer ?
Maybe I should just go and see if I can find some basic Traveller mapping info online, and stop hassling you with it all, given I started out trying to help, only to realise I didn't understand enough of what you were wanting to map to do so (and am still not that sure!)...
Here is the Traveller wiki introduction page. I haven't used it so I don't know what all it has.
Not a hassle.
Of course, the remining problem is; how do I combine the side view and the top down view visually in a map ?
When I get more progress, I'll make a new thread of the side view sub-secotr maps and top down view of the same sub-sector.
If you only want to do a few of the more interesting bits in one of those two views, the best way is probably inset maps? Insets are usually a bigger scale, though - to show more detail.
Otherwise its really two separate maps side by side.
From the information on the Wikipedia Traveller RPG page, it seems what little I knew came from what's now called "Classic Traveller", though judging by your own website Jim, you've moved on to what I think is called "Traveller5", the 2013 version (as that's the one by Far Future Enterprises; Mongoose Publishing seem to have a more recent - 2016 - version of the game system in print, if that Wikipedia page is right, though I suspect this may be using a variant universe and/or game system).
I got pretty lost among the Traveller Wiki (not Wikipedia!) pages, as that one you linked to above had almost no useful information - it's only about the original Book 0 from "Classic Traveller" - and the links from the homepage available from that didn't really point me anywhere useful regarding stellar mapping.
I did eventually stumble upon some information elsewhere, including PDF versions of various of the rules (I'll not link to these, as I suspect some or possibly all may be pirated), some of which seemed to relate to the parameters you'd mentioned already (like the 8 x 10 hex subsector layout), although most seem to suggest the basic mapping hex size for both Classic and Traveller5 is 1 parsec (so 3.26 light years), rather than 1 light year. I'm not sure if that applies to what you're doing though, as it is noted this is just a suggested, or approximate size in what I found. [PRE-POST EDIT: However, I see from a check in case this topic had been updated while I was typing, that you've already added a new topic on mapping the vertical and horizontal Traveller subsectors here, which mentions the hex sizes as 1 parsec across.]
As for your more recent question, as Sue already said, I think you'll have to go with a top-down and side-view map side-by-side for clarity. Even that can be quite complex to appreciate in viewing, as I did something similar with my long-ago galactic mapping noted previously.
I put my maps on the other side of the galaxy from the oficial Traveller universe ( OTU). Mine is more of the ATU, Alternate Traveller universe. Mine is basically located in the visual shadow of the galaxy core. There is a wedge of the Milky Way galaxy that we on Earth cannot see due to all of the dust around and near the core.
The problem I have always had with wikis is you have to know what terms to search for in order to find things. But if you don't know much about a particular subject, their mystery navigation is a pain to use. Thats why I try to have site navigation menus on my web sites.
Its my understanding that Mongoose is similar but parallel to FFE's version.
To be honest, and approaching as a long-standing astronomer, I've never liked parsecs as a distance measure, as they're much too arbitrary, being based on the Earth's distance from the Sun. But they're easy to apply computationally to raw observations made from Earth, so what can you do?
I think you're sensible in setting your bit of the universe as discrete from the official Traveller one. My own ancient galactic mapping was done to pull together a number of different wargame (tabletop and boardgame) settings into the same general region of the galaxy, and because I wasn't reliant on any already-published settings, I simply used our own galactic neighbourhood, so I could fit it in with what was known of real-world stellar and deep-sky object locations. I'd intended to also include the features from the Humanx Commonwealth novels by Alan Dean Foster, long my favourite series of science-fiction stories, but was beaten to it by other fans of the books coupled with various unwanted facets of our reality. However, it's good to know this setting's details are fully available online via the series' author's own website here.
Isn't light year based on the amount of time it takes a beam of light to travel in one year ?
The parsec is an SI now, so technically you can put all the fractional prefixes on it, right? Although I think the AU is still usually used.
I've heard astronomers on 'How the Universe is Made' show use megaparsec. I just think a better term could be used but its not up to me.
Beaten to the light-year definition earlier, of course. And yes, that's also based on an earthly measure, the year, so isn't much more universal as a system than the parsec. It is though rather less esoteric a concept to explain! Light-year Wikipedia page is here, should anyone need it.
[EDIT: Oops, forgot a link for the Astronomical Unit Wikipedia page as well - it's here. Worth noting that very precise definitions of the "year" (Julian year, in the case of the light-year as used nowadays) and Earth-Sun distance have had to be established in order to actually define these - partly hence the Wikipedia links.]
I just did about 100 FT3 planet exports to get me staerted. 318 planets left to place, 300 done. In the cluster that is.
Then upload over 100 planet maps, type up articles in textpattern, upload sub-sector, and the new sector maps for these levels, and tie them together with links. Could take a few days for that.
Levels 3 and 4 are the densest areas.
Then I'll switch to something simpler, another Atlas map or maybe something on Crestar. Maybe a nap in there somewhere to.
You all may not be able to see them clearly, but any planet covered with a hollow white oval over it has been mapped and entered as to location, etc. in a spreadsheet.
I think only 22 planets to maps and place on level 1, less than a hundred on level 2. I moved some... so I'm not sure of quantities on level 1 and 2.
Taking a break for a day or two from mapping planets.
I can't imagine doing all that stuff and never pausing to come up for air.
Congratulations!
Just adding planet symbols to a sub-secrtor and sector map isn't hard, its rather easy. To do all of this, I had to make, and continue to do so, planet maps in FT3, export as Cosmographer planets. typing info such as diameter, % ocean, etc. in a spreadsheet.
Plan out the Sector, sub-sector, and level for the star cluster. Add more planet names to another spreadsheet, in alphabetical order. Another psreadsheet is used to track by sectors and sub-sectors.
After all that is done. Upload the png files, type in the articles in my blog/cms, add links on the sub-sector pages to each planet map, add links on the sector maps to each sub-sector article.
I've never uploaded and done this for more than 30 or 40 planets before. This will be over 200 planets... I suspect it will take me around a week, or maybe two, to complete.
But not today.
As you progress, you will speed up. Some of the Annuals, like the Issue 66 Isometric Dungeons, and Issue 111 Temple of Bones, are easier to make quick dungeons with.
Issue 56, Vertical Dungeons, I have a hard time with.