Lights and Walls

So I thought I had understood the light source stuff from going through older threads, but apparently I didn't. My lights shine right through my walls.

Here's what I did:
1. Put the Point Light Setup on the Walls sheet
2. Created light sources in their on layer but on the Walls sheet
3. Put the Point Light Finalize on it's own sheet (lights end) below the Walls sheet

As you can see, I tried adding a seperate sheet for interior lights as opposed to the blueish lights I spread over the map to generate something akin to moonlight. Doesn't change anything.
I'm pretty sure it's a very simple mistake I'm making probably with my sheet order or something, but I can't figure it out.
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  • edited February 2020
    Well, I'm stumped.

    I tried everything I could think of: moving the light to different sheets, copying the walls to a different sheet (between point light setup and finalize), added the finalize effect right to the walls sheet, created a test map with a single room and of course it worked there, created a sheet simply for the point setup effect - all to no avail. I really have no idea what else to try. Any ideas would be welcome!

    My last resort would be just adding more windows, so there's a reason for the light beyond the walls. But that feels like giving up...
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 39 images Cartographer
    Hi Merion :)

    You haven't been forgotten, don't worry. This gets me confused as well sometimes, which is why I was waiting for someone else to answer the problem.

    However, seeing that no one has I will attempt to help you. Do you think you could please share your file with me? You can do that by whisper if you would prefer, or just share it openly in case any of the experts are around to jump in and save the day for us both :)
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 39 images Cartographer
    In the meantime can I suggest a few simple checks/actions?

    - Check that the walls are actually on the WALLS sheet and not some other sheet.

    - Try turning off that Glow effect on the WALLS sheet.

    - Make sure that all the lights outside the building are actually of that dark blue type, and not the bright yellow ones.

    - Move the lights to their own sheet without any effects on it, so it is less confusing to sort them out. At the moment they have a Glow and a Bevel on them, which they shouldn't have.
  • Thanks for your answers!

    I already did move the light to their own sheet with no effects and as far as I can tell, the walls are where they should be.

    I was hesitant to share the .fcw as there surely is some messy stuff going on. Very likely I put some things on the wrong layers and sheets, but nothing that correlates to this issue - again, as far as I can tell. But alright, here goes, you'll find it attached. Just please bear in mind that this is my first map with CC3(+) since 2011.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 39 images Cartographer
    Don't worry :)

    I will have a look at it now and see if I can work out what's wrong, then give it back to you if I succeed - along with a brief explanation.

    However, if anyone more expert at this kind of thing just comes along in the meantime I won't be all that upset if you crack it first.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 39 images Cartographer
    Oh dear!

    I can't seem to work it out at all, Merion.

    I think this might need someone like Remy Monsen to sort it out.

    As far as I can see it should work, but that only means I'm missing the problem just as much as you are.

    Sorry!

    I am sure that someone will come along and rescue us both soon.
  • No worries, thank you very much for trying!

    At the least this means I'm not completely stupid and overlooking something obvious. That's a relief already.

    And if all else fails, I just put in a few window slits to make it look intentional - you know, for ventilation of the outhouse ;-)
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 39 images Cartographer
    LOL! I love the idea of the window slits.

    Lets just hope that someone more brainy than the both of us will come along and help soon.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 46 images Cartographer
    edited February 2020
    It's your shadow length in the point light setup on the wall sheet. You have said that the shadows should only be 3 feet long, which indirectly sets the height of the wall. (It doesn't mean the wall is 3 foot tall, but that it is short enough to just cast a 3 foot shadow instead of blocking the light completely) A full wall should always have a shadow length of infinity (0) since it is supposed to completely block the light.

    Also, instead of throwing all those weak light sources in the darkness outside the building, you'll probably be better off by specifying a bit of shadow transparency in the global sun dialog, and if you want a slightly more bluish hue, set the color of the shadow on the point light finalize sheet to a dark blue instead of black.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 39 images Cartographer
    edited February 2020
    OMG! LOL!

    Well, thank you so much, Remy! :D

    I'd have never have worked it out myself.

    I think I should join ICantBelieveIDidntSeeThat.com
  • Well, blimey!

    How? Why? Shouldn't '0' be default? I never consciously changed that. And never thought to check the shadow properties either... good catch and thank you very much! It works now, obviously.

    I will also try playing with the shadow colour, as you suggested. Even though I'm already quite happy with the results of my blue-light-array.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 46 images Cartographer
    Yes, 0 is the default value in this dialog.
  • Obviously I must have changed it involuntarily at some point. Weird, wonder when that happened. But then again, I'm still in the progress of relearning everything I knew (and more) about CC3+ after a 9 year hiatus.

    So thanks again, don't think I would have ever found that.
  • Aaaand... I have another question. Instead of creating another thread I'll just re-use this one.

    So, how do I save as jpg or print stuff beyond my map border? I thought I simply do not check the "restrict image to map border" but it only goes beyond the map border horizontally, not vertically.
    As you can see on the left side in the attached pic, I have a light source outside the actual map to evoke the impression of light shining through a door into the courtyard. But what gets rendered is on the right side.

    I don't have a problem with needing to cut the saved jpg or png to the actual map borders in a second step after rendering, but how do I get it to render the light source?
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 46 images Cartographer
    Use the 'Save as rectangular section' option (along with having restrict to map border disabled). Then make sure you specify a rectangle large enough to include the point the light source is defined. I believe that should work (although I haven't really experimented with off-map light sources.)
  • Interestingly enough the results look like this. Hiding the map border sheet does not change anything.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 46 images Cartographer
    Yea, that happens because CC3+ cannot render the entire image in one pass, and only effects defined in the area of the current pass will be taken into account.

    Try to increase your pass size. Type in EXPORTSETMPPP on the command line, and enter the value of 4000000 (get the number of zeros right). Then try again.
  • That it did the trick! I had to add another zero - six weren't enough, seven were. I'm very happy and can't thank you enough for your help and patience!
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 46 images Cartographer
    Yea, my bad, should be 7 zeroes. 6 is the default value. That's what I get for telling others to get it right, I misspell the thing myself :)
  • 1 month later
  • Not sure if common pratice here is to resurrect threads or to rather start new one, but as my problem is similar, I thought I'll ask here.

    Thing is, on my new map the light shines right over the next building when I expect it to block the light.

    - The point light setup is on the lights start sheet (and yes, this time shadow length is set to 0 ;) )
    - The point light finalize is on the light end sheet
    - The light sources are on the lights itself sheet (jsut noticing that that should probably be called lights themselves, but whatev)
    - The buildings are on the buildings sheet and as you can see it is between the setup and finalize sheet
    - The directional wall shadows have been turned off

    So... what's wrong this time? I thought I went about it pretty textbook-like this time, but appearently not.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 46 images Cartographer
    Do you have a point light setup on the buildings sheet? You'll need that to tell CC3+ how the buildings cast their shadow.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 39 images Cartographer
    edited April 2020
    There should be a Wall Shadow, Point Light Setup effect on every sheet where there are objects you want to interact with the light sources - for example the sheet with the buildings on it.

    EDIT: Ninjad by Remy whilst trying to find out the full proper name of the sheet effect :P
  • edited April 2020
    I thought everythin inbetween would cast shadows. But even adding a point light setup on every sheet in question before finalize does not do it:
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 39 images Cartographer
    edited April 2020
    Ok, next thing to do is check that the building in question is on that particular sheet, using Info->List. It might be on the Buildings Low sheet instead - or Buildings high.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 46 images Cartographer
    Also note that symbols cast shadows from the end of the symbol, not the start. So a building symbol would still be illuminated itself by the light, even if it is set to block it. Everything beyond it should be blocked though.
  • Oh! That's it then, of course! Thank you, once again!

    This makes total sense for dungeon symbols, but here it's not what I want. The tall building should stop the light coming from the window of the opposite building. So what do I do? Create invisible walls that are congruent with the buildings but not visible? Or is there a more elegant solution?

    Also, any idea how to make the light look like it's coming from a long window instead of a single point like a lamp?
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 46 images Cartographer
    Yes, you'll need to manually draw some extra walls to block the light.
  • edited April 2020
    This works, but any tricks on how to get the lights look less like a spotlight and more like a windows? I mentioned this before - a light source is a point whereas a window or door is a line-like feature.

    Putting two sources next to each other does not work as the intensities add up where they overlap and it is clearly visible that there are several sources.
    Increasing the global sun shadow blur help a little but if someone has a better idea, it would be most welcome.

    And while I'm asking questions - is there a way to pre-set the light intensity, so I don't have to change it for every single light if I don't want the standard 50%?
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 46 images Cartographer
    edited April 2020
    I don't think it can be done just by using light sources, but here is my attempt at windows.

    It places the actual light source under the building, and I use lines with gaps in them to emulate the window gap.

    The building itself is not part of the light setup, and I darkened it artificially by using RGB matrix process on the sheet, giving it the appearance that it lies in darkness.

    Since the building isn't part of the light calculation, it needs manually drawn walls anywhere it should block light, and it won't be possible to also include a light that lighted the roof of some buildings (well, I guess thaose buildings could be on their own sheet that was affected by the lighting, but then they couldn't have windows like this)
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