You seem to have a better imagination than I do! LOL
Yes - if you like - the man can befriend the dragon, though the friendship will not be an easy one. After all, dragons can also get very hungry when prey is scarce! Meanwhile our hero, Arramatapo is on his way with a group of friends... (this is beginning to sound just a bit like Lord of the Rings, isn't it)
Never mind. There's no copyright or plagiarism concerns when all you're doing is dreaming in the privacy of your own mind
So far I am liking it Sue. Being inks, and I am assuming a well worn page, wouldn't the inks bleed a tad more where you have a harder edge line vs the dragons breath is where it softens nicely? Maybe a soft Alpha Blur ???
Just think out loud there, but I am loving this one...although I do miss the Merelan updates, LOL.
LOL - you don't ask for much, Bill! I tried to get the bleed going, but I failed. I continue to work on it though.
Not keen on the orange shade. Think I might adjust it a bit to make it more like a dark yellow. I learned a very important lesson with the Challenge map (Gymnopus P), in that it is better to work with a very limited colour palette. It ties everything in nicely. I think I will go with a palette that is basically blue-green, yellow and dark red (aka brown).
Merelan City will continue. Have no fear. I need it for my book, so I can't abandon it. I wore myself out quite a bit on that Challenge map, so now I'm just having a bit of fun for a couple of days. Now that I've broken away from using the set styles for a moment or two, I'd just like to have a bit of a play before going back to them
Well that could certainly make for some interesting scenes between Our ketchup making prisoner, and Sheleeva!
btw. I don't mind if anyone wants to map the cave or anything. I did think about it, but this 'help me' map is taking longer than I thought it would (mostly because of the drawing of the dragons), so I won't be doing any detail maps - just this one
I love this idea, Sue! I might try something like this in my campaign....great stuff What i don't like, and i am sorry you can tell me to stuff it, it the cup stain. It isn't sitting right with me....maybe more faded around the edges? i dunno, just a suggestion.
LOL! I'm just about to upload the next image, which isn't much different because I spent most of the day trying to draw a more convincing dragon and ended up with only a head left to show for it all.
How do you mean faded around the edges? Paler? I've actually got a Glow on the inner side turning it darker! Maybe I should go with paler? Is that how you mean?
the trouble is that I've never actually seen more than one genuine old piece of parchment - the animal skin parchment, and that was 30 years ago. I wish I could recall more than just the general yellowish greyishness of it.
Anyhow - here is the sum total of today's work. A dreagon's head, and a footpath... oh and better colours (I hope) Still haven't resolved the lack of bleeding into the parchment around the inked areas.
Okay, well nevermind. See.....i was thinking the half circle around the dragon was a goblet stain or something - it obviously is not by the looks of your latest update
Sue: Couple of thoughts. If you need some examples of genuinely old parchment to compare your texturing with, try the Wikipedia Parchment and Vellum webpages. If properly stored, and as the images show, the surface remains remarkably clean and bright. However, if it gets marked or stained, which happens irritatingly easily, and depending on the quality of the animal skin involved, the marks tend to look grainy (because the dirt preferentially collects on the marginally more raised areas across the surface - skin pores, for example), and the sheet also tends to be darker towards all exposed edges (so, wherever light and air have been most able to get at the surface).
The other point is that actual parchment, after it's been kept folded for a while, WILL NOT lay flat, unless it's held by weights or presented under a flat piece of glass (say). So the edges of such a sheet will not look square when viewed "from above", and the folds will be either above (mountains folds) or below (valley folds) the general surface level. This naturally has an effect on shading both across the page, and where it shadows onto the surface it's resting on.
Your page looks great in its latest incarnation, but is much more like good quality paper than "real" parchment.
Thanks Wyvern. That was a really helpful piece of information.
Reflecting on that, I would say that the map will never be finished if I am to try and imitate real parchment. I think it would be better imagined on paper.
I've just thought of something else as well. Didn't the monks at Lindisfarne illuminate their scripts on parchment with tempera? I think that might relate to the fact that the water content of ink washes would be too high for the good of the parchment (tempera being pigment mixed with egg white).
If my memory has served me right over ten years (when I saw the documentary these 'facts' come from), then it would actually be impossible to draw this map in inks on parchment without the parchment wrinkling and rotting, and I had better decide right now that its ordinary paper, or Arramatapo will never have received his father's letter
btw...
@Lorelei - that dirty mark at the top right is the dark sky around the moon! LOL I really must improve my drawing skills! LOL
The map is turning out beautifully. But... it's turning out beautifully.
I don't want to sound churlish, and I really hope I don't but, to me, it looks like a technically-skilled work of art and not like something someone scribbled onto the back of a torn journal page "in the back of a badly lit dragon's cave," fearing for his life. Are those contour lines? It's particularly strange to me that he'd bother using a full set of 12 different colored inks (or even more than two, at most), or an ink wash brush. Could he even distinguish between colored inks under those lighting conditions? Granted, I don't know anything about Arramatapo's father (other than his predicament and his loquaciousness) so maybe the context of the novel makes it clear how and why.
Also, where did he find a carrier pigeon? It appears, from his journal, that he lost everything but his journal and inks. Of course, we can't really read that information from the map itself, only when actually reading the journal entry you devised.
Sorry if I'm overthinking things. It's a habit formed from my own analytical viewpoint and from 30 years of Dungeon Mastering (DMing). This is the sort of stuff good players ask during a game and the stuff they'll base their decisions/plans on so we (DMs) have to be careful when presenting these sorts of scenarios ourselves.
But, as I said, the map itself is turning out beautifully and looks like another print worthy of framing and hanging somewhere in your home .
Latest update: After a nightmare with colour I remembered the very important lesson I learned from Neyjour about restricting the palette and applied it. I also removed the over-detailed drawing of the dragons head and moved that side around a bit to make more room for map, over illustration. Having said that, I will probably be filling most of the bottom panel with a (badly) hand drawn green dragon - it being an otherwise featureless plain.
Although the colours are better than they were before, I'm not convinced that I have them completely right just yet, and I'm still trying to work out how to make the ink washes more... imperfect than they are.
Thanks for taking the time to really look at this map and its story Dogtag
Hmmmn... I see what you mean, and I do actually agree - and no, you're not being churlish. These are all valid and important points
I have been guilty of rather a little too much 'artistic licence'!
Well... how shall I bring the two things together - the story and the appearance of the map?
I think it would be safe to say that Arramatapo's father is an explorer in the good old fashioned British explorer sense, in that he's from a relatively wealthy background - a gentleman in fact. Back in the day it was fashionable for such explorers to either be reasonably good writers and/or cartographers/illustrators, or to have such people in their company as they travelled.
Since he was travelling alone with only his mule for company, we can safely assume that he was both skilled enough to draft a decent map (even given the hardship of his current situation) and that he is more than just slightly eccentric. He'd have to be, to go wandering off into some distant land all alone like that.
I have reduced the colour scheme somewhat for a different reason - the restricted palette I mentioned above, but this could also represent a reduced number of inks. Let's say that he managed to grab one of the smaller saddle bags as he retreated to his current hiding hole, and that all the necessary equipment was in that saddle bag.
As for the pigeon... well, I know from a friend of mine that they don't always leave straight away when released - only the good ones depart with any haste. So lets say the poor bird survived the fall to the cave floor that broke the cage that was on the back of the mule, and was flying around the cavern. Maybe Arramatapo's dad had a handful or so of grain in his pocket as rewards for the mule, and used this to entice the pigeon back into his hiding place and keep it there - possibly intending to make a meal of the poor bird (though he would have had to have eaten her raw). Instead, however, he realised she might be his only chance at getting his message out - his map, which he would have drawn in the space of time that he had while the grain in his pocket lasted to keep the pigeon's close attention - three or four grains at a time.
Hm. Are you you reducing the ~10 colors in the current map to one? Or did I misunderstand? I think that would be huge start. Not particularly aesthetic, but it would fit the scenario. Two colors might also still work, if two inks survived. One for the text and one for the map, maybe? Maybe use the text ink for the path?
In any case, personally, I think there's a lot of art-over-utility to the most recent map, above, given the conditions (little light, rough rock surfaces, hungry dragon, skittish pigeon) and limited time. I would expect, even from an accomplished explorer, more simple line drawings, no contour lines but maybe escarpment marks if the elevation changes are abrupt enough (they don't appear to be, though). Even from a stiff-upper-lipped, pith helmet-wearing, moneyed, 19th-century explorer, I'd expect more quick, desperate, scrawling than beautiful, Nagel-esque art. Also, perhaps given the perilous conditions and driving need, Arramatapo's father might include very specific landmarks, called out with text to ensure they're understood.
Again, I'm not trying to be difficult (I'm afraid it comes naturally). I'm just imagining all the questions, comments, conversation, and planning from my players if I presented this map and scenario during a game. I realize this is for a book, not a game, but the perception and immersion of readers and players is often similar.
I don't envy your decisions on this. It's tough to balance the art you're so clearly talented at creating, and that you want to share with people, with the desperate scenario played out behind the scenes.
I have to agree with Dogtag here, all those colors look weird for what you are trying to depict here. IMHO, the terrain shouldn't be colored at all for a note such as this, simple line drawings make much more sense to me given the situation of the note-author.
Well, considering that this is a forum, I consider any answers in less than 1 hour as extremely fast. Delays are when you start to pass the 24-hour mark
Posted By: LoopysueIt's going to be more difficult to draw that way, but probably worth the attempt
Knowing you, I am sure you'll find a way to make it absolutely stunning. But the challenge in simple drawings is to "suppress" one's natural artistic talents (some of us have less problems in that area than others, due to complete lack of said artistic talent in the first place, but you are not in that group)
Posted By: MonsenWell, considering that this is a forum, I consider any answers in less than 1 hour as extremely fast. Delays are when you start to pass the 24-hour mark
LOL! I'm officially an addicted 'lurker' then
Posted By: MonsenKnowing you, I am sure you'll find a way to make it absolutely stunning. But the challenge in simple drawings is to "suppress" one's natural artistic talents (some of us have less problems in that area than others, due to complete lack of said artistic talent in the first place, but you are not in that group)
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Remy, but if you said "us" meaning you, I totally disagree. You really can't say that any more - not after that entry you did for Shessar's competition!
I have trouble with being a bit over-exuberant with colour. That Gymnopus P map was really difficult for me. I was nearly crawling up the wall with the desire to... er... bend the rules rather a lot, but I'm so glad that I didn't.
Lets see if I can hold the new self discipline with this one
Posted By: LoopysueYou really can't say that any more - not after that entry you did for Shessar's competition!
That map was a highly technical map, it allowed me to handle things I do know how to do well. I am pretty pleased with how it turned out, but it is also pretty clear that it is the technical details that make it good, not the art direction. Notice for example the over-reliance on straight lines and repeated patterns, as well as more focus on individual details than the map as a whole. It is a still a good map, but it is no work of art. But this is why I love CCx, it allows me, the technical guy, to produce decent, and sometimes good maps. Give me PS and I am completely lost. I can use it, but I can't make anything in it.
Posted By: LoopysueI have trouble with being a bit over-exuberant with colour. That Gymnopus P map was really difficult for me. I was nearly crawling up the wall with the desire to... er... bend the rules rather a lot, but I'm so glad that I didn't.
And this is where you prove that you are a good artist, because you manage to produce something wonderful even under such limitations.
If you really want to give it a hand-drawn feel, you might try your luck with the Freehand Sketch tool . Personally, I've never had much luck with it but it might be something to look at, even just for parts of the map.
Posted By: MonsenWell, considering that this is a forum, I consider any answers in less than 1 hour as extremely fast. Delays are when you start to pass the 24-hour mark
And even then maybe not, as far as I'm concerned, depending on the topic/conversation.
Comments
You seem to have a better imagination than I do! LOL
Yes - if you like - the man can befriend the dragon, though the friendship will not be an easy one. After all, dragons can also get very hungry when prey is scarce! Meanwhile our hero, Arramatapo is on his way with a group of friends... (this is beginning to sound just a bit like Lord of the Rings, isn't it)
Never mind. There's no copyright or plagiarism concerns when all you're doing is dreaming in the privacy of your own mind
Just think out loud there, but I am loving this one...although I do miss the Merelan updates, LOL.
Bill
Not keen on the orange shade. Think I might adjust it a bit to make it more like a dark yellow. I learned a very important lesson with the Challenge map (Gymnopus P), in that it is better to work with a very limited colour palette. It ties everything in nicely. I think I will go with a palette that is basically blue-green, yellow and dark red (aka brown).
Merelan City will continue. Have no fear. I need it for my book, so I can't abandon it. I wore myself out quite a bit on that Challenge map, so now I'm just having a bit of fun for a couple of days. Now that I've broken away from using the set styles for a moment or two, I'd just like to have a bit of a play before going back to them
BTW- Everything about Dragons are pure ego. They think they're the biggest stuff in the room; and usually they are.
LLAP
Nacon4
btw. I don't mind if anyone wants to map the cave or anything. I did think about it, but this 'help me' map is taking longer than I thought it would (mostly because of the drawing of the dragons), so I won't be doing any detail maps - just this one
LLAP
Nacon4
LOL! I'm just about to upload the next image, which isn't much different because I spent most of the day trying to draw a more convincing dragon and ended up with only a head left to show for it all.
How do you mean faded around the edges? Paler? I've actually got a Glow on the inner side turning it darker! Maybe I should go with paler? Is that how you mean?
the trouble is that I've never actually seen more than one genuine old piece of parchment - the animal skin parchment, and that was 30 years ago. I wish I could recall more than just the general yellowish greyishness of it.
Anyhow - here is the sum total of today's work. A dreagon's head, and a footpath... oh and better colours (I hope) Still haven't resolved the lack of bleeding into the parchment around the inked areas.
The other point is that actual parchment, after it's been kept folded for a while, WILL NOT lay flat, unless it's held by weights or presented under a flat piece of glass (say). So the edges of such a sheet will not look square when viewed "from above", and the folds will be either above (mountains folds) or below (valley folds) the general surface level. This naturally has an effect on shading both across the page, and where it shadows onto the surface it's resting on.
Your page looks great in its latest incarnation, but is much more like good quality paper than "real" parchment.
Reflecting on that, I would say that the map will never be finished if I am to try and imitate real parchment. I think it would be better imagined on paper.
I've just thought of something else as well. Didn't the monks at Lindisfarne illuminate their scripts on parchment with tempera? I think that might relate to the fact that the water content of ink washes would be too high for the good of the parchment (tempera being pigment mixed with egg white).
If my memory has served me right over ten years (when I saw the documentary these 'facts' come from), then it would actually be impossible to draw this map in inks on parchment without the parchment wrinkling and rotting, and I had better decide right now that its ordinary paper, or Arramatapo will never have received his father's letter
btw...
@Lorelei - that dirty mark at the top right is the dark sky around the moon! LOL I really must improve my drawing skills! LOL
https://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=35653&p=316225&viewfull=1#post316225
I don't want to sound churlish, and I really hope I don't but, to me, it looks like a technically-skilled work of art and not like something someone scribbled onto the back of a torn journal page "in the back of a badly lit dragon's cave," fearing for his life. Are those contour lines? It's particularly strange to me that he'd bother using a full set of 12 different colored inks (or even more than two, at most), or an ink wash brush. Could he even distinguish between colored inks under those lighting conditions? Granted, I don't know anything about Arramatapo's father (other than his predicament and his loquaciousness) so maybe the context of the novel makes it clear how and why.
Also, where did he find a carrier pigeon? It appears, from his journal, that he lost everything but his journal and inks. Of course, we can't really read that information from the map itself, only when actually reading the journal entry you devised.
Sorry if I'm overthinking things. It's a habit formed from my own analytical viewpoint and from 30 years of Dungeon Mastering (DMing). This is the sort of stuff good players ask during a game and the stuff they'll base their decisions/plans on so we (DMs) have to be careful when presenting these sorts of scenarios ourselves.
But, as I said, the map itself is turning out beautifully and looks like another print worthy of framing and hanging somewhere in your home .
Cheers,
~Dogtag
Although the colours are better than they were before, I'm not convinced that I have them completely right just yet, and I'm still trying to work out how to make the ink washes more... imperfect than they are.
C&C welcome
https://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=35653&p=316287&viewfull=1#post316287
Hmmmn... I see what you mean, and I do actually agree - and no, you're not being churlish. These are all valid and important points
I have been guilty of rather a little too much 'artistic licence'!
Well... how shall I bring the two things together - the story and the appearance of the map?
I think it would be safe to say that Arramatapo's father is an explorer in the good old fashioned British explorer sense, in that he's from a relatively wealthy background - a gentleman in fact. Back in the day it was fashionable for such explorers to either be reasonably good writers and/or cartographers/illustrators, or to have such people in their company as they travelled.
Since he was travelling alone with only his mule for company, we can safely assume that he was both skilled enough to draft a decent map (even given the hardship of his current situation) and that he is more than just slightly eccentric. He'd have to be, to go wandering off into some distant land all alone like that.
I have reduced the colour scheme somewhat for a different reason - the restricted palette I mentioned above, but this could also represent a reduced number of inks. Let's say that he managed to grab one of the smaller saddle bags as he retreated to his current hiding hole, and that all the necessary equipment was in that saddle bag.
As for the pigeon... well, I know from a friend of mine that they don't always leave straight away when released - only the good ones depart with any haste. So lets say the poor bird survived the fall to the cave floor that broke the cage that was on the back of the mule, and was flying around the cavern. Maybe Arramatapo's dad had a handful or so of grain in his pocket as rewards for the mule, and used this to entice the pigeon back into his hiding place and keep it there - possibly intending to make a meal of the poor bird (though he would have had to have eaten her raw). Instead, however, he realised she might be his only chance at getting his message out - his map, which he would have drawn in the space of time that he had while the grain in his pocket lasted to keep the pigeon's close attention - three or four grains at a time.
Does that work?
In any case, personally, I think there's a lot of art-over-utility to the most recent map, above, given the conditions (little light, rough rock surfaces, hungry dragon, skittish pigeon) and limited time. I would expect, even from an accomplished explorer, more simple line drawings, no contour lines but maybe escarpment marks if the elevation changes are abrupt enough (they don't appear to be, though). Even from a stiff-upper-lipped, pith helmet-wearing, moneyed, 19th-century explorer, I'd expect more quick, desperate, scrawling than beautiful, Nagel-esque art. Also, perhaps given the perilous conditions and driving need, Arramatapo's father might include very specific landmarks, called out with text to ensure they're understood.
Again, I'm not trying to be difficult (I'm afraid it comes naturally). I'm just imagining all the questions, comments, conversation, and planning from my players if I presented this map and scenario during a game. I realize this is for a book, not a game, but the perception and immersion of readers and players is often similar.
I don't envy your decisions on this. It's tough to balance the art you're so clearly talented at creating, and that you want to share with people, with the desperate scenario played out behind the scenes.
Just my two cents.
~Dogtag
Sorry about the delay in responding - I was cooking dinner! LOL
I agree completely, and I'm beginning to lean towards brown line with very faint sepia tinting - the one colour solution
It's going to be more difficult to draw that way, but probably worth the attempt
I have trouble with being a bit over-exuberant with colour. That Gymnopus P map was really difficult for me. I was nearly crawling up the wall with the desire to... er... bend the rules rather a lot, but I'm so glad that I didn't.
Lets see if I can hold the new self discipline with this one
And this is where you prove that you are a good artist, because you manage to produce something wonderful even under such limitations.
I'm not going to win, so I'll surrender now - and thank you very much for the enormous compliment
Cheers,
~Dogtag