CC3 Plus - Thoughts

AWizardInDallas

I've been a user for many years and enjoy the software a great deal. However, I have a difficult decision to make, which of course has to do with the incomplete state of mostly the annual material. I have used this material in a large number of maps and would like to continue doing so in the new software. I have been using CC3 on my laptop, but finally splurged and bought a great PC. I'm keen to migrate away from the old version of CC3 and adopt usage of the CC3 Plus entirely on my more powerful, new PC. I realize the software has not yet been released and I'm certainly not complaining, just sharing my thoughts. Also, I have noticed that both versions don't really run very well together on the same machine. For one thing, file extension association is entangled and I'm not sure the directory structure doesn't suffer the same issue. I definitely want to install only one version on my new PC and would welcome advice.

Rich

JimP

I run CC2/CC3/CC3+ on one computer.

I just make sure to load the program, then the map, I want to use. I haven't had any interaction between them.

I have them in different directories.

C:\CC2

C:\Profantasy\CC3
C:\Profantasy\CC3Plus

OldGuy

The two versions run flawlessly together on my win 10 machine.

Obviously, file associations can only be set to one or the other (that's how windows works), but you can easily change the association as often as you like or just open files from within the program.

CharlesWayneRobinson

I removed CC3 and upgraded to CC3+, but I did not have a bunch of maps made for CC3.

There seems to be file and directory issues on CC3+ even without having CC3.

This is especially true if you are mixing symbols from different sets.

But a custom symbol catalog can alleviate this challenge.

I still need to make my own custom catalog - which I hope to do over the Christmas break.

AWizardInDallas

Yeah, just trying to avoid the wonderful tradition of Windows system bloat and installation weirdness. For example, CD3+ won't install without the update, but doesn't explain this. It simply says CC3+ not found and dumps out. I will say the new software installation is far less intensive though.

AWizardInDallas

@CWR: In my case, I have a huge number of maps and don't relish the thought of having to do a bunch up updating. For now, I've installed the new software and I'm going to play with it for a few days.

JimP

I'm currently redoing probably the larhgest group of maps I've seen mentioned on this forum. About 2100 maps. I'm back up to about 400 maps at this point.

Dogtag

One thing to keep in mind is that there is no "CD3+" (nor DD3+ or symbol sets+). I mentioned this in another discussion, but I think it's worth repeating here. DD3, CD3, and the symbol sets are compatible with CC3+ now but the products haven't been upgraded or improved. They are the same as the CC3 versions, it's just that they've been adjusted so they work with CC3+.

To accomplish that, ProFantasy has developed different installers for the compatible add-ons. Be sure to use the correct installer, depending on which program you're installing for (CC3 or CC3+). If you want to use CD3 with both CC3 and CC3+, for example, you'll need to install it twice, once for each program, using two different installers. Again, both versions can peacefully coexist on one machine, but maps made via CC3 may not display correctly, for now, in CC3+, and vice-versa due to the different underlying folder structures. That's going to depend on whether you have the same add-ons installed for both products. The primary culprits causing trouble right now are the annuals.

The new Perspectives version coming out in a few months, on the other hand, will be an upgraded product and will only work with CC3+.

Cheers,
~Dogtag

CharlesWayneRobinson

But there are problems within CC3+ that I have encountered with using symbols from both provided symbol catalogs within a single style.

From what I understand, it is a naming issue.

Monson told me how to make my own symbol catalog to overcome this, but I just have not had the time to set down and do it yet.

If each style had unique names for it symbols, it would expand the usefulness, and therefore value, of the product offerings.

Blackadder23

The main reason I got CC3+ was for the Mike Schley overland style, which looked absolutely beautiful in the previews. Ironically, once I started using CC3+ I didn't like the style as well as I thought I would. (Don't get me wrong: the Schley style is very nice, there are just several other styles I like better.) So even though CC3+ does run faster and better, and I haven't seen any issues with it while running Windows 7 (I'll "upgrade" to Windows 10 over my cold, dead body), I can't personally recommend it until more of the annuals and other products are converted to work with it. Certainly I wouldn't recommend using ONLY CC3+ at this point. Just my opinion!

AEIOU

I think we've all been extremely patient. But the wait for the Annuals has been a bit too long.

JimP

Small company. I think Profantasy will do a good job. And CC3+ isn't in full release yet.

I decided to make the arcology dungeon, mentioned in these forums, in CC3+.

As for a list of what is compatible, its been mentioned several times in here, a search will find it.

Barliman

"I think we've all been extremely patient. But the wait for the Annuals has been a bit too long."

I'm slavering for the updated annuals, too, but, to be realistic about this, there are core products that have to come first, including the finalized** CC3+ and genuine "plus" versions of CD3 and DD3.

**(Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this "early adopter" version that's out essentially a late beta or release candidate?)

JimP

Yes, early adopter on CC3+.

OldGuy

Posted By: AEIOUI think we've all been extremely patient. But the wait for the Annuals has been a bit too long.

There is no need to "be patient". All of the annuals currently work with CC3 as advertised.

There is also a new version of the software (CC3+) in development. At some point, after it has been released, the annuals will all be updated to work with that version as well (free of charge, to current annual users, if I understand correctly).

AEIOU

We're rapidly coming up on a year of pre-release. I guess my expectations are unreasonable. My apologies.

Blackadder23

^^^^
Everything said in the last few posts is perfectly true, which is why I wouldn't recommend installing ONLY CC3+ (as the OP suggested he might). There's still too much that doesn't work with it. If I HAD to choose, I would probably install only CC3 at this time (but I don't have to choose, so I installed both).

kevbeck43

I don't think I am going to download CC3+ until all of these bugs are ironed out. I have CC3 now and it works just fine for the maps I make. I would rather have a seemless installation of the update than have to work around everything. If this update works well when installing with CC3 already installed that would change my opinion, does it?

Dogtag

Yes, CC3+ works normally when installed on a machine that already has CC3. Both programs, and their resources like symbols and fills, live in different folder structures. That's the primary reason the Annuals don't work with CC3+ out of the box — the Annuals are organized to work within the CC3 folder structure.

One thing to be careful of is that, on a Windows system at least, only one of them (CC3 or CC3+) will be associated with FCW map files, so only one of them will open maps by double-clicking the file within a file browser. Both of them, however, will open maps normally via their respective File>Open menu commands or Open toolbar buttons.

Cheers,
~Dogtag

kevbeck43

Posted By: DogtagYes, CC3+ works normally when installed on a machine that already has CC3. Both programs, and their resources, like symbols and fills, live in different folder structures. That's the primary reason the Annuals don't work with CC3+ out of the box — the Annuals are organized to work within the CC3 folder structure.

One thing to be careful of is that, on a Windows system at least, only one of them (CC3 or CC3+) will be associated withFCWmap files, so only one of them will open maps by double-clicking. Both of them, however, will open maps via their respectiveFile>Openmenu commands orOpentoolbar buttons.

Cheers,
~Dogtag

That actually sounds like a simple fix. Wouldn't I just have to move my annuals into the CC3+ folder they belonged in?

Dogtag

There's a little more to it than that but, I think that's part of it. I believe another part is that some annuals may contain menus or macros that need to be edited. There might be an issue with some drawing tools and associated fills, but I honestly don't know. I'm not at my CC3/CC3+ machine to test. Maybe someone with mad CC3 skillz can pop on and answer that better.

I was thinking about this earlier, though, and I may try to "convert" an annual when I have a chance, just to see what might be involved. I know that some annuals add toolbar buttons and macros, and that might be tricky, depending on how paths are referenced.

Or, I could be completely wrong. It's bound to happen sometime.

~Dogtag

Monsen

Unfortunately, it is a bit more involved than that. Just copying the files into the CC3 Plus folder structure will make it appear to work, and some things do also work, but you will encounter issues. In many cases, the conversion also requires changes to CC3+ itself, which is part of the reason that this takes time, and why CC3+ isn't fully ready yet either.

Personally, I prefer having both CC3 and CC3+ installed side by side. There are no problems with this, except from the fact that only one can "own" the file type, so you need to open maps from inside the appropriate program instead of double-clicking the map files, and obviously, it takes more space on your drive. I like CC3+, it is quite a bit better than CC3, and I use it when I can, but for a lot of my maps, I still use CC3.

To alleviate the minor problems I mentioned above, I did two things, I added an 'Open with CC3' and 'Open with CC3+' to the right click context menu of .fcw files, and I use file system soft links to share the artwork directories between the installation to save space by not doubling up on artwork (which is the space-consuming part of CC3(+), the programs themselves takes up next to nothing). Both these things are quite technical and can make a big mess if you do them wrongly, so I strongly recommend that you only attempt doing this if you already know how to do it.

kevbeck43

Monsen,

It sounds to me like I could download CC3+ as a complete and separate program from CC3, like having The Elder Scrolls and The Witcher on the same drive. If that is the case I might just do that. I have no desire to go through a bunch of technical fixes to make the software work with what I already have.

CharlesWayneRobinson

I have just CC3+ on my computer and it does most of the things that I need:
1. World/Regional Maps
2. City Maps
3. Buildings, dungeons, and battle maps.

Right now, the only thing I am missing is Character Artist to provide the inhabitants for my world.

There are a few hick-ups, but as mentioned, this is an early adopter program.

It is good that we mention challenges involved with the product though so the makers can adjust fire.

But I have to say, I really love this product. :-)

I remember being an early beta tester for Field of Glory from Slitherine.

It went through all kinds of changes based off of our feedback.

It ended up winning awards.

Some of the scenarios that I designed actually made it into the game.

I don't mind working through the bugs with early adopter and beta launches because I know that the process makes for a superior product.

It feels great to be part of that. :-)

Vintyri

Posted By: AEIOUI think we've all been extremely patient. But the wait for the Annuals has been a bit too long.

While I understand the desire to get everything up and running in CC3+, I think we first need a version of CC3+ that runs as well as CC3. The early adopter version of CC3+ - which by no means is a final release version - is not at that point yet. It runs well and is quite usable, but there are a number of small things that still have problems. ProFantasy is working on these things. The thing I think we should await the most right now is not an update of the annuals or new versions of DD3 and CD3 (as opposed to the current conversions) but rather the final full release version of CC3+.

Those who are impatient should buy Remy's "Tome of Ultimate Mapping," which will teach you much of what you need to know to convert the annuals yourself. Additional things include:

1. Opening macros, menu files, etc., and changing "#" to "@".

2. Open each catalog of the annual file (.fsc) in CC3+, enter the command FFIX + the Enter key and save the FSC file. That converts it to a CC3+ catalog.

3. Click the Symbol Catalog Settings icon and add the catalogs from the annuals to the right catalog group (or create a new one). Save your new settings.

Mark Oliva
The Vintyri (TM) Project
info@vintyri.org

Monsen

Posted By: kevbeck43It sounds to me like I could download CC3+ as a complete and separate program from CC3

Yes, that is correct.

Posted By: VintyriThose who are impatient should buy Remy's "Tome of Ultimate Mapping," which will teach you much of what you need to know to convert the annuals yourself

Just to clarify, yes, the book does contain much of that information, but there is no dedicated chapter or section or anything like that, the information is found in various places throughout the book, so don't buy it expecting a 'how to convert' tutorial.

AWizardInDallas

Thanks to all for your thoughts. I see that it is too early to rely solely on CC3+ and that I will need to install both. However, I think CC3+ will be an excellent product when it's completed.

Holiday Cheers,
Rich