Fractal terrain - series of black dotted horizontal lines?

I've noticed when generating worlds that I often end up with random-looking series of black dotted lines. Have not yet noticed any particular world settings that cause them to appear or disappear. Any ideas?

--David

Comments

  • edited June 2014
    Possibility#1: It may have something to do with your monitor resolution - boost up or trim down the editing resolution in the World Settings window (Map > World Settings > Editing) to be more in line with your monitor resolution (i.e. Editing resolution might be set either too low or too high for your monitor to handle right) - or change your display resolution itself through Windows Control Panel (I seriously doubt that this is actually the problem here ).

    Possibility#2: You may need to check your video card to see if it is getting too hot - and may need replacing (likely NOT the problem - since that kind of error with a video card, should NOT cause these artifacts to be recorded onto an outputted / exported image - but it never hurts to check your card anyway).

    Possibility#3: You may have insufficient RAM - boost to 2 Gig + (4 gig recommendation).

    Possibility#4: The problem is operator error, or simply some kooky FT Pro / FT3 settings - you need to simply change some settings within FT Pro / FT3 (most likely scenario, I would think - Joe might have some suggestions along those lines).

    Possibility#5: It's a minor bug / glitch that you can resolve by downloading the latest patch for your version of Fractal Terrains from your product registration page.

    Possibility#6: Your using a computer with a processor that is overheating, older, or that is on the verge of failing / needing replacing (unlikely - but still a non-zero possibility).

    These are all viable possibilities that I'm suggesting - but I would advise you - that your very best recourse is to wait for a thread response from Joe Slayton - FT Programmer...
  • jslaytonjslayton Moderator, ProFantasy Mapmaker
    I have seen that before and it's a definitely a bug. I don't recall the exact version where it was fixed, but I think that the current version from the ProFantasy site should have that issue resolved. If not, please make a bug report. Keep pressure on them lazy developers!

    The little gnome that runs my memory told me that those "features" will sometimes go away if you refresh the display. Using Tools>>Actions>>Normalize Data will do a refresh that shouldn't change the world data (if it does change world data it would be fixing some bad things like infinities or NaNs in the data).
  • edited June 2014
    Thanks. I've just now observed the same dotted line effect and also a black pepper effect on my laptop so I'll prepare a bug report. Both my desktop and laptop are i7's with 32Gb and 16Gb of ram respectively. Originally thought it might be a vram problem with the desktop, but seeing it on my laptop points to something going on with the program and/or my settings. Not aware of any heat problems.

    Laptop is 1920x1080 and desktop is 2560x1600. And both have dual monitors at that resolution--didn't specifically test, but didn't notice a difference between which of the dual monitors I used.

    I'm running Fractal Terrain version 3.0.12.

    I did notice it wasn't happening 100% of the time--on the laptop just now, regen'ing a new world about 1/3 of the time it would look OK, 1/3 of the time I'd get a black speckled effect and 1/3 of the time the dotted horizontal lines.

    --David
  • edited June 2014
    Posted By: dmjungThanks. I've just now observed the same dotted line effect and also a black pepper effect on my laptop so I'll prepare a bug report. Both my desktop and laptop are i7's with 32Gb and 16Gb of ram respectively. Originally thought it might be a vram problem with the desktop, but seeing it on my laptop points to something going on with the program and/or my settings. Not aware of any heat problems.

    Laptop is 1920x1080 and desktop is 2560x1600. And both have dual monitors at that resolution--didn't specifically test, but didn't notice a difference between which of the dual monitors I used.

    I'm running Fractal Terrain version 3.0.12.

    I did notice it wasn't happening 100% of the time--on the laptop just now, regen'ing a new world about 1/3 of the time it would look OK, 1/3 of the time I'd get a black speckled effect and 1/3 of the time the dotted horizontal lines.

    --David
    David - when you create an FT world model / start a new world - always write down your "WORLD SEED NUMBER", and all of the settings that your making in the "Synthetic World" dialogue box including your highest and lowest altitudes. Also SAVE your world file (.ftw) frequently during the course of editing it - preferably to a desktop folder where you can easily and quickly find it. That way you can either re-load a previously saved .ftw file - or re-create your FT Model World with precisely the same parameters should your work get fudged beyond repair.

    #1, Check your computers - both the Desktop and Laptop - and see if possibly you might be running a third party application or program in BOTH computers that may be conflicting or screwing around with FT Pro / FT3.

    #2, Check your security apps (Antivirus and Anti-Malware) to see if they are properly updated. You may also run a security scan for infections.

    #3, Make sure that your hard drive has been properly defragmented.

    #4, Check and see if a non-essential / non-system critical 3rd party background application, process, or service might be running that could be interfering with Fractal Terrains on both computers. You can do this by hitting "Ctrl + Alt + Delete" on your keyboard very quickly and smoothly - which should call up your Windows "Task Manager" - from there you can observe everything that is currently running on your computer.

    If you are unsure about whether or not an application, process, or service should or should not be running - or if you are unsure if whether or not the specific application, process, or service is actually part of your Windows OS - and not a third party proprietary or self contained app - THEN DON'T MESS WITH IT - just leave it running.

    I suspect that you might have an app or background process that could be running that is conflicting with FT, or draining / weeding system resources from FT that you may have installed on BOTH computers.

    If you don't know your way around Windows - then don't mess with anything, but if you have purchased or downloaded an app that runs in the background (for example - runs an "update scheduler" or "update service" - or that simply idles until you open it - then - if it is NOT a part of WINDOWS - you might consider ending the task / disabling the background process associated with it through Task Manager). Do these things only if you are completely knowledgeable in Windows - and if you choose to switch a background app, process, or service off - THEN YOU ARE DOING SO COMPLETELY AT YOUR OWN RISK!!! - Again - if you are unsure / not confident about changing anything - then leave it alone...

    Also David - if you are listening to music (Oggs / Wavs / or MP3s) through a media player, watching videos on YouTube in a smaller window, or surfing the web while running FT Pro / FT3, then you might consider discontinuing your multi-tasking activities while working with Fractal Terrains to save on system resources, and to discourage any possible conflicts as well.

    All in all - make sure, as Mr. Slayton suggested - that you submit a bug report to Profantasy. Include such info as:

    #1, Version of Windows OS that you are using (example: Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows Power NT).

    #2, Model Number and brand name of Computer (example: COMPAQ PRESARIO Desktop Model NX03SRB1, Windows SURFACE Laptop / tablet combo, etc.).

    #3, Processor type and size in GHtz (example: i7, AMD ATHLON 4.0 GHtz, etc.).

    #3, Amount and type of RAM memory modules (chips) - (example: 2 Gig RAM / DDR2 type, 4 Gig RAM / DDR3 type, 12 Gig RAM / 32 pin SDRAMM DIMM, 6.0 Gig RAM / DDR3 @ 665 MHTz, etc.).

    #4, Size and Resolution of Monitor (example: Hewlett Packard HPW2072a / 1600x900@60 Htz).

    #5, Size and type of Hard Drive (example: 931 GB, 7200 RPM Western Digital SATA HDD).

    #6, Age of computer / how long have you owned it / when did the warrantee expire?.

    #7, Complete description of bug effects / type of program malfunction associated with said bug including when it occurs / causes / triggers.
  • Still tinkering while I figure the program out so no worries if I junk something up at this point. :)

    On my desktop right now...

    >>#1, Check your computers - Desktop and Laptop modules - and see if possibly you might be running a third party application or program in BOTH computers that may be conflicting or screwing around with FT Pro / FT3.

    There's a few common applications which I turned off without any apparent change. The only thing I didn't turn off is Stardock Fences which is a desktop organizer.

    >>#2, Check your security apps (Antivirus and Anti-Malware) to see if they are properly updated. You may also run a security scan for infections.

    Using Eset in both cases. Made sure it was ignoring the FT folder and then turned it off for testing. Not change.

    >>#3, Make sure that your hard drive has been properly defragmented.

    SSD's in both cases.

    >>#4, Check and see if a non-essential / non-system critical 3rd party background application, process, or service might be running that could be interfering with Fractal Terrains on both computers. You can do this by hitting "Ctrl + Alt + Delete" on your keyboard very quickly and smoothly - which should call up your Windows "Task Manager" - from there you can observe everything that is currently running on your computer.

    Turned of a bunch of stuff for testing without any change. Haven't tried safe-mode though.

    >> I suspect that you might have an app or background process that could be running that is conflicting with FT, or draining / weeding system resources from FT.

    Doesn't feel like it right now. (I've been in IT/programming since the early 80's so don't mind tinkering with this a little.)

    The desktop hasn't exhibited the speckling observed on the laptop, but the horizontal dotted lines is very consistent--almost always appear on the initial display of a world whether generated or calling up a saved one. What is also consistent is clicking Apply on the World Settings will almost always cause the dotted lines to disappear (other than one random world that refused to clean up.) Feels a little like something is slightly different between the initial generation/display of a world and a subsequent regen/repaint.

    --David
  • Just tried it in safe mode on the desktop which should eliminate a bunch of stuff including the Stardock Fences. (Both machines are Win 7 Ultimate 64-bit if it matters.)

    Horizontal dashed lines were still appearing. Applying the World Settings would eventually clear them up, but it would take 4 or 5 tries (whereas non-safemode only took a single Apply.)

    I may reinstall FT3 and patch later just for grins...

    --David
  • Posted By: dmjungStill tinkering while I figure the program out so no worries if I junk something up at this point. :)

    On my desktop right now...

    >>#1, Check your computers - Desktop and Laptop modules - and see if possibly you might be running a third party application or program in BOTH computers that may be conflicting or screwing around with FT Pro / FT3.

    There's a few common applications which I turned off without any apparent change. The only thing I didn't turn off is Stardock Fences which is a desktop organizer.

    >>#2, Check your security apps (Antivirus and Anti-Malware) to see if they are properly updated. You may also run a security scan for infections.

    Using Eset in both cases. Made sure it was ignoring the FT folder and then turned it off for testing. Not change.

    >>#3, Make sure that your hard drive has been properly defragmented.

    SSD's in both cases.

    >>#4, Check and see if a non-essential / non-system critical 3rd party background application, process, or service might be running that could be interfering with Fractal Terrains on both computers. You can do this by hitting "Ctrl + Alt + Delete" on your keyboard very quickly and smoothly - which should call up your Windows "Task Manager" - from there you can observe everything that is currently running on your computer.

    Turned of a bunch of stuff for testing without any change. Haven't tried safe-mode though.

    >> I suspect that you might have an app or background process that could be running that is conflicting with FT, or draining / weeding system resources from FT.

    Doesn't feel like it right now. (I've been in IT/programming since the early 80's so don't mind tinkering with this a little.)

    The desktop hasn't exhibited the speckling observed on the laptop, but the horizontal dotted lines is very consistent--almost always appear on the initial display of a world whether generated or calling up a saved one. What is also consistent is clicking Apply on the World Settings will almost always cause the dotted lines to disappear (other than one random world that refused to clean up.) Feels a little like something is slightly different between the initial generation/display of a world and a subsequent regen/repaint.

    --David
    Then it has to be a glitch. I'm getting the impression that I'm missing something here - like something is right in front of my nose on this and I'm still not able to figure it out. I've just got a gut suspicion that this is fixable.
  • edited June 2014
    Posted By: dmjungJust tried it in safe mode on the desktop which should eliminate a bunch of stuff including the Stardock Fences. (Both machines are Win 7 Ultimate 64-bit if it matters.)

    Horizontal dashed lines were still appearing. Applying the World Settings would eventually clear them up, but it would take 4 or 5 tries (whereas non-safemode only took a single Apply.)

    I may reinstall FT3 and patch later just for grins...

    --David
    Yep - try a complete reinstall and patch on BOTH machines.

    Joe Slayton might chime in later if he has any additional footnotes or ideas - since we're getting more trial and error info going on here.
  • edited June 2014
    Here's a clue. Will check the laptop tomorrow, but on my desktop I have the Maximum Rendering Threads set at the max of 11. If I switch it back to Default, then the dotted lines seem to go away (and the window paints slower naturally.) Switch it back to 11, get the dotted lines.

    --David
  • edited June 2014
    Posted By: dmjungHere's a clue. Will check the laptop tomorrow, but on my desktop I have the Maximum Rendering Threads set at the max of 11. If I switch it back to Default, then the dotted lines seem to go away (and the window paints slower naturally.) Switch it back to 11, get the dotted lines.

    --David
    HMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......Very interesting...

    Actually I've never used any thread settings in the preferences higher than default. The only other setting on threading that I was aware of was the "1" option under the "default" option. Never really saw any need at all to mess with it anyway - let alone to jack it up to a higher setting. Hmmm.

    Maybe it's something going on with your specific APU / GPU / Chip set? I don't know (never had an i7 before) - but if keeping it (FT3) set to default threading solves the issue - then I would think that that's your best, more immediate probable solution. You could even try selecting a higher thread setting - but not maxxing it all the way up to 11?

    I personally have never had any need to change that specific setting at all. Below I have also given my CPU specs. Apparantly FT3 is telling me that other than default - the maximum number of rendering threads that I can use is "1". My APU is a dual core with "2" threads. My CPU is not supported for hyperthreading.
  • Go to my laptop this morning...does appear to be something with the FT3 rendering threading.

    My laptop is an i7-2760QM with 4 cores and 8 threads. The preferences will allow me to set it up to 7 threads. At default setting, initial painting looks good (other than the speckling which I haven't worked yet), if I choose 1 thru 7 threads, then I get the horizontal dotted lines on the initial display of the world.

    The desktop is an i7-3930K with 6 cores and 12 threads--presumably why it allows setting up to 11 threads.

    I didn't see any documentation on what specifically the rendering threading does--although I'm familiar with unix and window threading models and kind of guessed. :)

    The laptop doesn't appear to show as much of a performance boost with the max threads, but its display resolution is substantially lower than the desktop.

    I HAVE noticed in both cases, that the display clears in anticipation of painting the new/refreshed world and I THINK I see what will be the dotted lines or speckling as lighter marks on the dark blue display. After painting, the light dotted lines / speckling appear as black, I THINK.

    I don't know the architecture of the program, so -maybe- the memory to be used for display isn't completely/properly initialized on the initial world gen/display when additional threading is used, but is properly cleared for a subsequent regen/repaint of the same world? Just a WAG.

    --David
  • I should mention that the dotted lines don't really weird me out all that much since subsequent refreshes removed them, but it does indicate a potential issue somewhere. If a fix isn't possible, I'd prefer to allow the higher threads for performance reasons with a warning that the initial gen/display may have artifacts.

    --David
  • jslaytonjslayton Moderator, ProFantasy Mapmaker
    Again, this is a known bug that should be fixed in the latest update.

    Yes, it is related to the number of threads. The long-winded technical detail is that FT performs its onscreen computation using a dithered pattern to fill in the display, meaning that FT computes non-adjacent pixels as it goes (that accounts for the speckled appearance as it displays). This pattern allows for getting a feel for the larger display very quickly and then filling in the rest of the display as things go along, This activity was useful for the early P4 systems that could take many seconds to render the display; it may be neutral or even a slight performance detriment on modern systems. FT further calculates the display in two passes: one for the basic data and one for lighting. In order to speed up all of these computations, the screen elements are broken into work groups and assigned to as many rendering threads as are specified in the preferences. What is going wrong is that some work groups can get assigned to shading before computation is fully complete or won't have finished shading before new computation starts (basically, it's a bad thread fence implementation). This sync issue will happen semi-randomly, which is why the speckled lines aren't always in the same place.

    The number of threads used to render work groups is specified in the preferences. The number of threads is one less than the number of threads that Windows states are available for the machine. If your machine has a maximum of two threads, you can never have more than one thread active for rendering; a single thread can't get out of sync with itself, meaning that the problem won't appear. The export computation code is single-threaded, meaning that the visual artifacts won't appear in exports.
  • edited June 2014
    Posted By: jslaytonAgain, this is a known bug that should be fixed in the latest update.

    Yes, it is related to the number of threads. The long-winded technical detail is that FT performs its onscreen computation using a dithered pattern to fill in the display, meaning that FT computes non-adjacent pixels as it goes (that accounts for the speckled appearance as it displays). This pattern allows for getting a feel for the larger display very quickly and then filling in the rest of the display as things go along, This activity was useful for the early P4 systems that could take many seconds to render the display; it may be neutral or even a slight performance detriment on modern systems. FT further calculates the display in two passes: one for the basic data and one for lighting. In order to speed up all of these computations, the screen elements are broken into work groups and assigned to as many rendering threads as are specified in the preferences. What is going wrong is that some work groups can get assigned to shading before computation is fully complete or won't have finished shading before new computation starts (basically, it's a bad thread fence implementation). This sync issue will happen semi-randomly, which is why the speckled lines aren't always in the same place.

    The number of threads used to render work groups is specified in the preferences. Thenumber of threads is one less than the number of threads that Windows states are available for the machine. If your machine has a maximum of two threads, you can never have more than one thread active for rendering; a single thread can't get out of sync with itself, meaning that the problem won't appear. The export computation code is single-threaded, meaning that the visual artifacts won't appear in exports.
    BINGO - WE HAVE OUR ANSWER! Lol.

    Honestly I never had a reason to screw around with the thread settings. My computer compared to dmjung's rigs is like comparing a "Go-Cart" to an Audi Rs7, so naturally "available threads for rendering" is a moot issue as far as I'm concerned for my own machine really, lol.

    Somebody should probably make this forum thread a sticky - since the advent of multicore machines will undoubtably bring this issue again to the fore front for a lot of 64 bit users out there who need to be reminded to patch their older copies of FT PRO / FT3.

    GO TO YOUR REGISTRATION PAGES - DOWNLOAD THE LATEST FT PRO / FT3 UPDATE - AND PATCH'EM PEOPLE!!!! Lol ;)

    Personally - my advise to users out there would be to just leave the default preference settings alone - as I really don't see any point to changing them (although other folks might - for whatever reasons besides just getting a faster render time). I have no real personal life - so I can afford to sit around sipping coffee all day while I wait for my map to render out - unlike those other folks that have jobs, and girlfriends, and actual - real life responsibilities, and all of that other weird complicated junk, lol.
  • edited June 2014
    Although my install showed I was running the latest 3.0.12 version I went ahead and did a clean reinstall on the laptop. The strong dotted lines are not appearing at present, but I am still seeing a number of artifacts. Samples are attached.

    Let me know if there's anything you want me to do/try.
  • Kind of nice while it lasted. Went back into FT3 and I'm back to seeing the strong dotted lines on the initial display/gen of a world.

    Curious--it is behaving a little different though. As I zoom in, some of the dotted lines appear to be at a "fixed" position rather than moving/zooming with the world. And yes, my monitor is clean. :)

    I'll see what happens with my desktop after a clean reinstall.

    --David
  • Was going through generating worlds looking for something suitable for my story and came across an artifact effect I hadn't seen before.
  • jslaytonjslayton Moderator, ProFantasy Mapmaker
    edited June 2014
    All of those problems are manifestations of the same bug described above. The exact screen size and shape has a large bearing on the noise pattern you see. But a set of spaced bad points are all the same threading bug rearing its perky little crest out of the computational sea again.
  • Email sent. Didn't have time to tinker with it much last night since I needed to actually use it for what I bought it for. :) At least I have three candidates for the story world now.

    I ended up with about three sets of duplicate worlds among my 20+ initial sets although I'm pretty sure I was always saving a different world. Will see if I can duplicate what happened or if I was distracted...probably the latter.

    --David
Sign In or Register to comment.