TERRAFORMER 1.0 "Pre-Production", NEED INPUT PLEASE!

Terraformer_Author

Hi guys...
I have been doing some stuff for the next phase of the Terraformer experiment (T1.0) here and there - off and on - and I'de like some ideas from you guys - and even more importantly - I want to hear the gripes and complaints that you might have about the current version (Terraformer 0.50). I am only beginning to work on the next version on a "here and there" basis, so don't expect T1.0 to be ready anytime soon - it's going to take quite a while, especially considering some of the new FT3 features that I might try to address, lol. I am also toying around with the idea of re-ordering the existing .lgt files - as not to be so jumbled and mixed up flavor wise, among other things.

Doing image clmates for oceans might turn out to be pretty interesting...

Basically I'de just like some input and feedback - so that I can get a rough idea about a blueprint on this thing. I am VERY interested in notes on CC3 integration and different methods for doing that, as I am wanting to toss around the idea of doing some tutorials on FT3 to CC3 workflow and integration techniques. Also - I am thinking about converting a lot of the current material from jpeg to PNG, although I am worried about file size considerations. I am also thinking about throwing in a PDF book on world modelling as a bonus reference work, along with the standard manual - something containing info, formulas, real world data to game map adaptation, etc.(recall my thread on hex map grids expressing real world scales for space mapping?). Just some random brain farts, lol. Let me know what's stewing around in your noggins.

regards - B.R.

JimP

Not sure how it would affect cloud overlay quality, but for my web site pngs I reduce the number of colors from 250 to 200 in Irfanview. It can make a large file size reduction, but not everytime.

Thats Image menu -> Reduce Color Depth in Irfanview.

Monsen

That color reduction might be ok for images to display on a website, but you shouldn't do that for the files used in a map. It should be as good as possible. The size reduction is far less useful in such a package anyway. The package is basically downloaded once for each user, and even if it is big, the user expects that. Web site images on the other hand are very useful to get as small as possible, to keep load times low (Nobody likes to wait too long on a page load).
An eventual reduction is much better to use on an image export on a finished world before sharing instead.

Terraformer_Author

Well I do need to change to PNG because #1, it's "nearly lossless", #2, it's replacing jpegs big time everywhere, and #3, it has WAYYY better image qaulity than jpegs, and #4 - it has much better portability - slightly larger file size - but way better image qaulity retention / continuity per save / resave / move.

Dogtag

It also supports alpha layers (transparency)!

veilheim

Okay, so I'm brand new to FT and Terraformer (and, oh by the way, I think it's just lovely!!).

That said.... my big complaint is the documentation. It was....uhm.... accurate and able to get me where I needed to go... but way (way... way....omg...way) too verbose. I have to thank you for putting such an amazing tool together, though, so thank you. Hope you'll take this in the manner it's intended -- as a means to improve what you've got.

Terraformer_Author

Hi Veilheim,
No - I don't take it the wrong way - as a matter of fact - I find it very refreshing that someone can be very clear and specific about observations and constructive criticism.
Yes - you are correct in that my stuff can be very wordy at times. Right now I am preparing materials and product packages for the BRYCE program by DAZ, among other projects I'm hitting here and there - and I've been writing the guides / manuals for those products - and because of this habit - I have sensitive fingertips from pounding my keyboard, lol.

When I write anything - I try to make even something as mundane as an instructions booklet - at least marginally entertaining. I like to write - and anybody who knows me around here since I started this back in 2006 will tell you that - "YES, BILL'S A MAJOR LEAGUE CHATTER BOX!" Lol. As a matter of fact I drive my mother nuts sometimes because often when I get into discussions with her about everything from religeon and politics - to which brand name trash bag is a better buy - I tend to embellish my position way beyond making the point.

The reasons for this compulsion are two fold - number one - there is always more going on inside the messy bowl of scrambled eggs between my ears that one can loosely refer to as a mind - than can be adequately covered by a simple, understated "Uh huh - sure",lol. Secondly - I am Obsessive Compulsive about "CLARITY". I am actually afraid that someone will not grasp the gestault of what I'm talking about - and that a concept will zip past their ears (or in this case - their eyes). These are the natural psychological after effects of being from a large family - where you have to scream to get somebody to pass you the mashed potatoes, lol. Folks who hail from big clans will know exactly where I'm coming from on this. It's the result of gradual circumstantial conditioning, see "PAVLOV'S DOG" on Google search - lol

I will certainly TRY to simplify things a lot more the next time around, but it's going to be really, really tough, lol

JimP

I am looking forward to your materials on using Bryce.

And I thought I was chatty, then you showed up. :-)

Terraformer_Author

Thanks Jim, keep watching my Share CG gallery (My handle over there is "Kopernicus", lol). One of several things I am working on (or have been - it's a finished package but I'm holding off until my Tire materials and Metal materials packages are done)>

Jay_NOLA

Nice cna't wait to see the car colors.

For Terraformer 1.0 I''d like to see a walkthrough on using the creaed world in Bryce or some other 3D program and maybe some general tips on getting the world ight coreectly in the 3D app so it looks good.

The bonus PDF book you mentioned for the next Terraformer sounds like a great idea. Having info on how to set up various created worlds so they'll come out right if one was going to make a solar system and need to generate all the planets. Recomendations for FT settings based on stellar data could go in too.

I'll be at the New Orleans Comic Con tommrow most likely and the guys from DAZ will be at it if you have any good FT worlds into Bryce images you want me to show them post them or any comments to let them know just post them also. I mentioned last year at the con about how I got Bryce and into 3D art because of Terraformer for FT.

JimP

Can't make it down to Nawlins. Maybe they could make it to CoastCon someday, over in Biloxi.

Terraformer_Author

Jay and Jim - you can show my stuff from the Terraformer Package to anybody that you want to bro - no prob. Thank you for thinkin about it anyway.
We're having a low pressure system go through my area and I'm getting a migraine that could choke a horse right now, lol.
took some asprins earlier and I'm hoping that they'll take within the next couple hours, lol.

As far as T1.0 - yeah, I'm trying to think about different approaches to expanding it's usefulness somehow when I start working on it. Also want to take some time to explore and address the newer features on FT3. A Bryce tutorial or two seems like a really nice idea. I have a notebook chocked full of math and handy formulas that I have collected over the years when I have engaged in mental aerobics from time to time (time wasters, lol) - they have direct baring on world modelling as they deal mostly with astronomy and various other terrestrially oriented scientific diciplines like geology, meteorology, Keplar stuff, whatever. I had a fascination with pondering theoretical Earth like planets a while back. Gotta find something useful to do with it - otherwise it's just getting dusty sitting on a shelf.

Highland_Piper

I've been away from mapping for some time but just got around to placing Terraformer 0.50 into my system. I'm really enjoying it. I'm trying to make a large number of worlds at the moment and it would be nice to be able to make some Gas Giants would be nice.

Using Astro Synthesis 3, Fractal Terrains 3, Terraformer, CC3 has made my hobby so much easier!!

Terraformer_Author

Thanks Highland.

Sorry I haven't been more active on the forums but I've been doing some 3D modelling, learning U.V. mapping techniques, and building materials for BRYCE. I will probably be starting on T1.0 this summer if I can get it together and get things rolling right.

Gas giants are a different concept than mappable terrestrial worlds, because they have features that aren't really set - but changes and is morphic - so they can't really be mapped in the traditional sense where you have map locations and features that are reliable over time and that do not shift or change. Even "cloud cities" that would occupy the uppermost atmospheric layers of a gas giant's atmospheres would move with the band divisions of the atmospheres, so that their positions would not be set or rigid enough to constitute a "permanent" map location or feature.

I will poke around here and there to find out if I can track down pointers on how to approach doing good gas giant texture maps - but I think that the best use of a gas giant personally is the same as for a sun or series of suns - and that is as an orbital focal point for perhaps a thoroughly mappable Earth like moon or moons.

Gas giants DO have compressed cores made of stone, iron, and sometimes ice for "cold" gas giants like Neptune, and Uranus. Jupiter's core probably does not contain ice because the pressure of it's atmospheres produces appreciable heat. It's core might only be as large as our moon - but made of incredibly massive matter.

Jupiter is just a little too cool to be considered a lower end brown dwarf star (T type star) since it never achieved quite enough mass at it's core to begin even a rudimentary solar fusion process - but it does emit a limited measure of radial thermal energy (warmth) to it's moons. The core of any gas giant would be too massive and gravitationally crushing to be inhabitable. I weigh in at around 219 lbs., But if I were standing on the solid core of Jupiter, neglecting the fact that the Jovian atmosphere would crush me into being meat spread - I would have a body wieght of about 12 times of what it is on Earth - or roughly 2,628 pounds - about the same weight as a large pickup truck carrieing a couple of engine blocks for cargo. I would be crushed by my own weight, as my head alone would weigh well over 300 pounds, which would probably snap my spine - or more accurately - crush my cervical vertibrae and collapse my skull into my chest cavity - if I were standing up - which would actually be impossible on Jupiter anyway (yuck).

Gas giants are less gravitationally attractive the farther out that you go. The planet Bespin in Star Wars was probably an extremely low density gas giant with a core that would be (or would HAVE to be) at best only twice as massive as the Earth's - otherwise the cloud city would have been yanked down and torn to pieces by a Jupiter like core. I assume this because the energy requirements and work load needed to keep it aloft would have been astronomical - not counting simply the naturally anticipated structural failure it would succumb to - due to it being crushed like an aluminum cola can under a forklift wheel by the combined tour de'force of the weight of the atmospheres and the gravitational pull itself...

You have to pull off enough mental acrobatics to get a nose bleed to even begin to attempt to reconcile / explain / resolve all of the problems inherent in the Bespin model of a "habitable" gas giant. Finding a freakish - pecular - almost magical gas planet like that would probably be 10 to the 10th to the 10th to the 10th power more rare than finding a "run of the mill" Earth like planet out there like our own. Looking for one is like hunting Unicorns in Arizona, lol. It's best to refer to the "Bespin Model" as "Lucas's Folly", lol.

Ironically - since we know that there are a LOT of "Warm Jupiters" out there that orbit relatively close to their host stars - you might have a much better chance of finding a world nearly identical to our own orbiting a gas giant as a moon - than orbiting a star alone as a planet! Earth like moons may actually be a lot more common than Earth like planets. The tidal pull necessary to maintain a stable life supporting environment would be more commonly found in that type of arrangement than hoping for an Earth like PLANET that has just the right sized moon or moons to do the trick anyway. Complex life on Earth (according to the "experts") - exists in part due to the gravitational influences of our moon over time, establishing the framework for the "rhythms" and cycles of life on Earth. Hoping for the perfect balance of just the right sized moon or moons WITH just the right type of planet, that's just the right size, and in just the right place in the solar system - is betting on a HUGELY precarious trifecta. Statistically it would be far less of a leap to hope for living moons orbiting "Warm Jupiters" in the Goldilocks zones of stars out there, then hoping for Earth like PLANETS with just the perfect sized moon or moons.

I would rank probabilities with 1 being the greatest - and 5 being the least probable situation for the following list:

#1 - The existance of Earth like moons around warm gas giants (greatest chance).

#2 - The existance of Earth like planets with lifeless moons (very conditional occurance - dependendant upon one of two highly specialized events - planetary collision or asteroidal capture).

#3 - The existance of Earth like planets without moons (highly conditional occurance - radical obliquity ranges and processive variations - needs a dependant variable for stabilized rotation).

#4 - The existance of Earth like planets with slightly smaller Earth like moons (unlikely - but possible - moon would have to be Mars sized with a slim range of +/- tolerance - at a Lunar based scaled distance).

#5 - The existance of twin Earth like planetary bodies nearly eqaul in size in binary orbit around each other (least chance - highly improbable but non zero possibility of occurance).

JimP

There could still be a series of 'cloud banks with bands of different colors' for making gas giants. Then some symbols for orbiting statons...

Would make a good outpost or research station.

jslayton

In FT, the Fractal Function tab on the world settings will let you get something that looks vaguely like a gas giant. Turn off "Automatically Compute Parms" and set Radius Y to about 40 times the X and Z value. See below for an example. The altitude is what's controlling the color.

Terraformer_Author

Well yeah Jim - an orbital space station around a gas giant would be very reasonable.

I remember when I first saw The Empire Strikes Back, and the reaction that I had to the whole Bespin thing. Although they never clearly said that Bespin was a gas giant planet - it was very much implied circumstantially. I thought to myself "Yeah - right - suurrreeee..." Everybodie's breathing without assistance so that automatically tells you 60% nitrogen and at least 17% oxygen.
I won't even go there as to why that in itself is a major "oopsy". I was also shocked to see that people were not spread out on the floor like an asphalt roller had just given them a nice shoulder massage, lol.

@jslayton - SWEETNESS DUDE!!!! That just simply rocks!

Gold

I have Terraformer 0.50 with Fractal Terrains 3. It is a tremendous addition.

Terraformer 1.0 sounds wonderful. Keep going please!

Reorganized .lgt filenames, FT3 to CC3 workflow and integration techniques, both sound good. Would read for those 2 upgrades alone.

More ideas, my wishlist, that might fit with Terraformer, some of these may be a stretch:
Techniques for adding canyons and cliffs...
How to use the Incise, or maybe some kind of script to incise and erode the world many times?
techniques for making lakes....
techniques for adding ocean ridges and underwater trenches...
techniques for making beaches in only some coastlines of the world....
techniques for finding, marking, or approxmiating effects of fault-lines, plates, plate tectonics...
volcano finding...
Ways of making ice caps...
How to put a hex grid on your world, or on a small part of your world
Tips for exporting to Google Earth and KMZ files.

Thanks for all you have already done, shared and published so generously, BR. Terraformer really has proven to be a huge help and added value in my use of Fractal Terrains software.

billcoke

Is there a way to display cities, towns, roads on the world built by FT3? Or to import a FT3 map that was exported to CC3, updated with cities, towns and roads back into FT3?

I particularly like exporting the FT3 map to Google Earth and viewing it there, but without cities (et. all) it loses something.

Simon Rogers

Terraformer is an excellent resource, and any Fractal Terrains customer can dewnload it from their registered users' page. Thanks Bill for maintaining this!