Grid weirdness, and a couple other questions...

Ciel

A weird issue has popped up in Cosmographer 3, which I just picked up. This isn't a Cos issue, but a CC3 issue, since I've encountered it once before (didn't make a post then), but it just cropped up again.

I created a new ship deckplan map, which was 60 x 60 (meters that is). Once it was created, I added a square grid, and ended up with this:

Note the grid going outside the map background, and also, what the heck happened to the numbers?

For reference, these are the settings that were used:


Now, I was about to type "I didn't change anything, so they are just the default settings." BUT... I'm not sure they are. I didn't change anything when I made THIS GRID, tonight, in Cos 3, but I first created other grids in CC3 some time ago, and I have no idea if I changed from the default settings then (or if any changes would have held over when I used Cos for the first time, vs. the settings reverting to default).

Any way to fix this? And for that matter, is there any way to change the properties of an already-created grid in general? I know you can change the color, put it on different sheets/layers, etc. by using Change Properties and treating it like any other object, but is there any way to make a change that would chop off that whole top row, making it align with the map background, or altering the numbers used, or etc... basically, a way to change the properties of the grid that are unique to a grid.

And speaking of Cos 3, while I'm here, some questions. So, several of the styles are described as "Traveller." Now, I know nothing about Traveller myself, but I understand that Cos 3 can be used for Traveller stuff, and that there is an importer for Traveller data, etc. But my question is, are the visual styles used IN Cos 3 taken FROM Traveller?

i.e. if I made a galaxy map for my own setting, using "Cosmographer Galactic Traveller", would someone who DOES know Traveller go "Oh, that looks like Traveller", based purely on the visual style?

Another question: the deck menu in the lower-right of the map. Is there any other way to navigate between decks aside from this menu, and if so, is there then anyway to hide/delete the menu? If you had a ship that was just 8 or 10 decks (which really isn't unreasonably huge for many sci-fi subgenres), that menu would really begin to encroach on your mapping space...

And finally, another question that is really a CC3 question, not a Cos 3 specific question, but I've never tried to do this till now: can you just add a map border at any time? I noticed some of the pre-defined templates have some neat borders; can I find these somewhere and add them to a map created with the "Decide Settings Myself" method?

Monsen

Basically, you can't change the "grid properties" of a placed grid. Once placed, it becomes a series of unrelated (though grouped) entities.

Imageshack refuses me to zoom in to the image, so I cannot see the problems with the numbering, but to solve the problem with the grid cells going outside the map are, you should place the grid points manually. Just click "select Points" instead of apply when placing the grid, then type 0,0 for the first corner to get that placed presicely at the origin, and use the mouse to place the top right corner. You should see a preview of the grid before you click, ensuring that you get proper placement.

I've never seen traveller myself, so I can't answer that part...

The Decks menu are just hyperlinks to the map file for each deck, as each deck has it's own drawing. You can manually open the files instead of using the deck nav menu, or you can implement some other system using hotspots. You can also simply move it a bit to the right, outside the main drawing area and map border, where you have all the place in the world. If you move it, make sure you move the hyperlinks as well.


For the map border, yes. You can add a map border at any time. CC3 doesn't come with a "map border" gallery or tool though, so you need to draw it yourself, or copy it from another map. For the latter, you must obviously scale it appropriately as well.

Ciel

Thanks Monsen! Man, it sometimes seems like there's no end to the amount of stuff I still don't know about this program (referring to CC3 in general, not Cos specifically)... O_o Still, I feel a bit silly, since I just didn't notice I could set the grid points manually, and trying to move the deck menu as I would move any other objects didn't even occur to me for some reason... Those will both make my life a lot easier, though


So, as far as making a map border... what would you use for that? The "line" command on the right hand toolbar? Haven't used those commands as much... I'd guess that you'd draw a line around the map, adjusting Line Width and color to get a good border and using grid snaps to make sure it is lined up correctly. Am I in the ballpark? Also, how would you produce an effect like the border that comes with the "Cosmographer Deckplan Bitmap 250' x 200'" pre-defined template? If you open that one up, you'll see what I mean... there's this violet-colored border around the map, which has rounded corners rather than sharp corners.

Ralf

Creating a rounded corner map like that is a little more involved. The easiest way is simply to copy the border over to your own map:

- Open both drawings simultaneously (CC3 can run multiple instances).
- Use Ctrl-C on the map with the border and select only the border itself.
- In your own map, use Ctrl-V to paste the border in. You might need to scale it to match your map's size. If the dimensions in your map are different, you can use the STRETCH command to match the new border to your map.

Ciel

So copying might be the best method. That makes sense, since scaling isn't too hard, really. Thanks Ralf.

Since I already have this thread open, I'll ask this here. Cosmo 3 has now thrown a strange problem at me, one that I experienced from time to time in vanilla CC3 (and made a thread about... never could figure out what caused it or how exactly to stop it). Editing polys that are already on the map.

In this particular case, it's bulkheads. I have one bulkhead (with closure set to "Closed") going around my whole deckplan area. I also have a pair of smaller bulkheads within the deckplan area walling off the bridge (with closure set to "Open", since I wanted these to be walls running from one point to another and then stopping, instead of a closed "box"). I now want to extend those inner, "Open" bulkheads. When I go into the Bulkhead drawing tool, click the same type of bulkhead used to create the smaller ones, then hit "E" to get into edit mode; "Pick start node" it tells me. There is NO WAY to get it to actually pick a node that is IN those smaller, open bulkheads. Clicking the mouse for "Pick start node" ALWAYS causes it to jump into the larger, closed bulkhead surrounding the deckplan area. If I click in the top half of the map, it goes to the top section of bulkhead, and into the bottom section for the bottom of the map, but always into that closed, surrounding bulkhead. I simply cannot get it to select the smaller, open bulkheads when I try to pick the "start node."

As I said, the cause of this was never nailed down in that other thread, nor was a solution. In that case, with CC3, it was happening in a large world map I had been working on for QUITE some time already, with a number of edits and cuts and changes and etc. having already been done to it. The only thing I could think of was that somewhere along the line, some property of some polygon or something was causing this. Not very satisfactory, and still no solution to prevent it from happening again, but eh.

In this case though, that cannot be it. There are very few polys on this starship map, and there haven't been scores of edits and changes done to it because unlike my world map that I've been working on for like two years or something, this is NEW. This map has only existed for maybe 45 minutes.

Does ANYONE have any idea what causes this, or how to fix it? Am I just missing something, or is editing a bulkhead just... not advisable? Having this problem crop up yet again, only this time with a fresh (and, one would think, problem-free) map, is pretty frustrating...

Ciel

That Edit madness I described above is irritating, but seems to be hard to figure out. Hopefully that might change in the future, but then, I seem to be the only one who has encountered this problem that I can tell... Anyway!

Two more things, which are frankly more pressing. One is a pure bug (note: I didn't see anything like a bug report section elsewhere on the site, so I will report this here; let me know if there is a better way): trying to create a new grid causes the program to crash. Not an overlay, but the grid you can set by right clicking on "grid" or "snap" in the lower-right toolbar. Clicking on "New" once that right-click menu is open causes CC3 to completely fall down a flight of stairs when I try to exit back out of said menu. This has happened consistently, every time I do this. I CAN get by with just repeatedly modifying existing grids, so it's not the end of the world, but it's obviously a problem that I figured should be reported. Has anyone else experienced this?

The other is another question. I may be missing something really obvious, but how can I copy all of my sheets from one "deck" to another, when working with a starship deckplan? Since the different decks are actually different FCW files, the sheets obviously don't carry over automatically. So, let's say you are working on deck 1, and you add a bunch of new sheets and change effects and add effects and etc etc... how would you avoid making all those changes manually for each deck?

Monsen

hmm.. I did some testing, and crating a grid works mostly fine, except for on a few templates, where CC3 would always crash (One of these being the Cosmographer Deckplan Bitmap) template. Might be something strange with this one.

Ralf

You can save your effect settings from the Sheets & Effects catalog. Do that, open the other decks and set the new settings in their sheet dialog. If new sheets are present, CC3 will ask you whether to add the new sheets to the drawing. You might still need to put them in the correct order.

The grid crashing is an unfortunate bug in a few templates, yes. It can be worked around by editing an existing grid, or fixed by deleting all grids in the drawing, then creating new ones.

Monsen

Thanks for your corrections Ralf. I should have remembered that feature

Ciel

Bah, how did I miss that! Saving the Sheets and Effects, I mean. Man, some of this stuff I really should have noticed or remembered on my own... I've been away from this program for too long. =p

Anyway, thanks. As for the crashing grid, I hadn't tried it outside of the starship deckplan, so I didn't realize it was limited to certain templates. Still, at least I can get around it in a couple of ways.

Do either of you (Ralf and Monsen that is) have any clue what the deal is with what I call Edit Madness? I described the problem in much greater detail in this thread here:
http://forum.profantasy.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=2264
if that helps at all. Still, what I mentioned in this thread, in my third post, is important, since in this case it started happening again with a brand-new map, rather than one that already had lots of work and changes logged on it. Neither of you happened to make any comments in that older thread, and since you're both among the more active and knowledgeable posters around here, I was curious to see if either of you had any thoughts on it. It's quite a strange problem.

Thanks again for all the help! I think I'm kinda getting the hang of this starship mapping business...

Ralf

Nope, sorry, I haven't seen that behaviour myself. Please send me a map where this happens offline, so I can check whether I can replicate it.

Ciel

Well, now I can't get it to happen myself, lol

It does sometimes seem like something triggers it, since there have been times when I've been able to solve the problem by restarting the program or loading an earlier saved version of the map. Thing is, I dunno what the trigger might BE.

And while I can't get that problem to happen now, it seems I can't edit bulkheads at all. Selecting the bulkhead drawing tools, hitting E, then clicking the mouse to pick a start node just reverts back to the first step (the drawing tool is selected and the "Path: First Point (E - Edit)" dialog is up). I can still edit deckplan/floor, but not bulkheads. I really think the Edit function just hates me, I've always had problems with it. O_o I feel like I don't really get it, like I must be doing something wrong or not understanding what the limitations are as far as just exactly where you can - and can't - click when it asks you to "Pick Start Node" in Edit mode. Any tips on that, in a general sense?

And another question, unrelated. What's the best way to use Stair symbols? I had a though that in one room on the top deck of this little ship, there'd be a stairway down to the next deck against one wall. So I put some stairs on the map using the "Metal Steps" symbols... but they are just kinda there. Like this:


You can see them along the bottom bulkhead in that image. Is there anyway to indicate they are a stairway down, any way to put an effect on them so that the right side would fade into shadow or something (indicating the stairs going down in that direction), etc... anything along those lines, to basically make it look less like there are some stairs sitting on the floor, haha.

Ciel

STILL can't get that edit madness to happen again! It's like my radio stopped working, so I called someone to repair it, and as soon as he arrived, it started working fine again. XD

I also still can't edit bulkheads in general, at all.; as I said in the post above, clicking "E" to enter edit mode, then trying to click somewhere to "pick start node", just reverts back to the previous step. Does anyone have any thoughts on that, or on the stairs thing I mentioned in my last post?

And here is another question: about the bitmap style sector maps. Ok, so let's say you want to make something that looks more or less like this:

http://www.profantasy.com/library/COS3_SpinwardMarches.pdf

Note, not EXACTLY like that, but in this general style, but without using a pre-defined template. My question is how the heck do you get the hex grid to behave? More to the point: in that example, it lines up with the box containing the map VERY well. On the left and right, it basically ends perfectly, and on the top and bottom, the "overage" of the grid (i.e. hexes that aren't whole) look like they are perfect halves. Every whole hex is numbered.

Just for experimentation's sake, I created a map, and created a large box within it, similar to the one in that example. When I tried to put a hex grid over it, either it would hang off over the edges of the box (if snaps are on when selecting points for the grid, this seems to happen a lot), or it would be cut off in a weird way on one or more sides, i.e. instead of having nice halves at the edge, it would be like a third of a hex, then the edge of the box and the grid stops (this would happen often with the snaps OFF, to solve the other problem)... and whether snaps are on OR off, I invariably get several (whole) hexes near the bottom that are not numbered/labeled.

This may not be a "glitch" or error, I may just be missing something, but what? Are there certain dimensions that just do and don't work with a hex grid (i.e., 500 x 500 units, the hex grid will work fine, but 350 x 350, it just won't look right)? Though the lack of numbers/labels in a handful of hexes is pretty weird...

AND, the snaps just... shut off. Right now, while I was typing this, I have the program open, and snaps are gone. Doesn't matter if the button is pressed or not, doesn't matter what edits I make to the grid/snap settings, there are no snaps. ONLY on the experimental map I just made a few minutes ago. Snaps work fine on other maps when I load them, but on this map, they are gone and apparently are not coming back.

Also I can confirm that "Cosmographer Sector Bitmap" is definitely one of the templates upon which trying to create a new grid system causes the program to crash.

Jesus. I like this program, I'd like to use it, but sometimes I feel like I have nothing but problems, and why is it SO glitchy? O_o

Ralf

You do need a certain x:y ratio for hex grids to work fine. Basically a hex's ration is 1:1.1547, and you map needs to take these into account. Decide how many hex rows and columns you want, how wide your hex grid is supposed to be in pixel, then calculate your map size from that. Example:

You want a map with 30 hex rows and and 20 columns (vertical hex orientation), with 50 units as the distance between mid points. That'll make your map 30 * 50 * 1.1547 = 1732 units high and 20 * 50 = 1000 units wide. If you create a map with these dimensions, the hex grid will fit fine.

As for the snap, are you ware that the cursor snap can be turned on and off? If it's "on" you'll see the mouse cursor snapp form point to point, but not if it's "off". This does NOT affect the snapping of the actual points you put on the map. Right-click the SNAP button to turn this on and off.