Is there a discord? Also struggling with this awful controls, especially when it comes to floors

My discord is civil#8432; I'm struggling hard.

How can I place an object in a specific place? I want to have an object on the top floor and line up with the lower floor.

Whose idea was it to place the Change Floor as an actual part of the map instead of a tool? How are you meant to use it when it doesn't even save your position on each floor?

Most important of all, why use this over photoshop?

Comments

  • goatsgoats Newcomer

    It doesn't even save your grid settings each time you change a floor lmao. This shit sucks

  • MonsenMonsen 🖼️ 45 images Cartographer Administrator
    edited July 17

    Whose idea was it to place the Change Floor as an actual part of the map instead of a tool? How are you meant to use it when it doesn't even save your position on each floor?

    I assume you refer to the navigation bar you get in the lower right corner when creating a map with multiple floors. When you do this, you actually create several independent drawings that aren't dependent on each other, and changes to one does not affect the others. This nav bar is just an easy shortcut to jump between maps, but do remember that these are completely independent maps, not somethings like layers on the same map. No map level settings will carry over between them.

    How can I place an object in a specific place? I want to have an object on the top floor and line up with the lower floor.

    Easiest way to line it up is to copy it via the clipboard. Just do an Edit->Copy on the entity you have on the top floor, and when asked for the copy origin, specify 0,0 as the point. Then, when pasting it to the lower map, just paste it to 0,0, and it will be in the exact same place.

    Most important of all, why use this over photoshop?

    Because Photoshop is horribly difficult and convoluted with a learning curve like a cliff wall? Just my personal honest opinion, I know others will disagree, but we all have our reasons for using the software we like best. If you prefer Photoshop, you are allowed to use the artwork that came with CC3+ with it, so you can buy CC3+ and addons just for the artwork.

  • goatsgoats Newcomer

    is there a way to copy-paste the coordinates? When I tried clicking on it, it didn't do anything.

  • MonsenMonsen 🖼️ 45 images Cartographer Administrator

    You can find the coordinates of any entity by using Info -> List on it. But if you use 0,0 as I wrote above both for the origin point during the copy and when you pasting it, you don't need to know the actual coordinates, since what you are basically doing is copying and pasting it with the same offset without caring exactly what that might be.

    JimP
  • LoopysueLoopysue 🖼️ 28 images Cartographer ProFantasy

    I think there may have been a Discord at some point. It may even still exist. I don't know. I really hate Discord. You spend half an hour explaining something to someone and it's vanished a day later when someone else asks the very same question.

    JimPAleD
  • I love the way some people go about getting help. Great incentive to help - not. Well chosen username.

    JimPCalibre
  • Learning the interface is good. I have turned out over five thousand maps over the past 18 years. True, my ealry ones weren't very good, but I kept at it. This was before web pages, before Yahoo groups. First thing I learned there was: 1) not a paint program, it uses a CAD engine, 2) going through the tutorials is the best way to learn this and other software.

    I have made, with this software, dungeons, towns, villages, continents, islands, star ships, etc.

    CalibreAleD
  • thehawkthehawk Traveler
    edited July 17
    What JimP said. You cannot get the most of (or much of, really) out of this program without using the manual, guide pamphlets, and / or videos. It is challenging to try and intuit your way through things. I wouldn't even call it a learning curve, because it's more about unlearning what you're used to, because it's not like what you've used before - so it doesn't operate like what you've used before. It also doesn't produce an end-product like other types of programs.

    Which gets us to the other question - why choose CC3 over Photoshop. It's the same thing as whether to choose a pad of paper and a box of crayons or a bin of legos - what are you trying to accomplish.
    JimPAleD
  • As @JimP said -- this isn't a paint app. That's the first paradigm you need to set aside.

    Yes, there's a learning curve, and it's steep. But it's not insurmountable, and when you start to come to grips with it you appreciate why things are they way they are.

    Working through the manual is a very good way to start the journey. You're very unlikely to be able to puzzle it out on your own

    JimP
  • goatsgoats Newcomer

    I'm frustrated. These controls are terrible. The design choices for navigation are terrible. It's just generally really shoddy. If you need to read through countless pdf's to learn how to use a program, then it's poorly made. Here, take https://probabletrain.itch.io/dungeon-scrawl as an example for good design, you don't need to watch hours of tutorials. You click, it does what you want it to do. You don't need to press ESC, and then select another tool, and then refresh the map, and then right-click and then left-click, and then repeat.


    Make a dungeon with multiple intersecting levels. But apparently, it can't do that since each floor can't be connected.


    I think a huge red flag is when the most popular topic on the forums is how to use the software.

  • @goats:

    If you need to read through countless pdf's to learn how to use a program, then it's poorly made. 

    I would suggest just reading and working through one pdf -- the manual that comes with the program. Yes, it will take some time, but then you'd be giving an informed opinion. CC is not a poorly made app. It'd be a little like saying Blender or AutoCAD was poorly made because you couldn't figure it out just by messing around.

    Have a look at the maps and drawings @Lillhans or @Loopysue produce -- just to name two. These are people who clearly know their stuff and other packages -- and yet they choose to use CC as part of their toolkit. That should tell you something.

  • goatsgoats Newcomer

    but how can I make multiple floors line up?

  • Use the multiple floors option when you first open a map. It seems you just want programs to work without reading the instructions - what a good way to go about life. So glad your intuition trumps common sense. If you don't like the program, why troll us with your offensive language, and use another program.

    George
  • edited July 18

    Here is how I line up floors.

    Start a map in ghe size I want each floor to be in. As an example: 500 x 400.

    Save that map as map01, then save as the same one as map02. Do as many as you want.

    Next load back in map01. Using the room and corridor tool, place rooms and corridors. It does take some getting used to.

    As an example, spiral stairs in a room lower left corner of the map.

    Save that.

    Load map02. Make room in the same location as the one in map01. Then using the same tools, make different size rooms, connect the with corridors.

    I hope that made sense as I'm half asleep and auto correct is going to.

    Im going back to sleep.

    If I made errors I think someone can mention where I went wrong.

    AleD
  • Hi!

    I think that everyone can obtain very nice and personalized map with CC+.

    Starting is not easy and, depending on the amount of details you want, it will take more or less time. For me it has been extremely helpful to follow live mapping on youtube. You don't have to do it live, of course. Chose, for example, a kind of map you want (city, oveland, dungeon) and follow Remy or Ralf while they do the same kind of map with the same style. You can do exactly the same r change as you please. After a couple of videos like that (2 or 3 hours) you'll have learned a lot and you'll have a couple of maps!

    There are videos now for any type of maps you could want, also the multiple floor dungeons:


    If do a map while copying what Ralf is doing here you'll learn a lot and have a well made map :)

    cheers!

  • goatsgoats Newcomer
    edited July 18

    Oh, it's very easy. All you need to do is to open a new map

    Save the Map.

    Save the Map again in a separate save.

    Load the many maps.

    Use the room tool

    use the Corridor Tool

    Place things

    Put the stairs in the corner

    Save the map

    Save the Map again in a separate save

    Load the many maps

    Use the Room Tool

    Corridor Tool

    Select Tool

    Right Click

    Left Click

    Left Click

    Change the numbers

    Left Click

    Click on the dropdown bar

    Select Info and List

    Copy

    Edit

    Paste

    Copy

    Type in details

    Paste

    Type in details

    All you need to do is read through these hundred+ pages of PDF while referring to images and cross-referencing inside of the actual PDF--Or you can watch these couple of hour-long videos.


    >It seems you just want programs to work without reading the instructions - what a good way to go about life.


    Good programs rely on intuition, where icons, results, feedback and ease-of-use come naturally to the user. I've made a comparison, that was ignored, of a map creator that isn't as fluffy and pointlessly difficult.


    Like seriously, you need to press Refresh when you place an object down that's around floors. You need to manually edit the layers because you placed things wrong, instead of it being automatic (when will a mountain ever be in front of trees?), autosave is literally a button prompt. It's choppy and laggy for when you pan around the canvas, laggier than photoshop. When you delete objects, there's a white square that needs a refresh. With doors and walls, why not have it so the door automatically connects to the wall and deletes the segment of the wall underneath it? Why not add brush and scatter options for creating forests instead of clicking, dragging? If you click on another window and drag the CC+ Window, there will be floating text where it thinks your mouse was. There's no blank tool option, where it doesn't do anything if you click. There are no resizing bars, instead, you need to type it in manually. You can't move layers up and down or overlayed or change the opacity. Why are there two colour selectors? Why not just one? They're exactly the same. The manual still uses Windows 95 (that's older than I am), why? It doesn't look clean and makes it look like abandonware. There are so many more glaring design issues that this is just the surface.

    And it's not an MRI machine, dude; it's a map maker where you draw lines. You shouldn't need to read layers of instructions if you're new. You should be able to click and then click, that's it. And for the more advanced stuff? Feel free to do theory work.

    Let's compare the design to this free web browser tool (mentioned earlier). To make a layered dungeon, all you gotta do is make two layers and then build what you want on which layer... Yep, that's it.


    >If you don't like the program, why troll us with your offensive language, and use another program.


    I think this has potential, but it's in desperate need of modernising, maybe an entire remake. I'm glad I only bought the entire pack for 10 dollars, and that money was for charity since this is just generally bad. I was willing to learn the intricacies, but this seems pointless when there are better and easier methods. And some things are just flat-out missing like proper layers, how am I meant to work with universal features missing? And I haven't been offensive either unless you're offended with complaining and shit, meanwhile you feel the need to insult me for not enjoying a piece of outdated software.

  • seycyrusseycyrus Traveler

    OP does not know what he is talking about. Approximately 90% of what he says is incorrect, the other 10% is a matter of opinion.


    The program he offered up has little more functionality that using a crayon on a napkin.


    He has learned one thing, and wants everything else to be the same as the one thing he has learned.

  • goatsgoats Newcomer

    What is incorrect?

    >The program he offered up has little more functionality that using a crayon on a napkin.


    And yet, it has functional layers. Which was my entire point, that a simple little tool has layers and a simpler design compared to a paid software.

  • MonsenMonsen 🖼️ 45 images Cartographer Administrator

    CC3+ isn't the easiest or most intuitive program out there, I'll give you that. It does require a little effort to learn properly, but once you have the understanding of how it works it is far more powerful and you can to much more advanced stuff than in those simple 2-click programs. But that power comes with a cost of being a bit harder to learn. I won't be arguing against you calling the GUI old fashioned either. But most of the rest of what you wrote is either directly wrong or easily changeable, or happen for good reasons:

    Like seriously, you need to press Refresh when you place an object down that's around floors.

    I understand why the refresh can be weird, but it is for performance reasons. CC3+ isn't a bitmap editor like Photoshop, and a CC3+ map contains thousands of entities that need to rendered for every screen update. In Photoshop, you just have a grid of pixels (one per layer). You can have things like vector objects and such in PS too, but not the same amount. Everything being an entity you can manipulate has a huge advantage when editing your drawing, but yes, it does come with a performance cost. Not automatically redrawing the screen for every minor edit is the way to offset that.

    You need to manually edit the layers because you placed things wrong, instead of it being automatic (when will a mountain ever be in front of trees?)

    CC3+ adds things to the correct sheet (equivalent to layers in Photoshop, named sheets instead of layers because CC had layers long before image editors, so they were named sheets to avoid changing existing terminology. In CC3+, layers are just a grouping mechanic, use sheets whenever you would use layers in photoshop) automatically. Exactly how they are added depend on each individual drawing style, some have mountains on one sheet and trees on another, some place them on the same. This isn't decided by the program globally, but by the style. And yes, you may absolutely want to place a mountain in front of a tree, or partially anyway, to let the top of the tree stick up behind the mountain side. Generally, a single run of sort symbols in map fixes any ordering issues you may have.

    autosave is literally a button prompt

    The autosave prompt is a bit annoying, but you can turn off the propmt form the autosave options and just have it save automatically in the background instead of bothering you.

    It's choppy and laggy for when you pan around the canvas, laggier than photoshop. When you delete objects, there's a white square that needs a refresh.

    These things are for the same reason as mentioned above under refresh. White square goes away whenever you zoom/scroll the map as well as when you hit refresh, it is just a temporary artifact.

    With doors and walls, why not have it so the door automatically connects to the wall and deletes the segment of the wall underneath it?

    They do. Again, this is a property controlled by the style, but most dungeon styles have doors and windows that align to the wall, and cut it.

    Why not add brush and scatter options for creating forests instead of clicking, dragging?

    Wouldn't mind a brush, but for forests and random symbols in an area, you have the Fill with Symbols and Symbols in Area commands. Most overland styles have forest drawing tools that uses these commands to fill the area you define with trees.

    If you click on another window and drag the CC+ Window, there will be floating text where it thinks your mouse was.

    True, the floating prompt can get temporary stuck until you move the mouse inside the CC3+ window again. Note that if you wish to get completely rid of it, you can turn it off from the program options.

    There's no blank tool option, where it doesn't do anything if you click.

    Not sure why you would need this? You can't do anything with the drawing without a command anyway, so that would basically just be ignoring your clicks. CC3+ repeats the previous command when you click without selecting a new command, because that's what you usually want to do. If you really want a blank command, CC3+ has one though, but it is not on the toolbars or menus, because it isn't normally needed, but you can activate it by typing NULL and hitting enter on the command line.

    There are no resizing bars, instead, you need to type it in manually.

    True. I know many would love to have these. But you don't need to type in things unless you want, when you use for example the sclae command on an entity, it is resized just by moving your mouse up/down so you can eyeball the size. Typing is good when you want exact values and high precision though.

    You can't move layers up and down or overlayed or change the opacity.

    You can, but as I said above, in CC3+ these are the sheets. Sheets can be reordered at will, and you can add effects such as transparency to them to change their opacity.

    Why are there two colour selectors? Why not just one? They're exactly the same.

    How are they the same? You have the color bar on the left hand side which gives quick access to a subset of colors, and then the color indicator on the main status bar which you can click to bring up the full color dialog.

    The manual still uses Windows 95 (that's older than I am), why?

    Where did you get that manual from? It certainly isn't the one provided with the program. The CC3+ manual doesn't really address operating systems because that's irrelevant, but every screenshot in the manual is from CC3+ running on Windows 10.

    AleD
  • Has he bought a version which is incomplete - I am not sure where he could get the who;e program for just $10.

    @seycyrus I am not sure who you mean by OP - I assume you mean goat?

    @Monsen Please get this jerk off the forum - he is quite a pr..k, and he has no idea what he is talking about.

    @goats Why do others like it so much if you think it is a piece of shit. You seem to be here only to carp, and I suspect you have some preview program - but if you like paint type programs, why did you bother to get a CAD program. Get off, so we don't have to listen (digitally) to your whining about a program you can't figure out because you evidently can't be bothered to learn a manual, or try out things first to get the hang of the program - like I would have to do if I wanted to use Photoshop. just because I have great difficulty with it, and it is FAR from intuitive, then would I be justified in criticizing it for that - of course not. I think this is a case of blame the user, not the product. Why don't you stick to Inkarnate.

  • LoopysueLoopysue 🖼️ 28 images Cartographer ProFantasy

    An explanation of CC3's sheets and layers can be found on page 13 of the CC3+ manual. The manual itself is very simple and full of images, so it would probably take about 10 minutes to get to it even if you read and learned all the stuff before it.

    Like Monsen, I am also curious to know where you got your manual from, since mine doesn't mention Win 95 either.

  • goatsgoats Newcomer
    edited July 18

    Why do you keep insulting me? Literally, everyone in this entire thread hasn't resorted to flinging insults. Relax, dude, there's no fighting going on. I also only got it for charity through humblebundle. also don't know what you mean by preview program. OP means Original Poster, so yeah, that's referring to me.


    >I understand why the refresh can be weird, but it is for performance reasons. CC3+ isn't a bitmap editor like Photoshop, and a CC3+ map contains thousands of entities that need to rendered for every screen update. In Photoshop, you just have a grid of pixels (one per layer). You can have things like vector objects and such in PS too, but not the same amount. Everything being an entity you can manipulate has a huge advantage when editing your drawing, but yes, it does come with a performance cost. Not automatically redrawing the screen for every minor edit is the way to offset that.

    Ah, that explains so much. I understand now. Is it normal for the mouse to be choppy? I have a really strong computer, so I don't think it's my system that's chugging. You could try adding some performance solutions, like temporarily grouping all the entities and then ungrouping the one that's not selected? If that makes any sense at all.


    >Exactly how they are added depend on each individual drawing style, some have mountains on one sheet and trees on another, some place them on the same. This isn't decided by the program globally, but by the style. And yes, you may absolutely want to place a mountain in front of a tree, or partially anyway, to let the top of the tree stick up behind the mountain side. Generally, a single run of sort symbols in map fixes any ordering issues you may have.

    >They do. Again, this is a property controlled by the style, but most dungeon styles have doors and windows that align to the wall, and cut it.

    Well, that also explains a lot. Not sure if I agree with the design of such a thing, as it makes it insanely confusing for newcomers who watch one tutorial, complete it, and then do another tutorial, finding that the buttons don't add up, and then going back to the first tutorial and finding that now that first tutorial isn't useful.

    >True. I know many would love to have these. But you don't need to type in things unless you want, when you use for example the sclae command on an entity, it is resized just by moving your mouse up/down so you can eyeball the size. Typing is good when you want exact values and high precision though.

    I was mostly referring to the sidebars and toolbars.

    >You can, but as I said above, in CC3+ these are the sheets. Sheets can be reordered at will, and you can add effects such as transparency to them to change their opacity.

    So layers in the program, aren't actually layers? Sheets are the layers? Can you create sheets? Would it be possible to make a castle using the sheets, where each sheet is a separate floor, and stacking them on top of each other until you get to the roof?

    My main program with CC+ is the layers and the lack of saving settings between each floor. It's really frustrating.


    >How are they the same? You have the color bar on the left hand side which gives quick access to a subset of colors, and then the color indicator on the main status bar which you can click to bring up the full color dialog.

    I watched some tutorials and most people in them used the top bar for the full colours. The Colour Bar just seems kind of redundant if you have access to the 'better' full colour dialogue.

    >Where did you get that manual from? It certainly isn't the one provided with the program. The CC3+ manual doesn't really address operating systems because that's irrelevant, but every screenshot in the manual is from CC3+ running on Windows 10.

    Help>Quickstart Guide

    It's purely visual as its images, but it doesn't look very pretty.

  • MonsenMonsen 🖼️ 45 images Cartographer Administrator
    edited July 18

    Ah, that explains so much. I understand now. Is it normal for the mouse to be choppy? I have a really strong computer, so I don't think it's my system that's chugging

    Is it really choppy, or is it just jumping between snap points? If you have cursor snap on (button lower right, right click it for additional options) the mouse pointer will jump between the snap points whenever you use a command that places things.

    So layers in the program, aren't actually layers? Sheets are the layers? Can you create sheets? Would it be possible to make a castle using the sheets, where each sheet is a separate floor, and stacking them on top of each other until you get to the roof?

    Yes to all. Click Sheets and Effects to access the sheet list.

    I do recommend reading a bit more about this in the manual.

    For the last of those questions in particular, remember that each floor in the castle needs multiple sheets, such as a floor sheet, a walls sheet, a symbol sheet, a text sheet, and more. One of the reason for this is that effects are also associated with sheets, so you can't have floors and walls on the same sheet, and sheets also determine order, so if you want walls to appear on top of floors, they need to be on separate sheets. So while all of this is absolutely possible in CC3+, it gets a bit complicated because you cannot rely on the program automatically choosing the right sheet (Which of the 5 floors sheets should the floor you are drawing now go on.). It is NOT a good place to start with such a drawing before you are much more comfortable in the operations of sheets and tools.


    Help>Quickstart Guide

    It's purely visual as its images, but it doesn't look very pretty.

    Yea, you are right. The quickstart guide haven't had it's visual updated in a while. I do recommend using the the manual instead, also available from the help menu.

  • seycyrusseycyrus Traveler

    Virtually everything that you have written.

    The % sign indicates "percentage" and represents a fraction out of 100. To convert from a percentage, take the number and move the decimal place two places to the left and multiply this number by the total number of items that you are taking a percentage of, rounding off to an assumed level of accuracy, dictated by the level of accuracy conveyed in the numbers used..

    In this case, let us low-ball the number of illiterate things that you have said at 72.

    To get 90% of 72, one would multiply .90 by 72 and obtain 65 (rounding up).

    One can likewise, perform a similar operation to obtain the number of opinions you have stated, or one can just subtract the number of ignorant statements from the total number of statements (here assumed to be 72). To continue to use the example, it would be 72 - 65 = 7 opinions.

    If you'd like to go over one of your posts, piecemeal, I could perhaps be encouraged to comply.

    Please take one of your posts and and break it up into individual sentences, numbering each of them. I will tell you into which category they apply (either incorrect or opinion, sadly there does not seem to be a 3rd option here), and we can do the calculations and see how close my initial estimate was to reality.

  • You can add layers and sheets. I do that for some of my maps.

  • MonsenMonsen 🖼️ 45 images Cartographer Administrator
    edited July 18

    I've closed this thread.

    Please start a new thread to ask further questions. Please don't bring along anything from this thread that hasn't anything to do with CC3+.

    LoopysueJimPAleDTheschabiQuenten
This discussion has been closed.