Too early for a CC4 wishlist thread, or is it timely?

For those of us watching the fantastic live mapping videos, we have spotted a CC4 folder on Ralf's mothership machine and he has confirmed that, yes, v4 is under development. I was wondering if a wishlist thread might be useful around now. If it isn't, please feel free to delete this discussion so as not to silt up the forum with unnecessary cruft!

Thanks in advance.



  • MonsenMonsen 🖼️ 44 images Cartographer Administrator

    Feel free to post wishes. It is always nice to know what the community thinks and wants. Please do be aware that some wishes may not be feasible due to technical limitations, so popularity here doesn't necessarily mean it will be implemented, and for the same reasons, not implementing a suggestion doesn't mean you are ignored.

    ProFantasy staff, including the main developer, do read these boards, so suggestions will certainly be noticed when posted here.

  • OverCriticalHitOverCriticalHit Traveler
    edited April 5

    Great! I'll get the ball rolling.

    A couple of these I've already emailed to Ralf, but I'll post them here out of interest:

    1. Dimension line tools for floorplans. Ralf very reasonably explained that that capability was explicitly left out of ProFantasy's version of the underlying software so that people couldn't use CC as a cheap way to get a CAD application, but if possible I'd like that implemented if the landscape has changed. I like putting dimension lines in on floorplans and can obviously do it manually, but it'd be great having an automatic tool to do it. Very much understand if it's not able to done, though.
    2. When doing Line to Path, there looks to be a set number of segments that an arc or circle will translate to as a path. I'd like the option to choose how many segments the resulting path will be (similar to how SketchUp works in that respect).
    3. Binary operations! I'd LOVE unions, differences, intersections, exclusions and so on. These can be done manually using trims, splits and breaks and so on -- but with a lot of overlapping shapes it can very quickly become a lengthy and confusing process.
    4. 64-bit support, although I don't know enough to know exactly what is limited by 32 bit. I'm assuming the palette might be the main thing.
    5. More choice in anti-aliasing algos when in it comes to export. Again, I'm no expert in this, but I have noticed that output dialogs from other graphics packages tends to have more options available at the export screens.

    What I DON'T want to see changed too much is... the interface. I know from time to time people complain about it "looking dated", but for functionality it is very fast once you have gotten used to it. Now, whenever I'm working in software that does similar stuff (e.g. Inkscape) I often find myself wishing it behaved like CC. There are times when it's the other way around, but that is often more to do with what tools are available (e.g. gradient fills) than the UI itself.

    I'm sure there are more, but those are a few for the moment. Interested in seeing what others have to add!

  • I would love to see gradient fill, 64 bit, and more built in macros.

  • Line of Sight Export

    Line of Sight Export

    Oh, and did I mention that I want Line of Sight export?

  • jslaytonjslayton Mapmaker Moderator, ProFantasy

    What do you mean by "Line of Sight Export"?

  • DungeonDraft and DungeonFog both export a file format of .dd2vtt that includes the vector data for walls, windows, and doors. This allows the files to be directly imported into a virtual tabletop (currently d20Pro and MapTools natively, Foundry and Roll20 with a module addon) that then will grab that vector data and set the Line of Sight vision occluders without having to do it manually. Fantasy Grounds has the ability to import an image with a .xml file of the same name that has the vector point data in it to do the same thing (instead of an integrated file format).

    I personally use d20Pro and Fantasy Grounds, so it would be nice to get this feature for those two virtual tabletops, but it would be a good feature to get set up for ANY VTT.

    I bet Owlbear from d20Pro would be willing to work directly with the programmer to get this set up, and I bet there's someone from Fantasy Grounds that would do the same thing.

    1. 64 bit support with coding for multiple cores is essential. I do not think CC4 would be worth it without this. I have 8 cores running near 4 gig each with support for multiple threads. As soon as I turn on sheets (even if I do not have a lot of effects) it slows down. CAD uses the CPU rather than graphics card for rendering. It does a lot of calculations. However, the old FASTCAD core that is the base of CC3 is incapable of using more than 4 gig of ram and does not seem to support multiple cores or hyperthreading. It seems bizarre that CC3 runs equally well on a much less powerful machine just due to out of date programming.
    2. Being able to add guides to the map. These would not print, but would be provide a visual aid to the user much like on other graphics programs (PhotoShop).
    3. While it would through current users for a loop, it would help new users if you reversed the sheets. In other graphics programs, what is listed at the top is the top sheet/layer. In CC3 it is the bottom. Or even better yet, the option for multiple UI settings one can pick from a pre-select menu or customize yourself.
  • seycyrusseycyrus Traveler
    edited April 6

    Line of sight export.

    Would be nice to be able to get it now.

    I use Fantasy Grounds. I've tried to initiate an interaction in the past, but perhaps failed to properly express the intention/need.

    mike robel
  • This is a good suggestion from @DoubleDouble

    "One thing that is still a bit easier to "play around with" in GIMP are the hue/saturation and the equivalent of the RGB matrix values, because in GIMP it is a bit more visual with sliders that give immediate feedback in a preview window as you adjust them."

  • basilgassbasilgass Traveler

    I must admit I didn't had the time to play with CC3 as I would these last months... But I'm very happy to read that CC4 is in developpement.

    Supporting 64bit, multi-processor and, why not, graphic cards has already been mentioned and I totally agree that these should be implemented.

    Very important, I really love CC3. So don't misunderstand the comment below !

    I would like to comment the post of @OverCriticalHit concerning the user interface and must admit I do not agree 😊 I'm sure lots of CC3 user would prefer continuing using the way it's working... But I believe that this user interface may be a reason for potential newcomers to not get CC3. If you search on the web, there are some map making tools that are much easier to use without even needing to read the documentation. Certainly not as powerful, but a user is able to create maps very easily.

    And with my experience, as I'm not using it frequently (that may be my mistake 😋), I always need to check the doc, search the help to make things... As an example, I bought Perspective 3. I tried some little things without reading the docs... and well, it wasn't really nice 😂 I know, I should take some more time, read the docs, ... But I believe that a user should be able to open CC4 and should understand at least the default steps without reading the docs.

    So, concerning the user interface, I would like to see an update to the graphic parts and to the way things are done.

    1. A modern graphical user interface (no more Windows 95 buttons / icons 😅)
    2. Make the user experience more similar to actual (graphical/vector) apps (mimic Illustrator behaviors for example)
    3. In particular, instead of "replacing" the catalog file (when you load DD3, CC3, CD3, ...), it would be nice to have "tabs" and have a much easier way to browse your content.

    There are also some features I would like to see:

    1. Text to path that updates (when modifing the path, the text, ...) without having to create it again (or maybe I missed something).
    2. A river and a road tool, that would allow to add "branches" with a way to reduce or increase the river/road size.
    3. A content aware tab: when you select (should be done with a simple click), I would like to see a tab (window) which would show everything that can be done for it: change size, rotate, colors, duplicate, ...
    4. (maybe a stupid idea but I would find it cool): a 3d explosion of layers to see where are the different elements. Might be easier to see why sometime on object isn't correctly visible. Another option would be a "tree-like browser" of all items, with filtering options.
    5. And many more 😀
  • I would like a feature where ou can get a gradient between 2 colours - it is in FT3, would be great to have it in CC4

  • edited April 8

    I'd like to see refinements in linking between maps. I would like to have the ability to build a stand-alone atlas, independent of the program, with fully functional hot links between sub-maps contained within the atlas. I'd like the ability to do so without visual text and boundary boxes around symbols. Click on a city symbol, boom you are looking at the city map. Click on a building, boom you are looking at the ground floor floor plan. Click on a staircase in the floor plan, boom you just displayed the upper or lower floor, which ever is applicable. Click on a lamp on a desk, boom you just changed the lighting/shading. To me, the interactivity would be a valuable addition. Mind you, it would place an additional "burden" on the cartographer, building sheet lighting effects, etc. But the utility gained would be fantastic. I'd love the ability to click on a desk symbol to "open" a drawer to reveal an object that could be displayed in the drawer, then click on that object to reveal a description, or a close up view, or both. Hover over a symbol and it "highlights" to show that you can interact with it. This my version 4 dream!

  • kevbeck43kevbeck43 Traveler
    edited April 7

    I don't need to see the interface change but I too would love to be able to export my maps ready for VTT. So I guess that means I am echoing Line of Site Export. However is that even possible to program in with the underlying technology? I don't know programming so I wouldn't know. It seems to me though that DungeonDraft and DungeonFog use a completely different technology to do their maps.

    Honestly its not that hard to create line of sight within Fantasy Grounds, my VTT of choice for the moment, although Foundry looks pretty good too.

  • Different VTTs use different size maps. I have Epic-Table, which can handle 2000 pixel wide maps. Other VTTs use smaller maps.

  • taustinoctaustinoc Traveler

    MapTool can handle huge maps (by comparison) if you have enough memory, though it can get a bit slow. Biggest limitation is bandwidth to send it out to remote players.

  • I would love the ability to purge unused fill styles from the fill style properties selector. When importing fills by inserting other maps the fills list can get pretty congested and unwieldy.

    I agree with Quenten's request for a gradient effect. I've wanted this for a long while but never thought to ask for it.

    I would love to be able to export with a transparent background.

    I hope the UI remains CAD oriented. I really dislike most/all art software interfaces. In fact, I hope the software remains a CAD application.

  • I 2nd utilizing GPU and additional CPU core resources if they are available, especially for final rendering output.

  • jslaytonjslayton Mapmaker Moderator, ProFantasy

    @basilgass, Thanks for taking the time to respond and I have a couple of questions about your comments (I like comments):

    A modern graphical user interface (no more Windows 95 buttons / icons 😅)

    I will admit to being fairly out of touch with current design trends in GUI design. Do you have an example of a program that uses "A modern graphical user interface" that might be compatible with the notion of commands with parameters?

    And many more 😀

    Examples are good. If you can take the time to elaborate those ideas, that would be helpful. It might also help other folks in expressing their ideas.

  • OK,

    first the things I would like to stay:

    • User Interface: I don't really care if its "modern" or not, but what I like about CC3 ist, that the buttons als simple. The Icons fill the buttons completely. In many more modern apps, buttons are bigger, with the icons in them smaller. I don't like that.
    • It is a CAD Programm, NOT an art program and I love that. With it I can create maps I find beautifl, without the talent to draw better than I did in kindergarden.

    Things I would like to see:

    • The abillity to open more thhan one view of a map with effects active in one view and inactive in the other.
    • The abillity to put the sidebars, tools on my second screen, similar to how it can be done in ft3, giving more screenspace to the map

    Everything else like using multiple cores was already mentioned by someone else


  • My new computer has the same amount of ram, Win 10, and the same Intel graphic chip. But it is faster at 3.6 GHz over my older 1.6 GHz CPU. Map rendering goes much faster. Sample maps in the Annuals I had problems loading, load just fine now.

  • LoopysueLoopysue 🖼️ 24 images Cartographer ProFantasy

    @DoubleDouble You can probably speed up final output by increasing the Maximum Pixels Per Pass. Use the EXPORTSETMPPP command and if you only get four million in the command prompt enter forty million instead and try exporting the same map again.

  • I would like to see most (all) of the available commands in menus or buttons or menus that appear when you right click on a button.

    There are plenty of useful commands that you have to type in manually in the command line.

    When you have not used them for a while you start to ask yourself was it PALLOAD or LOADPAL 😊 and a newbie does not even know that this command exists for changing the colour palette...

    ...or the command EXPORTSETMPPP @Loopysue just mentioned above...

    ...or the command SIMPLIFY is not available either in a menu...I think...

  • @jslayton I'm not basilgass, but here is an image of a modern CAD GUI. I assume this is what he means.

    I am not fond of the dark theme that many modern software packages use, but then, I'm old and my eyes just don't see dark on dark like younger eyes might.

  • MonsenMonsen 🖼️ 44 images Cartographer Administrator

    @Shessar exclaimed:

    I am not fond of the dark theme that many modern software packages use, but then, I'm old and my eyes just don't see dark on dark like younger eyes might.

    Good to know I'm not the only one who take issues with this dark trend. Fortunately most software lets you change, those that don't annoy me.

  • LoopysueLoopysue 🖼️ 24 images Cartographer ProFantasy

    It depends on how dark and light everything is. Contrast is the key. This is Affinity Designer - another vector app.

    The lightest grey on this one is much darker than the lightest grey on Shessar's example, and the button icons are more brightly coloured.

    It is all just a matter of contrast, but having said that I'm getting really fed up with everything being black and charcoal myself. Where I use many different apps in a complicated workflow, it is only too easy to forget which app I'm in and press the wrong shortcut key!

  • basilgassbasilgass Traveler

    Thanks @Shessar , that's exactly the kind of "modern user interface" I was thinking at !

    @jslayton : I will take some time to compile all my ideas and will post them here !

    But already one thing that @WeathermanSweden already mentioned: CC3 has plenty of very useful commands and lots of them are hidden. One thing that would be cool is an option to show/hide commands in the menu, like the keyboard shortcuts.

    For example, in the Symbols menu, there is Define Symbol entry. This has the command DEFSYMD. It would be nice to see this command displayed in the menu, next the "Define Symbol" entry.

    Another thing that would be very useful and is related to a "modern user interface". If you take a programming application (Visual Studio Code or any other), there are some autocomplete features. What would be really appreciate is a command line that would do this:

    • start typing some letters... let say "sym"
    • a popup should display ALL commands containing the letters "sym"
    • some programing languages also has the ability to be clever enough to "reorganize" the letters. For example, with "symdef", some applications are able to determine that "DEFSYMD" could be the wanted command.

  • jslaytonjslayton Mapmaker Moderator, ProFantasy

    @shessar I was afraid that the dreaded ribbon would rear its head. Not just toolbar buttons, but different-sized and hierarchical toolbar buttons! I really doubt that the sort of overhaul required to use ribbons will happen in the near future. Sidebars and context-sensitivity are good things to work toward, though.

  • basilgassbasilgass Traveler

    Here are some ideas for "new map":

    When you open the CC3 application, it opens the last used file. I would prefer a "welcome page" where it would display:

    • (as thumbnails) all the latest maps,
    • (as thumbnails) the last renders
    • news about CC4 (updates, ...)

    A simple click on a map thumbnail should open it in CC4. And... an option to skip this welcome page to open automatically the latest file would certainly be interesting for those loving the current behvior.

    Next, when you create a new Overland Map with the Wizard, you have a popup where you have to choose the style:

    It would be nice to have a thumbnail view of ALL style instead of the list. And also a way to filter the metric or not metric versions.

    On the second popup:

    The Dimensions could hold some options, to make it fit some scale ratio (4:3, 16:9, A4, Letter, ...).

    Concerning the buttons on the corner, I would prefer a way to drag and drop the map title, compass, ... on the preview without placing them. A corner snap would allow to place these items like before.

    One the third popup:

    The Grid Overlay isn't displaying in the preview. This would be nice too!

    As a general feature, I would love to have a revamp version of this wizard. Instead of a popup with preview, it should display the different creation steps directly in the full window. This would allow to have quickier and easier the wanted result !

  • For me to use software, the colors have to have some contrast. So gray on gray, or red on black, just don't work for me.

    I'm satisfied with the current color scheme in CC3+.

    A few more keyboard shortcuts would be nice, but I know how difficult it is for that. I used some software some years ago that all commands had keyboard shortcuts... it was easier to use the menus instead of the more extensive 'shortcuts'.

  • basilgassbasilgass Traveler

    A few more keyboard shortcuts would be nice, but I know how difficult it is for that. I used some software some years ago that all commands had keyboard shortcuts... it was easier to use the menus instead of the more extensive 'shortcuts'.

    Some coding application also introduce double shortcuts. For example, opening the layer manager could be: Ctrl+K Ctrl+L

Sign In or Register to comment.