Help with Symbol and Catalog creation/management
Ciel
Traveler
I had a bunch of specific, detailed, point-by-point questions I wanted to ask here, but I deleted all that because it was making for a really huge post. Going to try to just boil down the problem generally before getting into most specifics:
Is there an in-depth tutorial on this somewhere? I feel like a baby thrown into the deep end of the pool when trying to work with this aspect of CC3. There are just way too many parts of it that I still don't have any kind of grasp on.
When should I use File > New > Symbol Catalogs, vs. Open Existing Map > Symbol Manager > New? If I do the latter, how big should I make the drawing window? Does it matter? How do I tell what kind of sizes the symbol will have relative to other symbols in my map? At what point in this process do I use "Define Symbol", and what do ANY of the options in the dialog window that pops up mean?
Those are just a few things off the top off my head. It's fair to say that I simply DO NOT have any kind of grasp on what the process is, generally, for making a new symbol and then using that symbol (alongside my existing symbols that came with the Annual Styles I use) in a map.
Note that I did get some info in another thread from a few months back (from posts by Monsen replying to questions I had asked). The information he provided was useful, but I'm still very confused about a lot of aspects of Symbol and Catalog creation/management. I just kinda lost track of that thread and didn't get around to replying with follow-up questions, and the whole symbols thing was so befuddling that I decided to just drop it and focus on other mapping aspects for a while. But I want to get this figured out so that I can make my own symbols/modify catalogs/import symbols, etc. when I need to do so (which will probably be soon).
Any and all helps is appreciated!
Is there an in-depth tutorial on this somewhere? I feel like a baby thrown into the deep end of the pool when trying to work with this aspect of CC3. There are just way too many parts of it that I still don't have any kind of grasp on.
When should I use File > New > Symbol Catalogs, vs. Open Existing Map > Symbol Manager > New? If I do the latter, how big should I make the drawing window? Does it matter? How do I tell what kind of sizes the symbol will have relative to other symbols in my map? At what point in this process do I use "Define Symbol", and what do ANY of the options in the dialog window that pops up mean?
Those are just a few things off the top off my head. It's fair to say that I simply DO NOT have any kind of grasp on what the process is, generally, for making a new symbol and then using that symbol (alongside my existing symbols that came with the Annual Styles I use) in a map.
Note that I did get some info in another thread from a few months back (from posts by Monsen replying to questions I had asked). The information he provided was useful, but I'm still very confused about a lot of aspects of Symbol and Catalog creation/management. I just kinda lost track of that thread and didn't get around to replying with follow-up questions, and the whole symbols thing was so befuddling that I decided to just drop it and focus on other mapping aspects for a while. But I want to get this figured out so that I can make my own symbols/modify catalogs/import symbols, etc. when I need to do so (which will probably be soon).
Any and all helps is appreciated!
Comments
Do you have the Tome of Ultimate Mapping?
Are you trying to create symbols and catalogues from things you have drawn in CC3, or are you trying to make them using png files?
What kind of symbols are you trying to create and turn into catalogues (Dungeon, Overland, or City - some of which have two files to shade the rooftops)
Have you ever watched Joe Sweeney's video about importing png files and creating symbol catalogues, or any other video (so I don't go and re-recommend any of them)?
It's entirely possible that I will end up using ALL of the following methods to create the symbols I need:
1. Create a symbol entirely from scratch (e.g. draw it in CC3 using the regular drawing tools)
2. Take an existing symbol that came with one of the Annual Styles I use and add to it/modify it
3. Import a PNG file, either as-is, or modify it before use. Technically, Overland and City. However, an important note (that I forgot to mention before!) is that these are for generally realistic, modern maps made with the following two styles:
-Modern Political: https://www.profantasy.com/annual/2010/june10.html
-Modern City: https://www.profantasy.com/annual/2007/september07.html
(I'm not sure why the two links are not clickable links...)
So the kinds of symbols I'm going to be working with are almost certainly going to be "abstract" - a logo for an airport, a box with letters inside denoting a type of rail service that stops at a station on the map, etc. I'm not working with symbols that are supposed to look like actual things such as houses or buildings, etc., that you'd expect to find in fantasy maps. I did watch that video, someone linked it in the other thread I referenced in my OP, but I found it focused mostly on the importing process. Which - don't get me wrong - is useful info, but unless I missed something in the video, I didn't see much about the more general idea of "what is the process for creating a new symbol/catalog", which is where I feel stuck; in particular I didn't see anything that would answer my questions above (for example, I don't recall "Define Symbol" being mentioned at all in the video, but it was presented as something I "need to use" after drawing a new symbol in the other thread).
Thanks for replying!
CC3 is the most marvellously adaptive app, but sometimes that can be a bit overwhelming because its very adaptiveness means there are always several ways of doing things - none of them 'wrong' (unless they fail to achieve the desired outcome), but some of them are better or less convoluted and time consuming than others
And now that I know you've already watched the Joe Sweeney vid I won't push it at you again :P
Re: everything else... I think the scope of my inquiry is getting inflated. I'm not trying to do "a lot of different things", as you put it Loopysue. The list in my previous post of different ways to make symbols was based on my understanding of "these are the various ways to create new symbols", and I can't rule out any of those methods yet, as far as what I might be trying to do.
I do appreciate the replies, but I don't think my questions are coming across correctly. Perhaps I didn't word my posts well, but all I want to do is understand how to create custom symbols, and then make those symbols available alongside the symbols sets I'm already using (from either the "Modern Political" annual style, for my national/province-level maps, or the "Modern City" annual style, for city maps). And how exactly I go about doing that has been completely baffling to me, I've been unable to get my head around it.
I think I kind of get what you're saying, Monsen, but there is something about this whole topic that I still find confusing. So what I'm going to do is, when I get home, open CC3+ up and try some stuff out, and then follow-up in this thread if I'm still having trouble.
However, one last question before I leave it at that for the moment: assuming I do manage to create some new symbols... one thing I've seen mentioned repeatedly is that I'm not just making a new symbol, but a new CATALOG, when I open up a brand-new file to work on creating symbols. So that being the case, how exactly do I get any new symbols I make into the same catalog with the existing annual style symbols?
That's a shame about the Tome. It has whole loads of info in it about all of this.
And don't worry - I'm known for misunderstanding the question around here! :P I have autism and take everything completely literally unless I'm really concentrating. The sort of person that gets a joke about half an hour too late and then falls apart laughing while everyone else looks on in a state of bewilderment.
I learned how to make my own symbols (a different way to the way you are doing it) by reading the relevant sections of the Tome, and watching that Joe Sweeney vid.
That was the basics covered. Of course, like with all things, the deeper you dig the more there is to go. About half of what I know right now is thanks to Monsen answering all kinds of stupid questions I've asked on this forum
When importing bitmap symbols, what is the recommended resolution for the bitmaps? And format? (png?)
Such as, for a dungeon or battlemap symbol, how many pixels per foot (or meter)? 10?
How about overland symbols?
I know when you automatically create the VH, HI, LO versions is makes different resolution ones, but the native graphic, what resolution should it be?
Resolution depends on map type, given in pixels per map unit (which is feet for everything in this list but overland maps, which uses miles)
Overland: 20
City: 40
Dungeon/floorplan: 100
Character Artist: 500
These numbers are based that your symbols are in the VH quality, you can skip this and only use symbols of HI and lower, if so, divide the numbers by 2.5. This may be appropriate if you find images on the internet, since not all images would be a high enough resolution to qualify for VH in the first place. For reference, all the four community art packs (Vintyri, Bogie, CSUAC, Dundjinni Archives) uses HI as their highest resolution.
There are no hard and fast rules about resolution, but the standards used by PF are in the Tome in one of the margin comments. They are 100 pixels per foot for Dungeon, 40 pixels per foot for city, and 20 pixels per foot for overland.
I usually work out the size of the original artwork by multiplying the dimensions by the required standard resolution these days. I didn't do it with my early symbols because I didn't really understand it back then, but if I'm doing a city symbol these days and I want it to be 20 feet by 30 feet on the map, I draw it 20x40 pixels by 30x40 pixels, or 800 x 1200 pixels. If I was going to do the original of the same small house but make it dungeon grade I would multiply the feet by 100 instead, so it would be 2000 x 3000.
If (as was the case with the Japanese Temple symbols) I'm actually using CC3 to draw the original symbols, I can draw them any size I like, as long as when I render them to png files for use as symbols I export them at the correct size for the desired resolution.
Took too long to write my bit, then didn't notice you had already posted :P
I did New > Symbol Catalogs, and then on the canvas that was presented to me, I made a simple black box using the "box" tool, and placed the existing Airport Symbol from Modern Political (which, without modification, is a red plane symbol with no boxes or anything around it) inside it. Which gave me this:
I then used "Define Symbol", picked the two objects, and for the settings in the Define Symbol window, went with this:
Saved it as a catalog, then opened that catalog with my map, and placing the symbol got me this:
A black box with no red plane. I also tried making it again, but this time with "Bounding Entity" set to "None" in the Define Symbol settings, but that made no difference.
SO yeah. I have no idea what made it so I got this empty black box, instead of the box with the plane, once I tried to use the symbol, nor do I get how to use those settings in the Define Symbols window, really. And I also still have zero clue how I would take a symbol I created (or imported) and make it so it's in the same catalog as the existing (default) Modern Political symbols, so they can all be used together.
Any help is appreciated.
- Nested Symbols: I don't know if this is stated anywhere obviously (because it rarely comes up), but you shouldn't nest symbols. That red plane is already a symbol, so by embedding that into another symbol, you nest symbol definitions, which can lead to strange outcomes. What you should always do if you wish to include another symbol in your symbol is to use explode on it first, before defining the symbol. Explode reduces the symbol to it's individual component entities, which are safe to define into a new symbol.
- Sheets: When you placed that symbol, it probably automatically created a SYMBOL sheets, and was sent there. However, symbols, when made, are single-sheet only. You should collect all entities that are going to be part of the symbol on a single sheet before defining it. The reason for this is to control what goes on top of what, since sheets override drawing order, things may simply not appear in the same order int he finished drawing, so even if your red plane did appear on top when you made the symbol, the plane entity may actually be below the black square in the final symbol. By having all parts on the same sheet before defining it, you would be able to catch this and use the bring in front of/send behind command to order the entities to appear as you want them to before defining the symbols.
However, there is one other thing I haven't had answered yet, though I've asked about this a few times. What exactly should I do to make sure a symbol is actually available for use? That's one thing I still don't have the faintest idea how to do. It seems I'm creating an entire "catalog" when I draw symbols by using "New > Symbol Catalogs", but the thing is, I don't actually WANT them to be their own catalog. Ultimately, any and all symbols I make for this project (maps of a modern "could be part of the real world" kind of place) need to be able to be used alongside the existing symbols that came with Modern Political and Modern City. So... how would I go about doing that?
1) First define all your symbols to a new catalog and keep this as your main file. The official catalogs can be overwritten by a patch, so you want to make sure your symbols don't get lost
2) Take a backup of the official catalogs before modifying them so you don't have to reinstall if you mess them up somehow.
Then, to get the symbols from your new catalog to the official catalog, open the official catalog up as a map, and open your new catalog up in the symbol catalog window. Now, every symbol you click on in the symbol catalog window (your catalog) will be copied to the catalog you have open in the map window (official catalog). After clicking ont he symbols you need, you can verify by using the symbol manager that they are indeed there (and rearrange them if you need to), then simply hit save to save the updated catalog.
If you are making more than a 2-3 symbols, I strongly recommend just keeping them in your own catalog file instead of modifying the official catalogs, and instead create a catalog setting (See Symbol Catalog Filters and Settings starting on page 83 of the manual) for your new catalog, so that it will pop up as an additional choice when you use the symbol catalog buttons.
One question: So if I'm understanding you here, you mean: instead of adding my custom symbols to the existing catalog, thus making it so that ALL symbols (the default ones and mine) appear in the "main" symbol window, all at once, make it so that the symbol setting buttons would select between the default symbols, vs a separate catalog with my custom ones?
If I've got that right, then my question is: why do you recommend that? Is there a technical reason, some way in which adding several symbols to an existing catalog can potentially cause a problem? Or is it recommended because most people find it easier to sort larger numbers of symbols with different catalogs?
If it's only the latter, personally I'd definitely much rather have as many symbols as possible in one single catalog. I don't use those top symbol buttons or the "symbol style toggle" button much - hardly at all, in fact. And I prefer to minimize the number of clicks needed to access different tools.
Of course, for the moment, it's moot, since I only have a need for 2 custom symbols (per mapping style) right now. But if, in the future, I wanted to create more, it would apply.
For whatever reason, I've had an enormous amount of trouble with the concepts when it comes to symbol management, so I can't say for sure I won't be here asking for help again, but I'll give it a go this weekend.