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    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2020 edited
     
    This is the beginning of my outside map for Areneae Keep for Lorelei's mapping competition. Thanks for creating the competition with these great prizes.

    I've started with the outside, but the plan, if I have the time, is to make interior maps as well.


    Right now, the map isn't anything to look at. I need to get the structure in place first before I decorate it.

    My map shows the main keep from the area map. Since the area map shows multiple buildings here, I decided that the main building is a single fortified building, and not a full castle with walls and multiple buildings inside the walls, I am thinking it is a bit more spread out because of how the buildings are placed on the map. Perhaps there once was a main wall blocking the pass that gives access to the keep?


    One of my main challenges here is to give this a ruined look. Perspectives itself doesn't really offer much in the area of broken walls, so I need to draw this myself. Getting the perspective right on these things is quite tricky. Getting parts to fit, like the floor that wraps around the tower and is partially in front of it and partially behind it is also an interesting challenge.

    Just getting this far required a lot of construction lines, some maths, and a good understanding of the various coordinate systems in CC3+.
      Stage 1.jpg
      t.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2020
     
    oooooooh. i love a good perspectives map
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2020
     
    Let's hope I get to the 'good' stage then :)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2020
     
    Looks good to me.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2020
     
    Ooh, Remy!

    Looking forward to this :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2020
     
    So, didn't get too much visible progress today, but I did get to add some battlements and some wooden beams extending from the hole in the roof (Presumably the broken ends of the beams holding up the roof.)

    When working with the battlements, I did figure out something new. You can actually store relative coordinates in a variable. They'll have to be stored in a string variable, and not a point variable, but that doesn't really matter. Storing "<330,10" in a variable saved me from a bunch of typing.

    Working with this have been quite tricky, because I often have the need for an entity top be behind another entity at one location, and in front of it in another, such as the floor wrapping around the tower. This is one of the things that sounds so easy on paper, but is really difficult to get right in practice. Due to this, this small progress did take a considerable amount of time to pull off.

    Still just working on the structure of the drawing, decoration is still way off.
      Stage 2.jpg
  1.  
    Uau! Great work! The battlement is my favourite part =)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2020
     
    I like the cutaway roof :)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2020
     
    Wowsers !
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2020 edited
     
    Today's progress. I fixed the battlements to look like a continuous entity, and not just blocks stacked on top of a wall. Also made some ruined/broken pieces, this is a ruin after all. And added battlements to the first tower as well.

    Doesn't look like much progress, but there is a lot of detail work here, taking a lot of hours to complete.
      Stage 3.jpg
      Stage 3a.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2020
     
    :O Wow!

    I'm very impressed. Having messed with Per3 only a couple of times I know just about enough to understand how much work that really was!
  2.  
    I find it incredible! I just do not know if I like a diferent texture on each part of the building: one to the towers wall, another for the castle wall, another for the tower's floor... Are you testing textures or you pretend to use such a diverse array of textures?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2020
     
    Textures are still undecided, but I did initially go for different textures to avoid this being a monotone gray blob. Needed to bring some variation in there.
  3.  
    Posted By: MonsenTextures are still undecided, but I did initially go for different textures to avoid this being a monotone gray blob. Needed to bring some variation in there.


    Yes... That is a challenge!
  4.  
    VERY Nice!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2020
     
    Man, these things are dangerous. Apparently, towers can collapse. Better stay clear of those.
      stage 4.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2020
     
    WOW! Again!

    That must have taken such a lot of patience! :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2020
     
    It takes a bit of fiddling, but it is getting quicker. I learned a lot from handling the hole in my walls and the broken battlements.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2020 edited
     
    So, this is getting a bit more into the territory where I want it, but there are still plenty to do yet. The main structure of the map have been completed though, so it is mostly decorating and tweaking effects now. A few more iterations, and I might even have something decent here.

    This latest iteration use light sources for some of the effects. These are nice, but they are extremely tricky in a perspectives map. Everything about perspectives is made to trick our minds that this flat 2D drawing is actually three-dimensional. So our brains starts to thing about the walls as shape we can "go around", and that can have things behind them. And as such, it is easy to think that I could just place a light source behind a wall and let it shine out from behind it. Unfortunately, this isn't possible. No matter ho much our brains are fooled, it is still a 2D-drawing, and CC3+ aren't fooled. Where we see the top of the wall meeting the side of the wall at a 90 degree angle, CC3+ only sees two polygons side by side, and what we perceive as rectangles with 90-degree corners, CC3+ sees as a Rhombus with 60 degree and 120 degree corners. Thus, there isn't a "wall" to hide the light behind, it is only a flat polygon that would just completely block it. The geometric designs of such a map also means that the walls won't block light the same way as we would expect either, so relying on entities to block the light is much more problematic than in a standard top down dungeon map.
      stage 5.jpg
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2020
     
    Overall too dark for me. Bring back the sun - or at least dawn. Living in the land of the Midnight Sun (ie night all day in winter) is NO excuse, you Viking!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2020
     
    It is a bit dark, but that may be just the way it is.

    Otherwise a brilliant model/map :D
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2020
     
    Oooooh i LIKE where this is going. The lore of Dreadlock Valley is pretty dark so I think this is coming along deliciously devious
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2020 edited
     
    Here is an updated version. I am nearing the final product here, mostly minor tweaking and detail work remaining. I want it to be a little dark, but I've made it a little lighter. I did notice that your monitor settings matter a lot when the map gets a bit dark. The map from my previous post looks very nice on my main and secondary monitors, but on the tertiary one, that is another make and model, it does indeed look too dark.
    I trust the coloring much more on my primary and secondary monitors though, as they are expensive Eizo monitors designed for graphical work.

    You'll find a high-resolution version of the map here.


    Below are a couple of images from the map.

    1. The full map
    stage 6.jpg


    2. The keep
    stage 6a.jpg


    3. Closeup of the keep entrance
    stage 6b.jpg
  5.  
    Nice work Monsen!
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2020
     
    Wondrous. the lighting is just right, IMHO
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2020
     
    Spot on :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2020 edited
     
    Some more detail work. Replaced the very plain stone texture used both for the broken wall segments and the battlements.

    For the broken wall pieces I used a darker texture that fits the wall better. It kind of hides all my hard work in making those holes, but it makes the hole itself look much better, and that's the entire point.

    For the battlements, I experimented with a bunch of different textures, but I found that it looked rather horrible once it became too busy, so I went with a simpler cracked texture rather than more elaborate stones that I have used for the rest of the walls.

    Also added some fallen roof beams to the collapsed insides.


    This may also be a bit difficult to pick up because of the perspective, but the keep is 4 floors tall (towers are about 6), the two bottom floors are intact, the collapsed section is the two topmost floors. And of course, there is a basement below the thing, hiding all kinds of nice horrors (and treasure, if the GM feels particularly generous).
      stage 7.jpg
      stage 7a.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2020
     
    Oh i love the fill of the battlements!!
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2020
     
    I have to admit, until the last one, even though you said it, I couldn't see that part of the roof had collapsed. I kept puzzling why the interior had such a weird shape to it.

    Nicely done!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2020
     
    Excellent map, Remy! :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2020 edited
     
    Here's the beginning of the dungeon beneath the castle. Not sure how much time I will spend on this one (certainly not as much as on the keep itself).

    Click image for high resolution version

    Araneae Keep Dungeon small.JPG



    I actually used the keep in my game this weekend, having it inhabited by a powerful Aranea (spider/humanoid shapeshifter). She has been extorting tribute from a nearby village in return for protecting them from the dangers of the land. Of course, the threats she protect them from are real, but they are left at the very edge of existence, with minimal food and resources. Something especially the Paladin of the party don't care much for. Ended the session with a cliffhanger, they are in her throne room (in the dungeon below the keep), and after talking with her, things are just about to go to combat.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2020
     
    Two maps for the price of one! :D

    It's good to see some of the older symbols being used.

    Interesting that you use a wall shadow in the dungeon rather than a glow effect to sink the floors - not that there is a right or wrong way of doing it. It just looks a bit strange after I've seen so many dungeon's with dark glows sinking the floors in.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2020
     
    Well, for that map, I haven't tweaked effects yet, they're all using the defaults for now.

    But I've always enjoyed using wall shadows though. It is not really logical from a lighting point of view, but I still like the aesthetics. I'll see what I do for the final version.

    As for realism, don't look to close on the shadows and shades in the perspectives map either. I've used shadows in a lot of places to highlight features, like ruined walls, and things sticking out from the walls below, and I've focused on enhancing the features rather than accuracy, so from a lighting point of view, there are a couple of things in there that contradict each other.
  6.  
    I just have to say, looking at these maps and reading the discussion about them has taught me a bunch, so thank you all! ;-)

    These are awesome dungeon maps Remy!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2020
     
    You know me, Remy - I use sheet effects for all kinds of things they were never designed to do :P
  7.  
    I'd recommend blurring the outside stone wall of the dungeon a bit. The pattern of the bitmap fill is too repetitive. It needs to be obscured or broken up somehow.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2020
     
    Yea, the outer walls look way to busy the way they look now. Here is a quieter version.
      Araneae Keep Dungeon small2.JPG
  8.  
    Much better! Another issue: interior walls that aren't exposed to external light should probably be defined by a dark glow effect rather than a directional wall shadow. (Dungeon lighting is a whole topic in itself and others have covered it better than I ever could.) Finally the spider webs: just a visual effect to show age and abandonment or actual traps for players to encounter?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2020
     
    I often like to use wall shadows despite it being kind of illogical, because I feel it better conveys the feeling of a wall. I often use effects more to convey meaning rather than trying to be visually accurate (There are no lights down there at all, so technically it should just be a black square :) ).

    For the webs, I guess that is up to the GM. My players immediately started burning them upon discovering them, and since there was no reason this particular dungeon should be trapped, I just let them do that without any additional consequences.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 20th 2020
     
    How about a glow and a shadow to make it look even more like a wall - there being less light in the corner at the bottom of a wall?

    Otherwise, A beautiful map. I like the webs! No more burning webs, ok?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2020 edited
     
    If anyone is interested, I did a blog entry about how to create those ruined walls in Perspectives 3. There's even a video there if people prefer that format and can stand hearing me talking for 30 mins.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2020
     
    Brilliant! Thank you very much, Remy :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 27th 2020 edited
     
    Going to call this complete now I think. Added glow to the wall, and fixed up the shadows on the symbols to make things a bit more consistent.

    The main rooms in this dungeon are the prison, the tomb, the well room (which also handles the wine stores), the mystic ritual room with the 5 elemental pillars (decide for yourself why there are 5 elements), and the main storage room.
    The basement was originally segregated into different sections, each only available from the stairs of a single tower, but the walls have weakened over time, and they have now crumbled in several places, allowing access to the entire basement, which is helpful, since two of the stairs down have been lost under the collapse towers above.


    I've already implemented the keep into my own campaign and figured I'd keep the creature Lorelei named the keep after the main villain here as well. She has set up her throne room in the old store room (upper right). Her army/minions lives in the ruined keep above, where is also where things like kitchens, barracks and latrines are found.
      Araneae Keep Dungeon.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 28th 2020
     
    I think it looks much better again with that dark glow defining the walls :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 28th 2020 edited
     
    And since Scott made the wonderful Spider Island in the community atlas a few years ago, why not plop the keep down there. Seems to be a perfect fit.

    Araneae Keep
    Araneae Keep Dungeon
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeMay 28th 2020
     
    Perfect Nameless Ruins :)