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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2019 edited
     
    Hmmm. Yes, I can see the problem with the edges of a marsh. Until now I had been thinking only of the way the marsh would bind with existing meadow fills, not butting up to rivers and such. I may have to rethink this marsh thing altogether - maybe make symbols instead - little islands you can paste... Yes - more work.

    The trees have shadows on the original. Those are part of the symbol right now. And I forgot all about the green glow! LOL! That was from an earlier draft and got missed when I was editing effects.

    I have also carried out chain surveys at college - one quite notable occasion was when our tutor decided to take the group to Studland beach and do a chain survey of the beach profile in several places along the beach, on what turned out to be the hottest day of the year. The surface of the sand was 45 degrees C, and... he claimed he didn't know about this... it turned out to be a nudist hang out. So there we were, sweltering in our usual day clothes, and trying not to look at them while they were staring at us with open fascination. What were we doing? Why were we doing it?

    Ah yes... memories!

    But anyway - I digress. I decided to have a day off from working on that marsh fill and do some compasses instead. I looked at lots of 18th century compasses online and came up with this. (Sorry its a bit wide) They're quite simple, and there's nothing on the Ferraris map to copy, but I thought they might do for anyone wanting a pseudo-period compass to go with their map.

    a2.jpg
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2019
     
    And appropriate for the festive season too!

    Hadn't noticed the tree shadows on the map; interesting they'd added these as well.

    Ah, beach profile mapping... Weird time to be doing such though, Sue. Mine was done either in the early winter, usually with a gale and so much spray and snow you could neither see nor stand upright ("You mean the cliff-line was actually below sea level?"), or more rarely in early summer when the place was still deserted. Helps to be on the North Sea coast too, where going under-clad risks hypothermia even in midsummer - the water's peak late summer temperature is about 13°C...
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2019 edited
     
    I hadn't thought of compasses as being Christmassy, but I suppose they are if they happen to be 18th century style compasses. Most of them were star-shaped like these I've made. A lot of them were far more elaborate with fleur-de-lys and all kinds of designs drawn on the coloured parts, but I think that will have to be a project for a different day.

    Some of the cartographers just drew a horizontal line out from the base of the tree to the right, but some of them carefully painted little round shadows on every single last one of them. It's most noticeable in the orchards.

    We were also doing the biodiversity, which meant summer was the best time. You know the routine - put the metre square grid thing down on the ground and then identify, name, and work out the percentage coverage of all the plant and animal species in the square, then move another 5m along the laid out chain and do the same again, and so on all the way along the 400m section line... I seem to remember that once the nudists had cleared off for fear of getting a grid square plonked down on them we decided it really was far too hot, that we had discovered far too many red ant nests, and then went for a series of 'paddles' up to our necks in our undies to get rid of that itchy feeling that seeing ants in great numbers can give you.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2019
     
    I used to be able to recite the compass points names of 32 points. I've been told, last century and no idea how accurate the claim was, a helmsman in sailing days of yore had to know 64 named compass points.

    I see the one above has 32 named points.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2019
     
    So much easier these days, you only have to remember the numbers between 0 and 359. At least, those where the only one I needed last time I was at the helm of a ship (which admittedly is a long time ago, was back in my navy days [Which, contrary to the name of the service, was spent mostly on land])
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2019
     
    I have a hopeless memory. I had to double check I'd gotten each one right before moving onto the next one!

    I couldn't 'box the compass' if my life depended on it.
  1.  
    Regarding Red Light. It is very interesting. Roads on military map can be red/black/white (with black edges), red/white sections, and so on. Under Red light, they vanish.

    If you use a red permanent marker or red grease pencil to mark your route, they vanish too. If you use, oh, Yellow, it looks white. So black is your friend.

    Then we went to Blue Light because it was less likely to be seen with passive image intensifiers, so then what happens, the rivers/streams/water obstacles all vanish. Blue was also said to not mess with your night vision.

    I found it easier to find my tanks with blue interior light than with red interior light.

    Thermal sights don't help you read a map and I never quite got the hang of reading one with night vision goggles.

    All of which mostly has nothing to do with map reading.

    Incidentally Sue, I only really had to read a map on training exercises. I was in Desert Storm, but worked in a 5 ton expandable van in the Division Command Post where we had more room (and we had the maps mounted on panels that we velcroed on the back to stick them on the wall. That we could move sections as the battle moved. I didn't have to navigate the vehicle either, nor did I have my own map. But we did have GPS, which was fortunate. The Van was also air-conditioned, not for us but for the radios and computers. I didn't let anyone use the air till the war started. It was actually relatively cool and it rained a lot during the actual fight.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2019
     
    I really like the orange and green one - seems just right for this style
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2019
     
    Well, we seem to have successfully hijacked this thread away from Atlas Ferraris (I'm sure only temporarily!)

    If anyone's interested in pursuing the sailing aspect further, I came across this 2005 paper on the ResearchGate website (free PDF download), The Sailings: The Mathematics of Eighteenth Century Navigation in the American Colonies. There's a mention in that (page 4) that each of the 32 points of the compass could be further subdivided into quarters, which I suppose would give 128 directions. Whether they were always named - even to the full set of Sue's 32 - seems less certain from this description at least.

    Red light's used a lot in visual astronomy (and other places) where you still need to see what you're doing in the dark, because the dark-adapted eye is remarkably insensitive to red light. Blue light's a great way to destroy your night vision, however, because the dark-adapted eye is most sensitive to blue-green light, so I'm not sure who advised you about blue light Mike!

    I did a number of trials around twenty years ago for what kind of coloured star charts would work better using red light, because that was the point we were starting to put a lot of such items online. Previously, we'd relied on black-and-white charts, which of course work fine, but everybody wanted pretty colours for the Internet, charts which could be downloaded and printed-off for outdoor use at night. A mid-blue sky background with coloured star circles works quite well, as visual bright star colours are chiefly white, yellow or orange, which all continue to show sufficient contrast under dim red light in this case, though it was interesting to me to see the different intensities different shades would give at times. Also irritating when colours that looked good on-screen vanished under the red light, just as Mike described...
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2019
     
    About seeing things at night I remember reading an article about night policing, where one of the policewomen had discovered that instead of trying to see her ordinary notebook by whatever light was available it was far easier to use a pad of fluorescent paper and write on it in black.

    The orange and green one, Quenten, is the original. I chose those colours because the colour palette available to cartographers back then was decidedly rather limited - mainly ochre (reds, oranges, yellows) and various shades of green earth (clay coloured by iron oxide, magnesium, aluminium silicate, or potassium). Blue pigment was known by then, but it was still a very rare and rather expensive commodity because it was made by grinding lapis lazuli to dust. This, to me, explains why the water bodies on the Ferraris map are simply the bluest of the available and much cheaper greens. I am sure that if the cartographers had not been regarded as mere servants to the cause they might have been given the expensive lapis lazuli paint or ink to do the job, and we would have a much more colourful map today.

    However - as many artists eventually discover by accident, a limited palette is actually better to work with than one where you can pick from any imaginable shade. It is the reason the Ferraris map is so attractive - why it's colours feel so harmonious.

    Mike - the ability to read a map properly could one day save your life. It worries me quite a bit that so many people these days rely so heavily on their phone telling them they are 5 minutes walk from X, rather than bothering to look at a map before they set out so that they don't need the phone to nanny them like that. If half our communications satellites are fried by a solar flare one day they are the ones who will be completely lost with no idea of how to get to somewhere where they will at least know where they are.
  2.  
    Sue,

    Yes. My wife always laughs because when we set out on a cross country trip I get the paper maps out, fold them so the route is visible with the least manipulation, sometimes highlight the route, and update it. I also use the GPS, but mostly for convenience inside a city when trying to navigate the streets. For most trips, I don't need to use them, but I have been known to refer to them from time to time. But this is a lot different than reading the map in a military operation where you are not necessarily on a road.

    I was wondering why all the water looked green to me on the map samples you are using. Now I know. Interesting. I never knew that problem existed. Cool beans, as I say, some times.

    And now back to your excellent craftsmanship (womanship?)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019
     
    Map reading is much more fun than just being told where you are to within the nearest metre without even trying to work it out for yourself. Obviously it would be insane to cross the Atlantic without any modern navigation equipment, but I've done reasonably long voyages using traditional equipment. A sextant is an amazingly accurate piece of kit - as long as your time piece is equally accurate!

    Does anyone know if it's possible to make a compound bitmap symbol where different bitmap elements are on different sheets?

    It's one way I could cure the marsh problem highlighted by Wyvern.

    I can make little marsh islands as symbols, but because of the muddy border you wouldn't be able to paste them into groups of overlapping islands, unless... the muddy margin was an a sheet below the sheet where the island was being pasted.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: LoopysueDoes anyone know if it's possible to make a compound bitmap symbol where different bitmap elements are on different sheets?
    Yes. I was planning to talk about that in an upcoming blog article, but basically, what you need is to set the symbol option 'Convert Line Style Names to Sheets', and then assign different line styles to different entities in the symbol. When the symbol is placed, it will split into multiple symbols, the parts being placed on the sheets matching the line style name.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019
     
    Excellent!

    Thank you so much!

    I have no idea what you are talking about, but as long as it is possible I'm extremely happy.

    The marsh problem has been solved... or at least it will be :D

    Can I just create several copies of Solid and call the copies the relevant sheet names?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019
     
    Yes
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019 edited
     
    So I will be drawing the islands in CC3 using the fills I've made and the special lines, then creating them by using Define Symbol? And I'm to look out for that checkbox?

    Some of the reeds around the edge are already symbols. Does that matter? Or should I leave them out and ask users to place them manually after the marsh islands have been pasted?

    EDIT: Actually, I will have to leave them out or they will appear in odd places where the islands may be pasted overlapping each other.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019
     
    You'll find the option in the symbol options in the symbol manager after defining the symbol.
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019
     
    Interesting about the green-blue water Sue, though maybe they could have used Prussian Blue (available from circa 1724), or possibly Azurite (an important medieval blue pigment, but which fell out of favour after Prussian Blue came in). Ultramarine from lapis lazuli is though a far superior blue!

    If you need some examples of multi-sheet symbols to see better how actual ones operate, I recall the hill symbols from the very first Annual issue, the Mercator style, were of this kind - probably many others besides, but they're the ones I remember, because I spent ages playing around with the sheet effects with these very early on in my CC3 Learning Time (i.e. before CC3+ appeared!).
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019 edited
     
    Thanks again, Remy :) I will experiment later today and see what I can come up with.

    Wyvern - It's not very obvious from the little swatches on those two webpages (especially since the lapis swatch looks just as green as they do) but Prussian and Azurite blues are both fairly green, and only look bluish at maximum concentrations - Azurite in particular is pretty much what I would call blue-green compared to lapis, and just seems to go greener as you dilute it for the kind of colour wash you would need to do on a map like this. Looking at the original map I would say that the materials budget was probably not large enough to afford lapis/ultramarine, though you may be right about the Azurite where the map is at it's bluest.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019
     
    Technical question here.

    If I have two instances of CC3 open at the same time and I'm working on both of them, what happens when they respectively autosave? Do they alternately overwrite each other's autosave file?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019
     
    Yes.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2019
     
    Ah.

    I see what has happened then.

    Thanks Remy :)

    (Don't worry - I crashed and lost the new marsh symbol experimental file, not the example map)
    • CommentAuthorJMunsonII
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2019
     
    All the technical things aside, this is just beautiful work to look at! :D
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2019
     
    Thank you, Jon! :D
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019 edited
     
    Ok. I'm going with a new fantasy example of the style. So, starting from scratch this is the coastal village of Greythorne (or it will be) The area is deliberately exactly 1 square mile. The grid is set to 528ft (one tenth of a mile). The setting is a country on the coast of a late medieval continent not a lot unlike Europe, so there are still marshes and forests around, while there are also plenty of roads and good access.

    Here I have sketched the layout in black on a sheet called SKETCH, and labelled the areas. I've drawn the river, the roads and the contours. Much is yet to be done, but I'm hoping to make this look very much like one of the Ferraris maps.

    Oh, the roads are temporarily really pale. That is so that I can see them against the paper background. When I'm done they will be the same colour as the background ;)

    The Village of Greythorne 2.JPG
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019
     
    Looks like a good method of putting it all together with symbols and fills.
    • CommentAuthorJMunsonII
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019
     
    :O
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019
     
    Can't wait to see another Mousekins Production, from Loopy Tunes
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019
     
    Thanks guys! :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019 edited
     
    Not done very much more, but I've had other stuff interrupting the process throughout the day. I still managed to set up the dyke sheets and build a fort without having to create a new symbol. Also added a bit more relief.

    The Village of Greythorne 3.JPG

    The Village of Greythorne 3 closer.JPG

    I think the effects need a bit more work on these two things, but not bad for a messed up day.
    • CommentAuthorJMunsonII
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019
     
    <3
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019
     
    Oh Sue...this is all so wonderful! I finally finished reading through all six pages of this thread and I find that following along with your work flow is exciting. This will be a great annual or add on. Bravo!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019
     
    Thanks again, Jon :)

    Shessar! 6 pages? My goodness, I had no idea it was so long, but I can see that you are right. Thank you very much :D I hope it will all work out ok on the night. I was getting a bit muddled up with all the different aspects and not knowing what to sort out first, but with this new example I can include most of the fills and symbols in one map, which wasn't possible with St Denis.

    Tomorrow I hope to get going with the village and maybe some of the terrain fills.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019
     
    I am going to do St Mary's in the Scilly islands in this style - I remember vividly a wonderful 6 days there in 1993.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019
     
    It's probably a good job that I've figured out the water textures pretty well, then ;)

    You will have to do a very large map. Overland wasn't big enough, so this is city scale - one unit per foot. Greythorne is a mile square, so its 5,280 feet/units square. I don't know how large the Scilly Isles are, but you might have to do several adjacent maps. St Denis isn't even a mile square, but the sheer number of bush symbols in the hedgerows means its not the fastest map on Earth.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2019
     
    Outstanding work on the Star Fort. I have a goal of visiting all the coastal fortifications in the United States from Galveston Island, TX to Maine.

    Thus far I have completed TX, GA, and SC. I have 2 or 3 to go in FL.

    If I was rich, I build a house, then surround it with a star fort, just for fun. Complete with moat. Since I'm a Florida Boy, I could put gators in it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    LOL. I could ship over some Aussie native fauna and flora to help in the defences.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    Thanks Mike :)

    I'm more 'into' traditional British castles - not many of which have those star-shaped defences. But since the Ferraris map is totally covered in them I had to give it a try (and make a couple more sheets to make it possible)

    I doubt anyone would need a castle in Australia. Just clear a space at the heart of the nearest wild thicket and make dinner and polite conversation while the enemy died trying to get there.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    LOL
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    I didn't do the wall on the top ramparts right. It should have followed the edge of the rampart. So here it is again, and with hopefully better/more authentic looking sheet effects.
      The Village of Greythorne 4 fort.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    Something looks a bit off with the shape of that top rampart, but I'm not too bothered because none of the ones on the Ferraris map are perfectly symmetrical either ;)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    Remy? What is a .dtm file?

    I have these files in the drawtools folder for the Ferraris style.

    Are they like a sort of backup file where I've edited the drawing tool, or is it the macro being stored separately?
      a question.png
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    The latter. You can open them up in notepad or any text editor to edit the macro.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    Thank you :)

    I've now got so many different tools that I'm renaming them to group them together and make it easier to find the one that you want. I'm adding different prefixes, like "Terrain...", "Water..." and "Garden...". So I will rename all the macro files exactly the same way - the same as the drawing tools they are for, but with the dtm instead of the dto.

    Is there a limit to how long a name can be? I'm trying to keep them as short as possible so they can be read in the display, but at the same time I don't want to use too many abbreviations.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    Looks like 64 characters is the limit.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    Oh I don't think I've got any that are quite as long as that! :P

    Thanks, Remy :)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019 edited
     
    Those star-like forts were due to improvements in cannon. High walled castled were easily broken into with cannon. But these type of forts on this map could resist cannon fire much easier.

    And since those same walls were sloped, that helped in the defense as well.

    Of course, when more modern artillery came in, these forts could be taken down as well.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    Yes I'd heard that rationale before now. It's probably because most of the UK castles are actually medieval (pre gun) and around 600-1000 years old, while those in Belgium tend to be more recent.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019
     
    I lied. I didn't do anything to the village, but I got distracted an set about converting the dune fills into backgrounds and dune symbols instead. Here is the result.
      The Village of Greythorne 4.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2019 edited
     
    Yes - pretty jagged line down the west edge of that marsh, but this is still only a draft.

    The marsh is a drawing tool that creates the islands all in one go. The little plants on the edge have to be pasted by hand. But it's quite good fun. (Well, it was for me)

    'Things to do' are myriad, but I think the next job will be the village.