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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2019 edited
     
    Thank you, Roy and Jim :)

    I hope it doesn't disappoint when its done.
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2019
     
    Sue, the only things I can see about the deciduous trees compared to the original maps are very marginal shape differences - some have slightly more pointed tips or fractionally more rounded bases (so giving less of the impression of a "trunk-stalk," if you follow me). These are VERY minor points though.

    What did strike me is the deciduous trees and floor cover are slightly more blue in shade than on the Ferraris maps (or at least those random ones I did a quick comparison check with just now). The originals seem to trend more on the mid-yellow green shades, but it isn't always so clear-cut, even on different areas of the same maps.

    It's looking good to me too though at this stage!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2019
     
    I'm just going through a major redesign of the whole tree thing, Wyvern. Great minds think alike. I'm looking at the isolated trees on the map and thinking... they look much better than the ones hurriedly scrawled to fill a vast forest. And then I'm thinking... how close does this have to be to the original? Surely there is room to make the forest fills a little less like lollipops, as long as I don't make it too obvious!

    I'm also looking at the colours of the several samples of forest I have taken over the last few weeks, and I can see what you mean about the precise shade of green. It might surprise you, though, that there are deciduous forests show much more blue than mine. I can ratchet it back towards a warmer green, though ;)
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2019
     
    Yeah, given I was typing a comment based on quickly checking half-a-dozen obvious woodlands on maybe three out of the 275 maps, I was sure you'd have a far better idea than me about the overall forest colours! The various tree shapes are a bit easier to examine so rapidly.

    I've also been concerned that some of the colours have obviously changed/faded (sometimes in patches only) over time, from my previous Ferraris map examinations, which just adds an extra degree of complexity.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2019
     
    I don't think many people realise just how complex it is trying to find an average for every single fill symbol and colour since forests may be lime green or deep Veridian, but be clearly the same thing by the nature of the symbols. I am probably a long way out on some of them, but as long as it looks kind of similar it should look something like the Ferraris map.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2019 edited
     
    I'm making some progress with the surprisingly complicated parkland fill. This is about half done (mine on the right)

    a.jpg
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2019
     
    Dynamic! Now I understand your post back to my comment. I didn't see the Red letters next to Park and Garden, partly because I'm color blind and partly because I was oriented on the drawings. I really like your modernization of the fill. It looks much more vibrant.

    Mike
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2019
     
    Thank you, Mike! That's very kind of you. However, I will try to get it to look more authentic before I'm done with it. The background is definitely too yellow, which was caused by having to change the colour to prevent transparency acne when the fill was placed on top of the standard background paper. That's when the top fill develops holes because the rendering engine gets a bit confused when you lay the same thing on top of itself. It's gone too yellow, though, so I will have to sort that out. Then there are the colour splodges - too big, and no greens in them yet. When I get those two right I'm hoping it will look reasonably good.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2019
     
    Wowsers ! Looking forward to this !
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2019
     
    Thank you, Jim :)
  1.  
    I've been lurking on this thread, just watching the progression. I have to say, it's super cool to watch you apply your talent to this project! Not only is the art great, but to be able to see the process is really fun. So I just wanted to say thanks not only for putting this style together but also for putting up this thread so we can watch it come to life.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019
     
    Aw thank you, Maidhe :)

    I should confess a hidden agenda! Feedback helps to guide progress. It's like audience participation. If everyone screams 'NO!' at me I find another way ;)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019 edited
     
    For instance, following some very polite suggestions both here and over at the FB Group page I have modified these fills. The heath now has its own linework texture instead of sharing the Meadow linework, and the trees and forests have been updated to look more like the ones on the better parts of the map - lighter backgrounds and fractionally more detailed trees.

    a2.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019 edited
     
    And though part of me regrets it, I had to re-draw the Pasture texture because it was shouting more loudly from the map than any of the other fills. I've also done a first draft of the Vineyard fill, and generated a blank green background to paste orchard trees on for the orchard fill. The orchard fill is the odd one out here since it is a combination of fill and symbols. Since orchards only make up a relatively small part of the landscape in most maps I though it would be easier to orientate the rows and decide how many there should be by hand, rather than having any alignment issues with decapitated trees down one side of the field, etc.

    I rather suspect the vineyard fill (while an absolute match for the specimen I took from the original Ferraris map) may be a little on the dark side compared to the rest of the set.

    Comments and suggestions welcome :)

    b.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019
     
    This is beautiful. The old cartographers would have been proud of you.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019
     
    Have you tried using Symbols in Area instead of fills for some of these btw? That is also doable using a macro tool, and it allows you to randomize the symbol placement and still use a fill for the background.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: MonsenThis is beautiful. The old cartographers would have been proud of you.

    *Blush*

    Thank you very much, Remy! :D

    It is a lot easier for me than it was for them. I don't have to work with the natural inconsistencies and absorbency of rag paper (even the best quality was nowhere near as good as modern art paper), and they never had copy, paste, and CTRL+Z

    Posted By: MonsenHave you tried using Symbols in Area instead of fills for some of these btw? That is also doable using a macro tool, and it allows you to randomize the symbol placement and still use a fill for the background.

    No I hadn't! What a brilliant idea :)

    I will try that later, when I've finished the Parkland fill.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019
     
    Posted By: LoopysueIt is a lot easier for me than it was for them.
    Easier, yes. But that still doesn't belittle the fact regarding how much time and effort you spend lovingly recreating their work.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019
     
    I love their work :)

    I always wanted to be a traditional cartographer, but I would have needed to have been born male and about 250 years earlier than I was to have taken part in project like this.

    Just so I know for sure that I've shown all the fills (I think I forgot to show the Peat bog for a start), here is a compilation of several screen shots showing the 33 I've done all together as they are right now.

    Sorry about the gap in the middle of the fourth row. I missed a bit!
      fills.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019
     
    In case anyone is wondering why the Arable fields and the vegetable gardens have a white background, this is because they would have had a paper background, except that placing paper on paper on different sheets when there is an Edge Fade Inner sheet effect on the upper one can confuse the rendering engine and cause what we call 'Transparency Acne', which are apparent 'holes' in the upper fill. To avoid this issue these fills are used on sheets with a Blend Mode set to Multiply. This removes all the white from the fill and leaves only the coloured parts set on the background paper texture.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019 edited
     
    As I see it, once the Parkland fill is done I have only the Freshwater marsh and the Pleasure gardens to do (and I think the pleasure gardens are more of a coloured polygon thing than a fill). After that its the symbols. I'm looking forward to that bit now I've got my drawing hand in tune :)

    I haven't ruled out attempting a Coppiced woodland fill. I will have a think about it - another look to see if I can pick out any details that will make it significantly different to the Woodland scrub fill.

    All suggestions and analysis welcome :)
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019
     
    Sue, appreciating that this may well be accurate to the original, but the Parkland fill looks rather cluttered compared to the other woodland and grassland, etc., options. At its current scale, the trees look smaller and not quite so "stalky" - i.e. with long, bare trunks - as I'd half-thought they might from the previous key samples. It almost seems as if it's shown to a different scaling to the other fills here.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019 edited
     
    You're right :)

    The Parkland fill is a tricky one. Here are a few extracts that show just how variable the texture is on the original. All these have been screen shot at the maximum zoom, so they are directly comparable in scale.

    12.jpg
    22.jpg
    3.jpg
    4.jpg
    5.jpg
    6.jpg
    7.jpg
    8.jpg
    9.jpg

    Here is the example from the second key

    Key - Agricultural - park.png

    And the one I am working from (which I found myself on the Ferraris map)

    Key - MINE - Parkland.png

    As you can see, some of the examples have trees of similar size to the trees beyond the parkland, and some are much smaller.

    I think the last two shots show something that is more comprehendible as a parkland than some of the others, but unfortunately I did not capture any of the surrounding trees in the example I found and can't remember which of the nearly 300 maps I got it from.

    I am currently experimenting with a less geometric arrangement of the trees, so I might as well experiment with different sizes too.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019 edited
     
    Found the original untrimmed sample I took, and it looks like the trees in that section are generally a little smaller than in other places because the parkland trees are about the same size as the small trees I prepared for the orchard fills and lines of trees. They are not as large as the trees of the Deciduous forest, but that was expected. Those are the largest trees on the map if you don't count the lovely (and much better drawn) isolated trees and bushes that seem to have been the way each cartographer secretly 'signed' his piece.

    10.jpg

    There also seems to be a huge range of scale apparent if you look closely at the smaller geometric bits of the pattern near the bottom of the sample. Maybe I need to do "Parkland large" and "Parkland small", since they are so drastically different.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019
     
    This is the second draft, in which I have enlarged the trees to be comparable with the small trees (slightly smaller than the forest trees), and made the arrangement more random in nature.

    In this screen shot you see the extract I'm working from on the left, my version on the right, and the relative size of the current Deciduous forest fill for a comparison of tree size.
      aa.jpg
    • CommentAuthorBarliman
    • CommentTimeNov 29th 2019
     
    This is going to be a gorgeous style when you're done.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2019
     
    :D

    Thank you, Barliman!

    Nice to see you around again :)
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2019
     
    Thanks very much, Sue. I hunted around on a few maps randomly picked, but couldn't find any suitable Parkland samples to cite as comparisons; hence I didn't...

    It looks as if the only defining feature is actually that "grainy" background texture, given quite a few seem to have trees no different to the "usual" woodland styles found elsewhere. Presumably, each cartographer just drew what they felt like at the time, or maybe forgot the Parkland trees were meant to look different. Then again, as I mentioned a while back, maybe they were simply trying to draw something similar to what was really there, and that was genuinely different in different parklands.

    Maybe instead of trying to do Parkland fills at two different scales, you could do one with the trees and one without, so people could add individual trees or tree groups as necessary for the smaller areas? (Or indeed for larger ones if a specific formal layout was required.) This also assumes suitably various of the trees/tree groups will be available separately as symbols, of course.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2019
     
    LOL! Wyvern - I have tree symbols coming out of my ears at this end. One of the issues I've had (which is still slightly apparent in that tiny enlarged snippet of the Deciduous forest fill shown above) is trying to keep the linework consistent between different pieces. The ground lines in that fill are semi-transparent on the background green to match all the other ground fills. I decided to do this with the ground textures because the lines were too heavy on the example map. This worked nicely... until I started pasting tree symbols onto the fill with their 100% opacity outlines. Now I need to go back and reduce those outlines to make them look like they were drawn at the same time as the lines on the ground underneath the trees.

    Well, there's still a lot of work to do, but it won't be too much bother to add a Parkland background fill to the set. Though I have to be careful here, since all these fills (with the exception of the Arable ones) are 3000 px fills to cope with the rather odd scale this map is compared with the standard city scale template its on. Now I can reduce the number of colours to 64k (instead of however many millions of colours full colour is) without damaging their appearance, all 33+ fills come to around 300MB. Its ok right now, but I'd better not do too many more or you will be bashing me over the head about the download size.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2019 edited
     
    I've tried to jiggle the legend into a more reasonable shape than thin and extremely long. Its a bit easier to see how far I've got with it all now. All bar one of the fills are done - the Marsh fill. That is, they are done except if anyone thinks they look wrong in any way.

    Once I've got the Marsh fill sorted out I will move onto the symbols.

    Key.JPG
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2019
     
    Looking great Sue!

    Have you devised a specific new Footpath line-style (i.e. one that will actually stay as clear dots for once), or is it just a variant on the existing dotted/broken line drawing tools (so it's in the lap of the gods whether it stays like how it's meant to look or not)?

    For the two Road styles (not the Sunken one), the Unpaved one seems to me to stand out better than the Paved one, but I realise you may be constrained by the original for what's possible with these.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2019
     
    Thanks :)

    That's a standard dashed line. I've rounded the corners on it by using very short dashes (1:9 with the gaps) and adding an outer glow as wide as the dashes themselves. The way an outer glow works it automatically rounds the corners off, and if the dash is only as long as it is wide the square block becomes a circle.

    And you are right - the road styles are dictated by the original. I really don't like the dark stroke down the side of the track, but since I've had the privilege of choosing between all the different individual styles for everything else I'll stay faithful on the basic law that all unpaved roads need to have one. However, remember that there is no reason that you have to stick with that rule once you start to map. It will be easy to use only the paved roads and just vary the width of the line to indicate a different state ;)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2019 edited
     
    I'm not completely happy with this one because it just doesn't feel right, but here is a sample of the first draft of the final texture - the marsh fill.

    Marsh sample.jpg
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2019
     
    I rather like it. See my FB page for a message for you. 3:)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2019
     
    Thank you, Quenten :)

    Can't see any messages, sorry!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago edited
     
    Well, this is the second draft.

    Better? Worse?

    a.png
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Better, in the sense of 'cleaner', but the shadow around the water, and the yellow murky shading not present whereas it is in the original and your first draft. So on balance, I think the first is truer to the map, and pretty good anyway.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    I hate the really ugly reeds I drew in that first one.

    Bad news - I hated it so much it no longer exists.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    i agree the reeds are much better. But the water needs more of the yellow murky at least (IMO - you are a much much better artist than me, so take IMO with however much salt you need)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Oh that's just a colour thing. I can do that again no problem. It was the inking I didn't get anywhere near right the first time around, but I'm quite pleased with the new reeds I did. The other bit of the inking - the grassy tufts - have to be like that to stay with the style of the previously drawn pasture texture. There are about a million very scratchy horizontal lines to be drawn yet under the reeds, but I can't seem to get any of my digital pens to imitate a scratchy old quill.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    You are exaggerating Sue, there are only 783,913 lines.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    However many, they aren't looking so great at the moment. I'm having a few issues with my drawing tablet creating jolts in things that I never drew in them when I draw anything faster than a snail's pace. This could take several more days to get right.
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Sue, I'm a little hazy here as to exactly what the Marsh fill is. I'd thought it was probably just the water and brown reedy shoreline being drawn over a stretch of pasture, but your comment about the grassy tufts having to match the pasture suggests it's actually the whole thing as shown in your sample square swatches - blue water, brown shoreline and green land. Is that right?

    Your newer sample certainly seems a lot closer to that comparison piece from the original map, though as we've commented repeatedly before, I imagine there's quite a range of variants on others of the Ferraris maps.

    For the "scratchy old quill" lines, fiddling about with GIMP at times, I've sometimes found using the eraser option with a smaller line thickness applied to the edges of previously-drawn black lines can sometimes give a modest impression of this effect. It can be hit and miss though, and would entail a lot of work to try something similar for what you need (I'm guessing a drawing tablet would be essentially a superior mechanism than GIMP in making this suggestion!).
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    The marsh fill is as seen in the example for the most part, though there are as you suspected a lot of variations. That example is one of the most detailed I could find. There is also a huge range of scales - some of the marshes being barely recognisable by way of being so tiny that all you can really see is the dark squiggly bit that is the marginal mud around the reeds.

    However, It is a fill in its own right because there are clearly defined borders between this conglomerate fill and anything else around it. I think the reason it is so hard to envisage using this as an actual fill is because we are just used to textures having much smaller internal details than this one does. As you can see from the image below there is a repeating pattern, but hopefully it won't be too distracting because I've contorted it a whole lot more than is apparent on the map.

    Though it is a good idea to use an eraser for the scratchy lines it would be impractical to do so for this piece. You have, however, given me an idea about using one of the filters in Krita to knock out random parts of these little lines - thanks :)
      marsh.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Maybe I will do another version with a smaller scale after I have finished this one, but I don't know yet. I need to make a new example map to be able to use all the fills in context together to see if they really work with each other. There are only a very small number of all the available fills used in the St Denis map.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime6 days ago edited
     
    Other things are happening with the Ferraris style.

    Imagine a map carefully drawn 250 years ago and used by Napoleon's generals out in the field of battle. Some parts were never used and were stowed away very carefully in the dark and have gone yellow with age, but they are still relatively clean (1). Then there are the parts that were used and got dirty, but the yellowing of the paper was balanced by the bleaching effect of being exposed to daylight (2). Then there are the parts that were used but then put up on display for many years as some rich man's dinner talking point. These are dirty from the field of battle, but they are also quite badly faded and looking rather blue (3).

    All these renders are from the same example map, but with different effects (and an additional dirt sheet).

    Annual Ferraris Style.JPG
  2.  
    Hah. I love this. I still have my 1:10000 scale map of Germany I used as an LT in the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. There are some parts which are almost pristine and others where the map is almost worn through with use. You haven't lived until you have had to take your map out of your map case, refold it, put it back in, then place new operational graphics on it. In a rain or sleet storm. In a tank. At night. With the wind blowing. And you can only use red light. The map when totally unfolded was the size of my living room. The map case was only about 1.5 meters square.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Thanks, Mike :)

    I haven't ever been on a battle field, but I had to explain why the original we can view online is so highly variable in colour and quality. I may not have taken these effects far enough, but I am certain that everyone will be able to build on the basics that will be in the annual ;)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    I tried reading, not in battle, to read cable color codes under red light and was told to stop wasting my time.
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Thanks for those Marsh updates Sue - and to know I may have helped a tiny bit with the scratchy lines...

    I'd guessed the complete Marsh fill would have to be what we'd call in other contexts geomorphic to get the water channels to match up edge to edge, but it's nice to see how you've achieved that. Looking at some of the samples you've shown (or that featured in the key sample swatches previously), it's obvious how problematic coming up with a "compromise" version will have been, and I think you've done pretty darned well with it!

    Presumably, if someone wished to recreate that "braided stream marsh" look shown in your most recent CC3+ Ferraris Legend graphic earlier in this topic (posted five days before this note), it would be possible to do so manually by superimposing stream lines onto some pasture fill, then adding brown-mud edges (I don't think that sample swatch showed any reed symbols, but I imagine these could be added by hand if required too). Clearly this would be quite a bit of work, but it would add much flexibility to the whole (for river deltas, for instance), without preventing quicker marsh drawing using your standard Marsh fill.

    Weird to see the "lollipop" tree symbols with such nice sharp shadows (and a green glow around them) on your recent 1-2-3 map-weathering sample! Not effects intended for the final maps, I'd expect...

    Mike's comments took me back to my geology field mapping days - paper maps outdoors in all weathers with pencil scribbles all over them that later had to be translated into something Usable By Others. Plus without the precipitation problems, also quite similar to field mapping of meteor (= shooting-star) tracks onto gnomonic projection star maps at night (same red light to avoid losing your dark adaptation, but needing clear skies, so only rarely raining - yes, that is possible, unfortunately, especially when there are gales...).