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    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019 edited
     
    Hey all. I am looking for advice...in particular from those of you that are comfortable doing cities and advising on building them. I was graciously gifted the responsibility, by our very own modern day DaVinci Sue, of completing Sanctuary as she has much on her plate right now getting her Patreon going (I am so looking forward to the assets she will be providing us!!!!) and other projects. You all know that I have repeatedly said I am not comfortable with cities, so I'm needing some help. I've working on completing a few of the districts that Sue had started and also have done a few of my own. Now, each district is a bit cultural in nature, but there are also buildings and areas that are very communal and civic, as well.
    So....where might I build a prison? Now, Sanctuary is a pretty peaceful city, with little crime, as everyone there is grateful for the "sanctuary" and safety it provides since it was settled when the lands were very wild with tribes and barbarians roaming the lands. However, crimes still happen. Within a district or perhaps just outside the city walls near the river?

    Also, cemeteries? In the city or out? Opinions?
      City of Sanctuary -City View very small2.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019 edited
     
    I can't remember where I planned the cemeteries, Lorelei. I don't think I got as far as that.

    How about making the prison underground - a large maze the baddies are doomed to wander? You could have people escape from time to time through the waterfalls maybe? (thinking of the story of the city)

    The outside of the wall was intended originally to be a huge shanty town, but the symbols for that sort of thing are currently a bit limited. Maybe some of it could be a large cemetery instead?

    Just ideas, though. Please don't feel limited by them ;)
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    Hmmm...maybe i can change the buildings next to The Forges and make that a prison with more cells and perhaps a prison mine underground.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    A prison mine, eh?

    Why not! Make them pay for their evil ways :P
    • CommentAuthorLadieStorm
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    A prison would probably be close to the city guard barracks. In fact, a dungeon prison would probably be built underneath the city guard's barracks... with the only 'known' entrance and exit being through the barracks. It would definitely be near the barracks, or perhaps the Magistrate.

    As for cemeteries… in a city that size, there would be more than one. A city that size would have at least 3 or 4 churches, and each one would have it's own cemetery. Then you would also have a secular cemetery... one that isn't associated with any church, probably where the paupers are buried... and it would probably be the largest one. All of them would be inside the city. I hope that helps!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    I don't know if the cemeteries would be inside the city unless it was a war torn state. But people are pretty peculiar about having to have their dead inside the walls I suppose. If it were up to me I'd not waste any space on them inside the walls. They don't need to be kept safe... do they?

    Our cemeteries are never in the heart of town. Always on the outskirts. They only end up in the heart of cities because the city outgrows the old boundaries.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    I just looked at London as an example, and confirmed that the cemeteries are all outside the old city boundary as it would have been back in the middle ages.
    • CommentAuthorLadieStorm
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    maybe they do it differently here in the States. Every cemetery I've ever seen has been attached to a church. And the churches are always inside the city...

    Now we do have city cemeteries that might be inside or outside city limits... But yes... the oldest of cemeteries are outside the 'old city', but usually end up inside the city, because the city grows around it. And in a city the size of what you all have here... there would be multiple cemeteries, mostly inside the city... because the city would have grown out around them. In fact... there would probably be some type of cemetery in each of the different cultural subdivisions... so that burial rituals would be followed according to that culture.
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    When I do cemeteries for my fantasy cities I almost always put them outside the city walls. Even if you wanted to put a church with a cemetery. If some evil cleric or demon is going to come by and raise the dead I'd rather have them outside the walls of the city... not to mention for sanitation purposes so there aren't a bunch of rotting corpses soaking into the ground of the city and possibly the water table.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    Maybe its because of the Black Death and the fear of having corpses so close to the living that our dead tend to be buried outside the settlement. In Weymouth where I grew up I lived in an old cemetery gatehouse for a little while - the dead never bothered me and the rent was cheap. This cemetery was right next door to the much older mass burial pits dating back to the Black Death in 1664-6. Until the Victorian era (the last 200 years) both these places lay firmly outside the town on the opposite shore of a small lake (now a bird reserve that cuts the town in two)

    The cemetery had a gatehouse (where I lived), and an absolutely tiny chapel at the centre of it that was big enough to lay out a single dead person so the family could pay their last respects before the burial. The church that stands outside the west wall of the cemetery on the furthest side from the mass burial pits must have stood in glorious isolation - being the furthest building from the rest of the town at the time it was built. Other churches were built in town, but they never had cemeteries attached to them.

    I think we have different living patterns, and I think these are caused by ingrained taboos caused by such horrors as the Black Death. The inconvenience of having to walk a couple of miles to visit that particular church was outweighed by the race-memory fear of the Black Death - which wiped over 1/3 of us out in what must have seemed like an apocalypse, or even the end of the world. The USA has never lived through a horror like that, so you are bound to have different practices where the dead are concerned (as well as far more space to build larger more sprawling settlements).
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    I'm pretty sure the reason most American cities have cemeteries connected with a church and not outside city walls is that most, if not all of American cities were built long after walls were necessary (the city walls of even New Amsterdam (NYC) are long gone and only marked by the infamous Wall Street)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    Good point! :)
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019 edited
     
    Okay....so for now, there is at least one prison. I think I'll do another just outside the walls near the culvert and the cemeteries outside the walls, as well. I'm trying to keep Sue's original intent and have only used her symbols and fills, so I shall have a challenge ahead of me making a cemetery!
      City of Sanctuary -Underground.PNG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2019
     
    Oh no! Please don't trap yourself inside the original concept!

    Do it how you want to do it.

    Love the new work there :D
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2019
     
    Thanks. I worked on this a lot last night. I really should be working on my homebrew campaign (the boat they are currently fighting undead on is taking them to a Masquerade Ball where I plan on revealing the Big Bad's master plan to them), but I suddenly got so caught up in this map I worked for a few more hours on it last night.

    I started on Kalimar. I'm not sure what you had in mind here....but I seem to think it has a bit of a middle eastern feel to it. I've decided to put a University there.
      City of Sanctuary -Kalimar.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2019
     
    Looking really great, Lorelei :)

    I think you may have the kind of patience I lack for the details!

    Looks like I might have left you with some tricky sheet effects the way some of those rooftops are bleaching!

    Alter or delete any you don't like. Just saying - do it your way ;)
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2019
     
    I like the look of the bleached rooftops :)
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2019 edited
     
    So my mini stay-cation got rained out. I many hours last night and a few more today working on this....
      City of Sanctuary -City View very small3.png
      City of Sanctuary -Underground2.PNG
      City of Sanctuary -Kalimar2.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2019
     
    Really love the new work, Lorelei! :D

    Never mind the broken laptop - I didn't and still don't have the patience to make each individual building different like that.

    Very nice work :D
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2019
     
    I LOVE the little mine shaft entrances! Superb :D
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2019
     
    I think some of the bits I did are probably a bit too plain now that I see what you are doing. I really don't mind if when you get closer to finishing it you decide to redevelop some of the more boring bits ;)
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2019
     
    Outer city just about complete - just have to add a few larger buildings and a few cemeteries
      City of Sanctuary - Lorelei Draft small version.png
    •  
      CommentAuthorMedio
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2019
     
    Love the map, love the colours. Love everything, keep on going!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2019
     
    Oh Indeed! Gorgeous work Lorelei :D
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2019
     
    Thanks. Things are starting to bog down my system some (i have to load the sheets with soooo many effects on them one at a time or it wont load - im sure it's all the houses in shanty town). So anyone wanting this map NEEDS to have a decent machine to handle it or it will never load. I wonder.... @Monsen can you have an .fcw in the atlas saved without the effects on so it will load easier??
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2019
     
    I can, but then you should ensure that viewing the map without effects makes sense, i.e. that it isn't just a blob of solid colors like many maps that rely on effects look like with them off. Needs to look like a map when people open it.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2019
     
    How about hiding the entire shanty town area by default by putting it on a layer called shanty town, and only showing it when ready to render it?
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2019
     
    I can try that. I may have to do that with the Bushes, Trees and Palms, too. There are quite a lot and still a bit more to go and it was working quite well until i worked on the outer city and surrounding fields.

    And, i forgot - it would be all blobs of polygons without the effects on so there's the answer to that.

    I REALLY hope i sorted out this map. Remy, i'm going to send it to you now. When you have a hot minute can you take a look? I was playing around when sue first sent this to me and of course, used some of Sue's trees i have on my system she shared with me long ago before she released them with PF. I am pretty sure i replaced all of those symbols with Sue's that can be accessed by those with her Annuals. If it's not right - let me know how to correct it and I'll try before i lay this mess at your feet. Or, i may have wasted A LOT of time enticing everyone with access to a map they may never get :(
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2019
     
    Don't worry, Lorelei. I'm sure its not as bad as you think :)

    What you could do is have it set up so that only the walled part of the city is visible on opening - nothing at all in the surrounding countryside - no trees or houses at all. People would just have to turn the layers on. As long as the layers are obviously named I don't see a problem with that.

    You could even hide the sheets with the fields on them - hiding quite a lot of the effects, if I remember correctly. And then there's the relief shading. That could be hidden on opening the file as well.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2019
     
    Posted By: LoopysueWhat you could do is have it set up so that only the walled part of the city is visible on opening - nothing at all in the surrounding countryside - no trees or houses at all. People would just have to turn the layers on. As long as the layers are obviously named I don't see a problem with that.
    I can add links in the navbar to toggle groups of layers for easy access.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2019
     
    Now there's a really great idea :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2019
     
    I have put whole areas of my city on separate layers (eg east inner city, south inner city, west inner city, castle, north city and outer city east and west) putting all buildings, trees etc on them, and hiding them all except the one I am working on. I keep the roads, walls and background fills, rivers and contours on though, and work with no effects - which still looks like the city, as Monsen has mentioned above.

    I have had very intermittent internet over the last 2-3 weeks, so now I can say how much in awe I am of the wonderful detail Lorelei has put into this city. Both Sue and Lorelei deserve the title of Queen of the Beautiful City Maps.
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2019
     
    I don't have a problem while i'm working on the map - i keep most of those sheets like the Relief Shading, etc. hidden. It's while trying to render a complete map like this for saving that bogs down - I'll get hung up if i don't load each sheet individually, rather than showing them all at once. I'll see what i can do with moving some stuff onto their own layer i can hide tonight after work. Thanks!

    And Quenten....Thanks dear friend, I learned from the BEST. If you don't think i've taken your cities apart with a fine tooth comb, you aren't as smart as I know you are!! LOL!!! I could NEVER have pulled this off without Sue's gorgeous landscape and layout and seeing how you've built up cities with your posts. There is plenty of room on the pedestal for three :)
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2019
     
    Almost there.... Just have to figure out my cemeteries and make some labeling changes. I'm in the process of making sure this map is workable in the Atlas since I've used some of my own symbols and fills in there. It's a BIG one so i'll keep all of the outer city hidden so it'll load, and then each layer can be unhidden and it should be fine (i hope)
      City of Sanctuary - Full City very small.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2019
     
    Outstanding!

    Its nearly complete - an incredible performance, Lorelei.

    I am so, so glad you accepted the challenge of working the second half of this map :D
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2019 edited
     
    Final version folks. I'm calling this done. I'm pretty sure I got this all set up right to be available in the Atlas and will be sending the ZIP, yest ZIP file to Remy. This map is HUGE. REALLY HUGE.
      City of Sanctuary - Full City very small2.png
      City of Sanctuary City View very small.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2019
     
    Beautiful work, Lorelei! :D

    I had feared that this one would end up in the graveyard of things I've never finished.

    Thank you so much! :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2019
     
    The City of sanctuary is now in the atlas. Thanks Sue and Lorelei for creating this masterpiece.

    For everyone wanting to use the .fcw, this is a rather heavy map, I recommend you have a somewhat powerfull computer, especially if you plan on turning on all the details (The image in the atlas shows the map with all the details on, but the fcw comes with the outer city turned off for faster loading, but this can easily be turned back on using the links in the navigation bar.
    Also note that it relies heavily on resources shipped with the atlas, so I recommend downloading the entire atlas and not this file individually, as you will probably just end up with a sea of red X'es.
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2019
     
    Might be worth mentioning this on the Sanctuary page of the Atlas as well. It's indeed a stunning map, as we'd expect from its creators, and I can imagine a lot of people might want to download it simply for the imagery, only to get frustrated when they have problems opening the FCW file.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2019
     
    Posted By: WyvernMight be worth mentioning this on the Sanctuary page of the Atlas as well
    The atlas site already mentions that whenever someone clicks the fcw button on any page. I can't easily add page-spesific texts.
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2019
     
    Lorelei and Sue, this is a beautiful map. Probably the best city map I've seen. Amazing work!

    Alas, my CPU usage hits 100% when I try to open it and never seems to get beyond the flashing between not responding and blank green work area. I gave up after 15 minutes.

    Still, I love the map and maybe someday I'll run on something other than a mid priced laptop and be able to open it. :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2019
     
    Posted By: ShessarAlas, my CPU usage hits 100% when I try to open it and never seems to get beyond the flashing between not responding and blank green work area. I gave up after 15 minutes.
    One thing I've found that seems to help me when that happen is to switch to a different window so CC3+ isn't the active application any more (Preferably a window on another screen so you don't hide CC3+ behind anything, you should also be able to simply make it inactive by clicking once on an empty area of the windows taskbar) and then just give it a short time (the time between two flashes)
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2019
     
    Yay! Remy to the rescue again! Thank you, thank you.

    Seriously, all I had to do was click over to my browser and it loaded instantly. The same with zooming in to an area. It took a bit longer but I was even able to load the full map. This is turning out to be a glorious day!
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2019
     
    Thank you, Shessar :)

    I found that going into the Task Manager and ending all unnecessary background processes (most notably, cortana and microsoft office click-to-run) frees up just enough memory to open the .fcw. Sorry! I had to go ahead and create each and every individual house and then use the random street tool for that huge outer city shanty town :/
    •  
      CommentAuthorMedio
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2019
     
    It´s an incredible job. Congratulations :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2019
     
    I think I am partly to blame here. There were already lots of sheets and sheet effects, not to mention all the Street houses in the southern third of the city when I passed the map to Lorelei. It was why I couldn't open it myself any more on my old laptop - the broken one.

    Oh, and then there were lots of hand-made domes - hundreds of shaded polygons. This was done before I created the City Domes set.
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2019
     
    Lorelei and Sue, there is certainly no need to apologize for this amazing map! I'm just happy to be able to open it. There are so many things in it that I want to reverse engineer. :D



    Posted By: LoreleiI found that going into the Task Manager and ending all unnecessary background processes (most notably, cortana and microsoft office click-to-run) frees up just enough memory to open the .fcw.


    I always stop all background apps from actively running using Settings>Privacy>Background Apps. In fact I turn off almost everything in Privacy. I don't want nosy, nosy Microsoft using my precious system resources. ;)