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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2018 edited
     
    Thank you, and you are correct! It is indeed St Basil's :)

    GIMP has done something really awful with their default colour palette settings. The way colours are presented in an app is part of the basic foundation - part of what the user expects to stay the same (bar a few very tiny tweaks), but this time the whole thing has completely changed. I don't understand it at all. It seems to consist of nothing but various shades of ghastly pink!

    The filters have also been altered, so that even though they have exactly the same name as last time, they do something completely different.

    For example, this is the basic map file I created for a conical roof. In the first image the layer is set to "Addition" mode the way it used to be, and in the second image its exactly the same layer but set to the new Addition mode. The red component of a CC3 map file dictates the direction that part of the roof is facing, so I was getting shadows on the light side of the roof as well as the shaded side because there was just too much red in the mix, and I just could not figure out why!

    Unfortunately, I now have too many files created by the new version of GIMP, so I can't really get rid of it.

    The other really annoying thing is the way the brushes are all messed up. I've marked the dropdown button you need to hit to get at the legacy filter modes with a solid round brush, but its all bitty and spattered everywhere.

    I used to do a lot of drawing in GIMP, but I've moved almost entirely over to Krita for all bitmap work, and just use GIMP where I need to have a nice crisp mask edge, since that is the only thing that Krita is really weak on.
      old.jpg
      new.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2018
     
    Fortunately, none of the map files for the Japanese Temples were generated in GIMP this way, or there would be serious problems with them. Those map files were all created in CC3 and rendered ready for use, using CC3's built in "Add" Blend Mode effect to add the red to the blue base (blue representing how steep the roof is). CC3's 'Add' does exactly the same thing as the legacy GIMP 'Addition'.
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2018
     
    Your comments echo those of my paper modelling colleagues regarding GIMP 2.10, Sue. Reviewing the discussion that went on on that other forum, I have the impression that a great many things were changed in this version of GIMP which probably shouldn't have been, making them harder to access or change (in some cases, apparently to the point of impossibility, or at least excessive frustration leading to that same result). Presumably, this was done to streamline the programming in some way, but as one commentator said, it makes it now unusable for all previous users, so this seems to rather defeat the purpose!

    And some folks complain that CC3 has a steep learning curve!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 2nd 2018
     
    Wyvern - The nice thing about being a multi-media mapper, is that when one app goes completely nuts like this its not so hard to move across to another one. Your friends might benefit from trying a few other apps. I suppose its like the old saying about eggs and baskets. I have a few eggs in lots of different baskets, so I can afford to drop one and just carry on with the others.

    Krita is quite different, but if what your friends do involves a lot of drawing it might be worth them having a look at it. Krita's only major weakness is the invisible 'haze' that usually results from erasing or masking the background by hand with a brush. Its not visible until you try using the symbol in CC3, and then you become painfully aware that the background is not as invisible as you thought you had made it. My workflow (once I figure out how to create CC3 type maps without using GIMP to generate all the smooth transition blue and red gradients for me) will be to use Krita for everything, and then just open the resulting png in GIMP to select alpha, sharpen the mask, invert and hit delete to get rid of that haze.

    I will eventually drop GIMP from my workflow completely. I just need something else that can give me a nice sharp mask to cut clean edges around things, and I'm already looking for it...
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018 edited
     
    Ok. I still have a problem with the map file, though its getting better than it was. The actual graphic has no shading at all, so every bit of the shading in the second screen shot is being produced by the map file.

    I have to admit that I'm not terribly good with Wilbur, and that I tried an alternative method of making the map file - by modelling it in Blender as a true 3D object, and attempting to get the shader for the object as close as possible to the parameters of a map file (range of blue and red).

    Blender model.jpg

    I also attempted to make it a varicolour symbol, with limited success.

    Varicolour problem.jpg

    I will continue to work on the shader, and believe I can get a better result than this for the shading, but I am completely at a loss as to why the paler colours in these varicolour impressions seem to lack any shading.

    The problem is most noticeable where the varied colour is either very pale, or very dark. The petals of the underlying graphic are all pale grey. If I make the ones that are going to be varicolour a mid tone grey, will that improve the situation? (I'm asking rather than doing any active research and looking things up because I've been working on this non stop for most of the day, and I really need to step away from the laptop right now...)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    Looks great to me !

    One thing I wouldn't mind, although it may be impossible, is a vari-color symbol that lets me set 2 vari-colors. Vari-color 1 and vari-color 2.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    Thanks Jim :)

    I don't think that's possible, unfortunately.

    I also don't think its possible to control the shading effects in the varicolour part of a varicolour roof symbol, but I had to ask.

    Maybe we will both be wrong :)
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    I have managed to avoid Blender for the most part over the years, so I can't really offer you any specific technical advice on how to do what I'm about to recommend:

    The lighting equation used in CC3+ for the map parts of symbols is pretty oversaturated, meaning that small details in the light map disappear entirely. Pushing the scaling factor for your normal higher to span a larger range of 0-255 for the map file. You can do this by scaling the Z (up) component of the normal before translating it to az/el angles, but make sure that you clamp the values into the range of 0 to 255 before writing them to the image.

    An easy way to feed this sort of model into Wilbur (should you want to add yet another tool into the chain) is to write the Z value of your model to an image, which will create a heightfield image. I definitely do understand the desire to avoid adding yet more tools into the mix, though.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    Thank you so much for helping me with this, Joe. I really wasn't expecting much help with the Blender side of things - so a double thank you.

    The blue shading is achieved in a much less technical way than a blend (which I could not get to behave correctly). I'm afraid I'm actually using a parallel light source directly above the object, and adjusting the exact blue of the material and the intensity of the light.

    The red shader isn't shown. I've had many more problems with that. It appears that when you use Add as a blend mode for an overlying texture (the red component), I have exactly the same problem as with the new GIMP blend mode - too much red too far around the cone.

    Its going to take a lot of tweaking! LOL!

    And I haven't even started to consider adding the final twist for the spiral fluting!

    I think it will be at least another day before I get this to a point where I can feel happy with the shading.

    As for the varicolour problem... I just don't know what to do about that.
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    There isn't any way to set multiple colors for varicolor symbols because there isn't any place to store that information in the drawing entities. Adding this feature would be a significant modification across the whole system and likely won't happen. I do agree that it would be fun to have, though.

    If you want varicolor and roof shading at the same time, try using the green channel of your map file as the indicator for varicolor rather than a separate varicolor file. Check "CD3 roof entities are varicolor" in your symbol definition to use this mode.
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    The image resulting from a light source directly above the model (that is, looking down the Z axis) should be giving you the Z component of the normal. Putting a light on the X axis will give you the X component of the normal, and one on the Y axis will give you the Y component. The angle (red channel) is a scaled variation atan2(y, x).

    It should be possible to pull apart the normal map directly in Blender, but you'd need to do a custom shader for that.

    https://blender.stackexchange.com/questions/1161/how-to-make-a-displacement-map-from-existing-3d-geometry describes a technique that will get you a heightmap from your model that Wilbur can process into a normal map.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    Ah. I think you might just have lost me at "atan2(y,x)"

    By pulling apart the normal map, do you mean "unwrap"? I've done that before, if that's what you mean. Its a devil of a job, but the results are always quite spectacular.

    Now that last suggestion is probably a really good idea. I think that when I've had something to eat I'll go and have a look at that.

    Thanks Joe :D
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    Oh - forgot!

    Joe - I used the green channel set to 1 for those coloured segments, so its the map file that isn't working all that well...

    I also checked Make symbol varicolour. Maybe I shouldn't have done that as well as checking the CD3 Roof entities are varicolour.
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    By "pulling apart" the normal map, I meant isolating the X, Y, and Z components of the normal vector at each point. The "atan2(y,x)" is an unfortunate notation for "angle between the point 0,0 and the point x,y" that I was reading out of the Wilbur code (it's what should go in the red channel for azimuth angle). The blue channel should also be representing an angle, so scaling it will be the tough part.

    I don't know for sure what the flags should be when using the green channel in the map for varicolor, but a quick look at the CD3 symbols should resolve that issue (I don't have the code in front of me right now, so I can't check what it actually does). If you're using the "CD3 Roof entities are varicolour" feature, you shouldn't be adding a separate varicolor map file as well.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018 edited
     
    How strange! I normally have trouble understanding the beautifully intricate things you say, but I do believe I'm starting to understand. At any rate, you've given me another idea about lighting tricks...

    There isn't a varicolour file. I didn't think it was possible to have a varicolour file as well as a map file, so I didn't make one. The actual image is just a pale grey daisy thing with no built in shading of its own at all.

    Currently, the map file looks like this (and here is where you will see for yourself that I still have some way to go before I get it right, because neither blue nor red are totally spot on). The green component is added in GIMP by masking the area I want to be varicolour and using the legacy form of "Addition" to add just 1 green to those parts.

    Map file.jpg

    And this is the image file. (Its grey rather than white because it was way out of gamut when I tried combining a white image with the map file. Everything bleached out)

    Image file.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    Tiny steps forward...

    Blue:

    I managed to perfect the blue shading by making the object glow fiercely with the lowest end of the blue range (128) to get rid of the bits that were too dark, and lighting it with a blue light that matched the top limit of the blue range.

    Red:

    The red is still irritatingly imperfect.

    Image colours and symbol settings:

    I darkened the varicolour segments of the basic image to a mid-grey, and unchecked the "Make symbol varicolour" box, leaving the "CD3 Roof Entities are varicolour" box the only one ticked. This has shaded the paler symbols and taken the garishness out of the colours, but the darker ones are now looking decidedly flat. It looks like I will have to make a decision about what kinds of colours people will use most often and adjust the image to best suit that colour range. But I'm more or less ok with the varicolour aspect now.

    So I just have the red thing to sort out...
      varicolour.jpg
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    But I LIKE that shade of red, looks like a very rich red velvet. Now the Neon Lime Green to the left .. .. ..

    could I suggest a thin black circle around the top of the teardrops to give the top a more distinct look??
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2018
     
    It's looking good. You can use the ImageMagick convert.exe program (shipped with CC3+ in the #Imagemagick directory) to combine several images into a single PNG, if it helps. An example:
      combined.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2018 edited
     
    Thanks Jerry - The red one is also my favourite ;)

    All versions shown above are varicolour. Its all just the one varicolour symbol with a random pick of colours chosen to test the symbol across the range. If I was being properly scientific I would have done a huge grid of them laid out like the colour palette and pasted one in each of the default palette colours, but I just grabbed a handful to see if the shading worked on them - hence the instance of lime green :P

    The next test is to start rotating just one of those colours in a row - to see just how badly 'out' that red map is. Flaws will show as differences in shading patterns between the rotated symbols. When they all look the same and there are no sharp lines and sudden changes anywhere, the red map will also be fine. Then it will be time to pick the top node in that Blender model, turn on proportional editing, and twist... hoping that my modelling skills are sufficiently good for the thing not to explode into a ball of jutting triangles. (Blender doesn't always warp the mesh evenly - causing vectors to spring out of line if the transformation is too severe.) Modelling the bobbly onions will be quite interesting (some of St Basil's domes have rows of small pyramidal protrusions), but at least I will already have gotten the shaders right by then ;)

    My intention is to create a set of St Basil's domes that should make it possible to re-create St Basil's, or, because they will all be varicolour symbols, to create a St Basil's-like building. This will require 8 domes and one tented roof and central spire. That's a lot to fit into a set of only about 60 symbols that I really want to represent the major temple forms around the rest of the world...

    And that black line around the central cone form could make quite a big difference - thanks :)

    ...

    Joe - Thank you so much! I didn't realise that ImageMagick could be used to create actual graphics like that. I thought it was just a rendering engine... but then I suppose when you think about it that's kind of the same thing really. Yet another great idea :)



    Once I've got these Russian Orthodox domes sorted out I'll tackle the second most difficult symbols in the set - giant statues of Shiva, Durga and Buddha.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2018
     
    More work, though it doesn't look very different.

    I've managed to get Blender to create an almost perfect CC3-style map shader. I tested it on the plain stone symbol at the bottom of the shot, which is rotated 90 degrees each time. I've been staring at it for a very long time on and off today, so I can't really see if there are any major differences between the rotations. If you can see differences I would be very grateful if you would point them out to me. Thanks :)
      tired.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2018
     
    These are the full set of 8 onion domes based on St Basil's Cathedral. There's still some tweaking to do to get the colours spot on, but the modelling is done now, and that's what was taking the time.

    Sorry its a bit chopped off at the edges. I work on a 15 inch screen, and its difficult to get everything large enough to show the detail.
      The full set.jpg
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    Fantastic !
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    Thank you, Jim :)
    • CommentAuthorGathar
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    Those are certainly very well suited for the roof of a magician tower, because if you look at them from the corner of you eyes, you can be pretty sure that they are moving !
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    Thank you, Gathar :)

    I can't take credit for the mesmerising design, unfortunately. That would have to go to the architect Postnik Yakovlev ;)
    • CommentAuthorJensen
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    Awesome. I wish I have these skills and the knowledge to do that. Great job!
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    Mesmerising! Looking at some of the aerial images of the actual cathedral online, these seem an incredibly close match.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018 edited
     
    Thank you, Jensen and Wyvern :)

    Jensen - These were 'drawn' (if you can use that term in a 3D app) in Blender. I think 3D artists prefer to call it 'modelling'. It was the only way I could think of doing it so that the structure was believable - instead of guessing how it might look from above, and then constructing it from pure imagination.

    Wyvern - that's probably because I created them as 3D models, but I am quite surprised how closely they actually do resemble the images you can find online. Here is a view from Blender of some of the domes. Each is constructed and the shaders (colours) applied to them. Then a duplicate is created and shaded all over with the new CC3 'map shader' I have created to allow me to automatically render the map file for each dome - something that would prove to be entirely impossible if I was drawing it by hand and using only my imagination. Sometimes there are things that are just way too complicated to draw, and look far better if they are modelled instead.

    Field of onions.jpg

    And here is the green and red spikey dome and its partner map dome.

    map shader.jpg

    As you can probably see this whole Blender file with all its various onions and prototype models consists of just over half a million nodes. Each of those nodes has been lovingly placed an tweaked by me, which is why its taken such a very long time to get this done! LOL!
    • CommentAuthorJensen
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    great, very interesting.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    These are part of a much larger set of domes and other temple constructions that I will be sharing with you, most probably with Profantasy's help, or through Profantasy, so they aren't just things I'm making for myself. They will eventually be available for everyone ;)
    • CommentAuthorpvernon
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    Fantastic!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    Thanks :)
  1.  
    Thanks for sharing the details Sue. Beautiful as always!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2018
     
    Thanks Dan :)
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2018
     
    And now you have a template for creating Christmas tree ornaments as well, as an accidental by-product!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    LOL!

    Anyone fancy mapping a Christmas tree?

    I made the Blender models pendant shaped like that because the relative position of all the selected nodes in the model affects the way scaling works. I tried just making the topside only, but the centre of the scaling operation (the point from which the scaling grew or shrank back into) moved upwards into the top half of the cone, and I got some very peculiar results!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Bit rushed at the moment, but I'm having some fun with these domes :D

    There are 10 originals done as faithfully as I can to the original St Basil's, and the same 10 done as varicolour symbols - shown in black, white and red below.

    I'm hoping that when this set is released this will be enough wizard towers for everyone for a couple of days :P
      Domes.jpg
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    I like these a lot!! You are way more talented than I will ever be. If I were to complain, just a couple of small nibbles. 1) These are Onion Domes after all, but the shadows are of a round object. This especially obvious on those that are irregular in pointyness, like the red and green one, top row, second from the left. 2) They all seem brand new, right out of the box, just unwrapped -- perhaps a bit of "living" cound be applied to them? Or to a variant of them?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Thanks Jerry :)

    You mean... optional birds nests and city grime?

    You can (for the time being until it vanishes in an update somewhen) ruin these domes just like you can ruin any CD3 building by using a Colour Key effect on them.

    I will see how much space I have left for deliberately ruined and tatty buildings when I've finished adding new ideas to the set ;)
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    These will also work nicely for circular awnings or tent tops, for example as used in a market place. Or even the parasol for a suitably regal personage keen to keep out of the sun!

    I like the bright colours. Though an option for more domes with a bit of neglect and fading would always be welcomed. We have an endless need for more symbols, after all ;D
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Wonderful stuff Sue! You truly are an amazing artist in all mediums. I can't wait to get my mojo back (mapper's block, i guess) after exploring a few medieval villages in Tuscany and a castle or two on my holiday. Really looking forward to another Annual from you!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Thank you so much - both of you! :D

    Wyvern - they can be whatever you want them to be. So far, on the FB page, I've had parasols, gourds, and cupcakes! Heheheee! That last one made me feel seriously hungry. I had to take a break and go out and get some cake!

    Lorelei - Mapper's block?!! No! Not you! :O

    The next annual is the other half of the Japanese set - all the village/town buildings - though they could be used for most Eastern Asian style settlements. I did too many for a single annual you see (nearly 100 symbols in all, and way over the usual size in MB).

    These domes are part of an additional 'allsorts' set of temple related objects sparked by ideas and suggestions that came out of the Japanese Temple set. Its a third set, but not an actual annual - temple bits from around the rest of the world - Russian Orthodox domes, Mosque and Synagogue domes, giant Hindu statues - that sort of thing. There are a couple more complete buildings planned as well, but they aren't on the scale of the Japanese temples - just a handful of single buildings representing other interesting architectural forms. I really love the Chinese Buddhist temples. I'm just hoping that my actual drawing skills are up to doing all those massively complicated roof sculptures - dragons and phoenix, and so on. And the colours... well, this is turning into one of the gaudiest sets I've ever seen, but that means I'm right at home with it :P
  2.  
    I just noticed they all have gold caps.... what about a few other caps (silver, copper, metal, etc) as stand alons symbols that could be used to place on top of the gold cap for making even more variety in the domes?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    By rights they should all have a whopping great big gold cross on them, complete with at least four stays (complete with decorative ball-balls) to hold them up in a wind, since they are all based on the domes of St Basil's Cathedral. The trouble with sticky-outy-pointy bits on a building like that is that its almost impossible to make them look like they are sticky-outy-pointy bits without drawing some very definite internal shadows, and that tends to ruin the symbol for rotation - so yes, there will be a set of inter-changeable finials ;)

    So far I've got these on my list of additional finial symbols: giant cross, sickle moon, simple ball... and then there are the more complicated arrangements with flower-like bases, though I'm not really sure about how to make them easily interchangeable since every dome is a different colour. Varicolour finial decorations, I suppose.
    • CommentAuthorPerryC
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    What an interesting read this thread has been! Amazing work!!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    I feel a bit of a fraud saying thank you myself, because it takes several people contributing to make a thread interesting, but thank you :)

    And thank you also for the complement :)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    ( Jim goes by on a pogo stick.)

    Don't pay any attention to old boring me.

    Anyway several people around here turn out most excellet maps !
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    We map little pieces of a single world, while you map entire galaxies ;)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    Oh no ! Well, parts of two fictional spiral arms of our galaxy.