Another dumb question

Nacon4 · October 2016

Ok, gals and guys. Here it is. I'm figuring each house (standard) in the street laying option is about thirty feet long and about ten wide for a family between 2 and 4. Is that about right? I'm trying get a sense of scale in my map and if I can establish a house's size then I've won the battle. Can anyone help me with this. I just mean the standard assumptions, that's all.

Thanks, in advance

LLAP

Nacon4

Bill · October 2016

Nacon4, I will try not to use the, "it all depends" but it really kind of does. 30*10 yields a 300 square foot house, which by American standards is very small. Most European homes tend to be a tad smaller than American homes but again that isn't a hard fast rule. I live in a 100+ year old home on the east coast and while it was expanded, the original brick area was 35'*20 with 2 stories and an separate summer kitchen. In its time it was a very nice house at 1400 square foot plus a 120 square foot summer kitchen.

Since your project has a modern rebuild feel my thoughts would be around 800-1200 square feet total as an average family dwelling.

My 2 pennies anyway...

Bill

Dogtag · October 2016

Select Info>Distance from the menu bar and then click the start and end points of the distance you want to measure. CC3 will tell you the map unit value of the distance between the points you clicked. This is a quick and easy way to determine how big a symbol is, on the map. Thus, if you use the Distance tool on a city map, say to measure the length along a house symbol, and CC3 returns 33.31468 then the symbol is just over 33 feet long or, if the map is using meters, it's 33 meters long.

EDIT: The Distance command actually includes the measured units in its display output. For example, the above scenario would return 33.31468' for feet.

I hope that helps,
~Dogtag

Nacon4 · October 2016

Thank you, Bill and Dogtag! I will do that and we'll see what happens!

LLAP

Nacon4

Bill · October 2016

@Dogtag, I think you may have better understood what he was looking for. I read it quickly and thought he was asking for how big should they be, but after re reading I think you may have the better response.

Either way Nacon4, let us know if this gets you what you need.

Bill

Nacon4 · October 2016

@Bill, I took one of the smaller houses and came up with a ballpark figure of 850'sq which works. Which means the map is in meters; and that makes the hospital really frickin' big! I'm gonna have to come up with a big map for the underground based on the size of the hospital. Whuff!

Anyway, thank you both! You definitely answered my question!

LLAP

Nacon4

Nacon4 · October 2016

Well, I did come up with some numbers; and as the underground complex is below the water table it's gonna 650' x 650'. Does this even qualify as a map?

LLAP

Nacon4

Edit: The above means the complex was drilled out of bedrock and is over a thousand feet down. ;p
0_0

Loopysue · October 2016

Ed - a plan showing the layout of a desk is a map, as far as I am concerned

Nacon4 · October 2016

Posted By: LoopysueEd - a plan showing the layout of a desk is a map, as far as I am concerned

Thank you. This will be one wild map!

LLAP

Nacon4

Dogtag · October 2016

Remember that the map scale is used by CC3 to determine relative size and distance but the units it's using are just math used by the CAD engine. You can say that the scale on the map is anything. For example, if something on the map measures 10 meters long but you only want it to be 10 feet, then simply say it's 10 feet. Everything on the map should be the same relative scale so it should work out fine. Just keep the actual scale in mind when printing because I think CC3 does map unit-to-page inch calculations for that.

Also, if you're done editing the map, you can just rescale everything at once to the proper scale, if you want.

Nacon4 · October 2016

Thanks Dogtag! I do have a pertinent question though. How do I resize the scale so that the scale reflects the true size of the map. 650' across.

Thanks in advance.

LLAP

Nacon4

Edit: The good thing about this map will be that I can include just about everything in one floor.

Dogtag · October 2016

How wide is it now?

Dogtag · October 2016

I've gotta grab some dinner so here're the steps I've used. There may be other ways to scale the entire map and all its contents, but this is pretty easy and it's worked for me in the past.

First, determine the scale factor you need to use. If your map is currently, say, 2133 feet wide then, to scale it to 650 feet wide, some quick math says you need to use a scale factor of 0.304735.

2133 * n = 650
n = 650/2133
n = 0.30473511486

Naturally, determine the real scale factor using the actual map values.

Then, try this:

Save. The. Map.
Open the Drawing Sheets and Effects dialog and note any hidden sheets.
Show all sheets and then click OK to close the dialog.
Open the Select Layer dialog and note any hidden or frozen layers.
Show all layers and thaw all layers and then click OK to close the dialog.
Right-click the Scale button and select Non-visual Scale from the pop-up menu.
The command line reads, Select Entities (0 picked):.
Right-click anywhere on the map and select All from the pop-up menu.
The command line reads, Select Entities (x picked):, where x is the number of entities CC3 selected. The selection should include everything, including any map border or screen around the border.
Right-click again and select Do It from the pop-up menu.
The command line changes to read, Scale by factor [x]:, where x is the last scale factor used for this command.
Type the scale factor you want to rescale to.
In my example, the value is .304735, but be sure to use the real scale factor you determined using the actual width of your map. The command line changes to read, Scale Center [0.00000,0.00000]:, where 0.00000,0.00000 are the coordinates for the last center used.
If the center is already 0.00000,0.00000 then just press Enter. Otherwise, if the center is some other location, type 0,0 and then press Enter.
The map rescales. You may want to save it with a different name (maybe tack on "_Scaled" or something to the end of the filename).
Click Zoom Extents.
The map refreshes and fills the drawing window.
If desired, use Info>Distance to measure the map and/or symbols to make sure it rescaled as you wanted. If not, you can undo.
Once the map is the scale you want, re-hide and re-freeze the sheets and layers as appropriate.

Voilà!

I hope that helps,
~Dogtag

Nacon4 · October 2016

Thanks Dogtag, that helps a lot!

LLAP

Nacon4

Nacon4 · October 2016

Well I got the Symbol Set 3 for my (wip) Dr. Mako's Horror Pit (The Demon Doctor of Blanket St.). There's a lot of new symbols in it; and I'm looking forward to starting on it soon.

LLAP

Nacon4

Nacon4 · October 2016

I found out that I can't generate a dungeon with SS3. I *can* create buildings with underground on them; but I'm kinda sad that I can't mix and match symbols!

LLAP

Nacon4

Dogtag · October 2016

Sure you can! Monsen's winning battle map entry was a mix of dungeon and modern symbols. What makes you think you can't mix and match?

You should be able to just click the DD3 or SS3 buttons to toggle different symbol catalogues.

Nacon4 · October 2016

Well, when I created a 650 x 650 map to start making my map, none of the symbols for SS3 would show up. Didn't matter what category I chose. As long as it was SS3, I couldn't use it. When I switched back to a map generated with SS3, I had all of my symbols back.

Hmmm, I didn't try accessing Dungeon symbols with an SS3 map. Maybe that's what it was, I'll check back with ya on this one!

LLAP

Nacon4

Monsen · October 2016

Note that your master filter isn't necessarily correct when you swap between addons (Which means that the symbol catalog buttons won't necessarily work as expected). You'll either need to manually change this, OR just load the symbol catalogs manually instead of using the buttons.

The reasons for the problem with the master filter is that each addon offers multiple styles, so when you switch to it using the menu button, CC3+ don't know which of the styles to activate. When you start a new map, this is set correctly by the template you use, but that won't do when using two different styles in the same map. If this is something you do often, I would probably define my own symbol catalog settings, master filters, and template to go with it (and possibly a toolbar set as well), but if it is a one-shot, it is probably easier to just select things manually.

Nacon4 · October 2016

Well, I tried repairing SS3 by running the repair with administrative privileges but that seemed to change nothing. I could call for Dungeon symbols and they would appear, but once I did that the SS3 symbols went away. Should I just uninstall and then do a complete reinstall?

Confused.

LLAP

Nacon4

Nacon4 · October 2016

Hmmm, I could do all the modern elements before I did all the fantasy elements that might work.

LLAP

Nacon4

Nacon4 · October 2016

Posted By: MonsenNote that your master filter isn't necessarily correct when you swap between addons (Which means that the symbol catalog buttons won't necessarily work as expected). You'll either need to manually change this, OR just load the symbol catalogs manually instead of using the buttons.

The reasons for the problem with the master filter is that each addon offers multiple styles, so when you switch to it using the menu button, CC3+ don't know which of the styles to activate. When you start a new map, this is set correctly by the template you use, but that won't do when using two different styles in the same map. If this is something you do often, I would probably define my own symbol catalog settings, master filters, and template to go with it (and possibly a toolbar set as well), but if it is a one-shot, it is probably easier to just select things manually.

I'm not a complete idiot; but I have no idea of how to do what you're talking about. Could you point me to either a.) a resource on this website; or b.) something within the Tome that could do the trick? BTW- I searched through all of the CC3+ and CC3 directories to find out where the symbols were and found nothing. Oh, I also tried to pick symbol catalogues with the symbol command and found nothing of SS3 symbol sets when I switched to the DD3 symbol set. I tried a repair on the SS3 symbol (run as administrator) which seemed to do absolutely nothing to my system. So, as a last ditch effort-should I uninstall SS3 and reinstall it (as administrator)?

Thanks!

LLAP

Nacon4

Monsen · October 2016

Uninstalling/reinstalling wouldn't help you, what you are running into are just limitations in how the program work with multiple styles simultaneously, you will have to do some manual work when doing stuff like this. This would have been easy for CC3+ to do if there was just one dungeon style, just one modern style and so on, but as you know, there are at least several of each (and quite a lot when annuals are thrown into the mix).

The simplest option is to use the "open symbol catalog" button on to of the actual symbol catalog window. All symbol catalogs are stored in your CC3+ data directory (By default c:\ProgramData\ProFantasy\CC3Plus). The default DD3 symbols are found under @symbols\Dungeon\DD3\DD3 Color, while the SS3 Bitmap A ones are under @Symbols\Modern\Floorplans\SS3 Bitmap A

The Tome describes symbol catalog settings and master filters starting on page 80 with "Managing Symbol Catalogs" and "Understanding the Symbol Filters", but I really recommend reading the entire "Symbols and Symbol Management" chapter, as it puts everything into context.

Nacon4 · October 2016

Since I have both CC3+ and CC3 on my system, I'm thinking that the system is confused as to where the symbol sets are located since I cannot find the sub-directories in question. Would it be logical to completely uninstall all the programs. Use Uninstaller Pro to clean up the whole thing and then do a fresh install of the entire system. Then there would no longer be any question as to where the symbol sets were installed?

I only ask this because when I try to choose symbol sets for SS3 the only map it lets me play with is the introductory map.

Otherwise, I get this when I try to choose any symbol set for SS3

LLAP

EDIT: I also note that this is in the Program Files (x86) sub-directory, not the Program Files subdirectory.

Nacon4

Monsen · October 2016

Uninstalling will most probably not help. CC3 and CC3+ are completely independent, and don't get confused by each other (Unless you somehow managed to install them into the exact same directory, but that would have caused far more serious error messages.

The blank select catalog settings box is completely normal when the master filter is not set correctly. The master filter is automatically set to the correct style when you open an existing map, or create a new one, but as I described above, it will quickly be "off" when you swap between add-ons, because it doesn't know which of the many styles belonging to the add-on you wishes to use.

And don't bother with the program files directories, this isn't where CC3+ keep it's symbols (CC3 does, but not CC3+). For CC3+, the files are in c:\programData\ProFantasy\CC3Plus (The files under C:\program files (x86)\ProFantasy\CC3Plus is just the program itself, not the symbols). Note that the ProgramData directory is hidden by default on windows, so if you have navigated outside of it, you either need to show hidden files, or, simply type in c:\programData\ProFantasy\CC3Plus in the filename box and hit enter, that will navigate the dialog directly to the correct directory (Assuming you left this directory at it's default location when you installed)

JimP · October 2016

I fully agree. I browse to various symbol sets and add those stmbols to a map.

Another suggestion I use is that once I create a map; a standard town or city for a particular game country, i save that symbol set frmo the map to the folder of sybols using Symbol Manager menu.

Just open Symbol Manager. You will see a list of symbols used in that map.

Click on the top symbol; in the list. Hold down the shift key, and click on the symbol in the bottom of the list. Single click, not double click.

Then 'Save as Catalog' will become visible, instead of grayed out, at the upper right of Symbol Manager. Then save it to a Symbols folder where it will be used; city folder for city symbols, Maps -> CC3 for overland symbols.

I save using the same name as the map, this is automatic. That way I have symbol sets saved for each nation and city in my game world. That way I can be consistant, unless I forget to look for them, which ones go with city, nation, etc.

Nacon4 · October 2016

Ok, I loaded some symbols from the symbol set Weapons. Now the next logical question is how many symbol sets can I load into the symbol manager?

LLAP

Nacon4

Edit: Or do I just swap them in and out as necessary?

Loopysue · October 2016

I have about ten different symbol sets loaded into the Merelan City map. It doesn't seem to make any difference, but that's probably because the files themselves remain exactly where they always were. CC3 just references them, like calling a function in a programme.

Nacon4 · October 2016

@Sue, thank you! That would save a *lot* of trouble for me.

LLAP

Nacon4

Nacon4 · October 2016

Well, I tried loading multiple sets and only succeeded in locking the program up.

Maybe if I tried one symbol at a time.

LLAP

Nacon4

Loopysue · October 2016

Well... at least you can blame me now if you load 200 sets and get some kind of problem with it all

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