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    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    That works, but I did just discover another issue.

    No matter what template you start with, and what master filter you choose, each time you click on one of the button in the menu (using city.mnu), it reverts back to the vector style, instead of staying with the style of the recently selected filter.
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalf
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    The catalog buttons work a little differently in CD3. THe two left-most ones always give you the bitmap catalogs and the other ones the different vector styles. IS that what you're seeing?
    • CommentAuthorTheElf
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    I heard how should I expect that Profantasy to be nice and fair, and if they said I shouldn't worry, it means that, and I always said: if they would give it out they would register preorder or would say that in plain words (officially). Now that it is out, at least we can know the truth and what kind of people works at Profantasy.
  1.  
    Posted By: TheElfI heard how should I expect that Profantasy to be nice and fair, and if they said I shouldn't worry, it means that, and I always said: if they would give it out they would register preorder or would say that in plain words (officially).


    I have no idea what this means. If you have a question about upgrades, by all means ask. Was the forum message unclear?
    • CommentAuthorTheElf
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    Which message?

    And I doubt it I will want to have any questions to you, since I don't have any reasons to trust or respect you.

    Right now I am not only think update I should think before I would even consider to update, but I also think if I would use your software for work, it would stay installed, but if I want to use it for fun, and to share the fun with players and friends later, it won't be much fun. Why?

    I hope you will have just as much fun as your empty promises brought to me.

    If you have no idea be quiet.

    Interestingly enough when you asked for suggestions, most said when you think it will be updated in 1 year make it listed as preorder. You said it would be "unlimited protection".

    No Mr. Simon Rogers. It wouldn't be unlimited, partly because it would mean one upgrade, and partly because you would update in time. And partly because you wouldn't spend your resources elsewhere, like in annual, like in asking money for important pieces of documentation. And partly because you would be motivated to release in time, since you wouldn't win money on delays.

    But it would mean, you would respect the rights of the customer to have an informed choice. In EU and several other countries it is expected, if you provide any information about what is expected, you are responsible for it, since it influences decisions of the customers you have. Ok, you can say you are a monopoly, since no other products have similar functionality than City Designer 3, so you can use and abuse this position. Sadly the values we have in EU doesn't agree with that.

    Ability to make a choice based on solid information, and the ability to trust a company when you buy something from them is important. The whole discussion showed one thing, you don't even understand why fairness is important. How can I expect a fair deal from you then?

    Based on how this issue is handled, if I think about you or your products it doesn't make me happy, it makes me sad and somewhat angry. I doubt if any features in CD3 could change that. And if I doubt this, and I see other stuff (pointed out by Rob, etc) as problems, I think the choice about update won't be a simple choice.

    Deciding if I want to keep your software installed isn't an easy choice either.
    • CommentAuthorloydb
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    Personally, I'd refund your whining a** whatever you've paid and ban your IP at this point :P
    • CommentAuthorDally
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    I'm assuming TheElf's first language isn't English, and that's perfectly ok. But having said that, I hope I am simply misunderstanding your particular choice of words.

    If I'm not misunderstanding, and I'm reading your words correctly, I have to say, you're really not being very mature about this whole situation. At this point, you just seem to come across as rude and childish. "If you have no idea be quiet." ? Really? Come on man, if you have an issue state it clearly, until now your whole argument has been that you haven't been provided with the information required to make an "informed decision", and yet you have failed with each and every one of your posts to expand beyond that two-word phrase. You have failed to convince even me as to what your problem REALLY is nor how anyone from ProFantasy could help you solve your problem.

    At this point, you're really just trolling - and that's just silliness. Threatening PF with whether or not you plan to install their software isn't really helping the situation, or your case either.

    I think if you would just calm down and try to explain EXACTLY what the issue is, WITHOUT using harsh words then you might find your problem solved quickly and to your satisfaction. I have no reason to believe that the folks at PF aren't decent people willing to go out of their way to make you happy.

    Seriously, just take it easy and show a little respect and I've no doubt you'll find it returned in kind.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    Posted By: RalfThe catalog buttons work a little differently in CD3. Tee two left-most ones always give you the bitmap catalogs and the other ones the different vector styles. IS that what you're seeing?
    No. All the buttons only give me vector symbols. Are there any buttons that weren't installed into my menu bar perhaps? The two leftmost buttons in my CD3 catalog button bar are the old Default/Miscellaneous and Fantasy/Howel ones. The bar itself looks identical to how it looked in CD Pro.
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    Posted By: Monsen
    Posted By: RalfThe catalog buttons work a little differently in CD3. Tee two left-most ones always give you the bitmap catalogs and the other ones the different vector styles. IS that what you're seeing?
    No. All the buttons only give me vector symbols. Are there any buttons that weren't installed into my menu bar perhaps? The two leftmost buttons in my CD3 catalog button bar are the old Default/Miscellaneous and Fantasy/Howel ones. The bar itself looks identical to how it looked in CD Pro.


    I have the same situation as Monsen. All of the buttons are exactly the same as CD Pro.
    • CommentAuthorTheElf
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    Dally: The respect was shown in early mails, I exchanged quite a few emails with them mostly about these issues. Why? Because even when the first annual was released I seen they weren't that focused on cutting back the delays, when they started to use resources elsewhere and the delays became longer and longer.

    At that point I heard what was planned for 2007, we seen more and more delays since that, and we also seen people who could work on symbols, new effects, etc. were busy with annual, while CD3 was delayed.

    At this point I was content, partly because I had some reasons to trust them.

    What changed? When the first suggestions for free update period was mentioned this year.
    And when they sent out coupon codes this year, without giving a chance to use them on CD3 update.

    The first meant, the information from them, and what they said wasn't in line with their current plans.
    And the secound meant the losses are higher since even at that point they simply didn't care.

    At that point if they would say sorry, they made a mistake would be enough, it happens, etc.
    If they would extend the life of the coupon code to cover the time when CD3 update could be bought would be good as well.
    Putting out a preorder in time to make the coupon useful for people involved it would be a good deal.
    Saying they own up for the information, and free upgrades are valid for people who bought stuff before the delays became known (that is still in 2006) since they had reasons to expect it would be good as well.

    They done nothing but they said "we are good", I told them some official information would be nice.

    There was some more trust, and waited and waited.

    The time when they said it will be released on Gencon, I was angry for the lack of information, yet I waited and remained content. The moment when someone posted and there was a wall of "profantasy is fair" type posts I explained it isn't that good, since what they say isn't backed up by official policy. Expressed intentions when they aren't in line with their policy and with what they wan't to do makes them look dishonest.

    Yet, even at this time, a simple apology would be good from them.
    Making the coupon code work and admiting fault would be good for them.
    Releasing info about who will get free updates in time would be somewhat corrent.

    Yet, we haven't seen that from Profantasy. They said they are always correct. Sure? Even if their correctness doesn't even extend to a simple apology.

    I know mistakes can happen, they can see many unpleasant surprises that can change their plans. But they can post a simple apology.

    We seen loydb and others being quite offensive against us, but he is end user, so that isn't a problem.

    When Simon Rogers came with his posts and how he questioned what I listed as what I consider fair, he shown he made a mistake, I lost money because of it, and he is arrogant and he claims he is always fair, honest and nice.

    To me, at this point he became a liar.

    Yet, the respect he got extended past this point. He might decide to own up to his words and say CD3 update is free for the people who trusted their words. He had a chance to say sorry. He had a chance to offer extensions of coupon code. He had a chance to see: Ooops, many people listed giving a preorder option instead of information you CAN'T trust would be a fair improvement, we will do that, and the current situation is a honest mistake.

    Noone would say anything bad about it.

    Yet he remained offensive.

    I have no reason to respect him.
    And I have the reason to tell him: he excepted extra profit from this behavior compared to anything fair (even if with an apology he would get the full price) I am sure about one thing: he shouldn't expect too much income from me, and he shouldn't expect me to recommend any profantasy software. Even less: since I don't plan to make CC3 maps, my friends won't see much about CC3, won't be bugged to get at least the viewer and consider buying it. Not a threat. It is a feedback, to let him know, his decision doesn't help him.

    If he would be fair, or at least he would admit fault, mistakes, and say sorry for it, or would try to find a middle ground (extending coupon code) and show good faith, it would be a different story. But with each and every posts he makes he loses even more respect.

    loydb: I hope you will meet many nice merchants who lie and run away your money, and many people who offer as much sympathy when you are the victim of them as you give to others.

    He knew well what makes me unhappy, and why I won't have a reason to hide if. If he would want to avoid it, he would start with an apology, or extending the old coupon code, or... and avoid it. I doubt if he would want to pay the refund to avoid it (and he would still have cheaper and more fair alternatives).
    • CommentAuthorMogul76
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    Posted By: TheElfMogul76: As you see with the new preorder / update protection we suggest about the same thing, since it allows informed choice (and I would suggest alternatives)


    Perhaps we are, TheElf. But I'm trying to be as precise and constructive as possible when presenting my ideas and viewpoints as a customer to Simon, so that he can make "informed decisions" as a developer and supplier of RPG mapping software. At this point, I just feel confused by your posts. To me it isn't even clear if you have preordered CD3... whether you bought CD2 Pro before June 2007 in the hope that CD3 would be released within 12 months following to the purchase date... But I don't want these discussions to start all over again. So I won't ask about it.
    • CommentAuthorTheElf
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    Mogul76: When CC3 was released and they still planned to update quickly and had a shorter planed release schedule posted I ordered stuff based on this info.

    In 2007 January I asked about it for first time, since the new info about delays was released and they launched annuals.

    They have this information, and I think quoting private emails, etc wouldn't be fair.
    • CommentAuthorloydb
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008 edited
     
    I stand by my statement... :(

    In fact, if you tell me how much money you spent on CD3, and give me a paypal or mailing address, I'll write you a check if you promise to go away and never darken these boards again.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008 edited
     
    Please. We do not need that kind of language on these boards. I've edited your post to remove the offensive language.

    I'll also request that we put the current discussion to rest. I understand that some people have a problem with how this upgrade was handled, but I believe enough has been said now. We don't want this to escalate any further. If anyone feel unfairly treated, this is better handled with a private email to ProFantasy.
    • CommentAuthorTheElf
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    Monsen: When Profantasy decide what they need, they should make sure they do what they can to maintain the standards they want to keep by their actions.

    The problem isn't about the update only.

    As I said, if profantasy staff would decide: They made a mistake with the early promises and say sorry for the problems stirred and side with the people they wronged in the argument it would cost them nothing and we would have no issues.

    Sadly neither then nor their most vocal supporters seem to try to make the change happen.

    And sadly, when someone calls himself fair, but doesn't have the courage to own up for his mistakes and say sorry and side with the people wronged, then that speaks tales about that person and that company. And that is worse than any offensive language.

    They got private emails before, but sadly I have to say, it can't be handled by that.

    Why? Mostly because the insults exchanged.

    If Profantasy admits they made wrong decisions when they spoke about updates, planned dates, etc first, and when they spoke about the issue later next, and finally when they forgot about CD3 update problem when they issued coupons this way (which would mitigate the damage) and they are sorry for what it brought including the exchanged insults that would make it stop. using moderator powers won't. And sadly it should happen on these boards.

    They are free to try to reach an agreement, and they seen many proposals.
    • CommentAuthorTheElf
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    loydb: I hope when people wrong you, and you would ask for help, you will get the same treatment, and I have to say it is you who darken these boards.

    You say profantasy is fair. Where is the fairness if they don't have the courage to say sorry when they put up wrong info, failed to give solid details, etc. and it ended up with many hurt feelings and exchange of insults? They aren't fair.

    And I would have to say: if you side with them, you aren't a good man either.
    Now they have all the powers, and they use and abuse it.

    I certainly hope that you will need support when others wrong you, and see the same kind of treatment as you give.
    But I also hope you will see how important it is to see support since you might get it.
    • CommentAuthorTheElf
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    Ohh, sorry for breaking the post in two parts: You want to keep the argument quiet, nice. What is the easiest thing to do? Post your offensive posts, use offensive language and make it worse? No, mister.

    If you would try to understand: Others can be quite unhappy because of the treatment they get, and you shouldn't make it worse for them, then we wouldn't turn it into a flame war.

    Sadly you said earlier we should trust Profantasy and it will work out nice, you had an image of them in your mind, and this image doesn't match with reality. Should I trust their words? Should I trust your assumptions? No.

    You assumed they will fix the issue.
    Yet they haven't even tried and haven't even said sorry.

    I don't call you on your words, since you are an end user. But if what you expected didn't happen, you shouldn't blame me for the results.
  2.  
    The Elf,

    I have contacted you privately. I'd like to understand what it was we promised to you and didn't fulfill, so that I can make recompense.

    In the meantime I suggest that no one post to this thread for a good few hours to allow tempers to cool.
    • CommentAuthorRob
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Given that PF gave the reduced update price, I actually have no problem with the amount we had to pay, it's LESS then the original, Simon had said that 2007 was the cut off and I understood that was likely to stay, *shrugs* if you read most of my posts it was simply the lack of information leading up to and the contradicting information the website that had me upset.

    Have I brought the upgrade?

    Yes. I was happy to for a BIG reason: PF has had to put a load of effort into CD3 they need to make money back from it, simple as that.. if the Compat update had the features I'd likely not have, but it doesn't so I did. That and some of the posts and some talk with simon convinced me that you know Profantasy does it's best to sort out problems.. they love this product as much as we do even if we get really really heated about it.

    Elf, I know why your upset but lets face it if Simon and the rest of Profantasy gave out a blanket upgrade for every one who brought from late 2006 onwards they'd go bankrupt this is the part I understand and have come to agree with.

    The only thing I ask from PF in the future honestly is BETTER communication list and here.. And that the website be checked before it's put on live. The Preorder Upgrade wasn't there when the website said it was so *shrugs* that's their fault.. But on the other hand, Simon and the rest HAVE always said 1 year even if the original release schedual hasn't held, I'm not gonna argue with that, in that they have kept their word.

    -Rob
    • CommentAuthorRob
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Started a bug/use/help topic to get it out of here.. link is HERE

    I've copied over Monsen's bug ralf's responce and Monsens responce to that.. easier then continuing here.
    • CommentAuthorDally
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Posted By: RobGiven that PF gave the reduced update price, I actually have no problem with the amount we had to pay, it's LESS then the original, Simon had said that 2007 was the cut off and I understood that was likely to stay, *shrugs* if you read most of my posts it was simply the lack of information leading up to and the contradicting information the website that had me upset.

    Have I brought the upgrade?

    Yes. I was happy to for a BIG reason: PF has had to put a load of effort into CD3 they need to make money back from it, simple as that.. if the Compat update had the features I'd likely not have, but it doesn't so I did. That and some of the posts and some talk with simon convinced me that you know Profantasy does it's best to sort out problems.. they love this product as much as we do even if we get really really heated about it.

    Elf, I know why your upset but lets face it if Simon and the rest of Profantasy gave out a blanket upgrade for every one who brought from late 2006 onwards they'd go bankrupt this is the part I understand and have come to agree with.

    The only thing I ask from PF in the future honestly is BETTER communication list and here.. And that the website be checked before it's put on live. The Preorder Upgrade wasn't there when the website said it was so *shrugs* that's their fault.. But on the other hand, Simon and the restHAVEalways said 1 year even if the original release schedual hasn't held, I'm not gonna argue with that, in that they have kept their word.

    -Rob


    Well said.

    One thing I would like to expand on, though:

    Better communication is definitely helpful, but at the same time it also needs to be more cautious communication on the part of PF. Rather than continually suggesting possible, tentative release dates (hopefully after gencon -> putting together a build now, if it works we'll release beginning next week -> hopefully thurs or mon -> hopefully a week tuesday -> etc, etc) I think it's much safer, and much more informative simply to tell us what you're doing.

    A steady stream of updates that simply tell us what portion of the process you're working on, without giving any target release dates serves to show us how things are going without giving anyone any false ideas or false expectations of when something will be released.

    For example, you might on a weekly basis (anything longer than that borders on "lack of news" territory) write 4 or 5 sentences detailing the work you've just accomplished in the last week and what you're looking at doing in the next week. "This past week we reworked some of the bitmaps to produce sharper images. We really felt that some of the existing ones weren't quite up to shape. As for the new feature X, we've managed to get that implemented and working, however it's currently not playing as nicely as we'd like with existing feature Y so this week we'll be focusing on ironing that out."

    Really, that's perfect, it lets people see that you're hard at work, without providing anything that anyone can use as fodder later.

    That's what I like to see from a developer personally, everyone is different though.
    • CommentAuthorTheElf
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Rob: This is why I said the best way is to look for middle ground, or to handle it by saying sorry and learning from it.

    As you see putting up preorder option earlier and removing the update protection would prevent all such problems, since it would be clear.
    Putting up preorder updates as well a few month in advance would help as well (remember the voucher they sent this year?)
    Deciding that the annual gives access to major and minor updates (otherwise people can buy major updates individually) would make the whole waiting faster and eliminate the whole problem

    The problem is: Any planned release dates + update offer in a single offer starts similar problems, and simply Profantasy doesn't want to communicate in the fair way.

    The first time I mentioned the delays and updates issue when the annual was first released and I was concerned about seeing CD3 in time, if at that time they would either say sorry and say, the delays probably kill some of the updates, and send out a voucher for some discount on the annual, the problem wouldn't be here. But the everything will be fine they are always fair and always considering such things when giving out updates response isn't that fair, if they don't live by it.

    What made me furious? Simple.

    How the issue was treated.

    Delays can happen. I don't know about any company where delays, problems, etc. can't and don't happen. But if they happen, how they react? You get assured that things will be all right? Even when you couldn't use your voucher to buy the update since they are undecided about what happens with the update, and you lose that amount too, they say things will be alright? And then "what isn't clear?" about the you don't get it?

    Or try very hard to prevent such issues? Tell you about the problem, tell you that you are going to pay, but make sure you can preorder the update when the voucher codes for discounts are still valid to reduce the problem? Or simply give out the update? Or make sure they learn from it, and change from update protection to early preorder or update subscribtion (or an option to choose between the two) to prevent future problems?

    As you see communication, and how the problem was handled is more important that the costs of the update.

    The moment it turned into the flame war, they had a chance to say: "Ok, that schedule was bad and forgetting about the problems when we sent out vouchers wasn't better, saying things will be ok, both by us and our friends didn't help either. Sorry. And stop flaming, the problems are valid and we will seek a middle ground" and in that case the normal update price would be fair.

    Yet, it was questioned why I am happy with companies that I can trust, companies where what they say means something. Companies who take responsbility for their actions. And why I am unhappy because sadly their communication (and their friends communication) was offensive after the trouble started.

    Saying sorry doesn't cost them a cent.
    Admiting that the problem was bad for some, and looking for a way to avoid it (discussing suggestions) doesn't cost anything at all.
    Extending the voucher code? Costs them as much as they were willing to give.

    As you see there are quite good ways to handle the problem.

    If Simon Rogers himself wouldn't question when I said I am happy with licence and update policy of a few companies and wouldn't add to the exchange of insults after the problem but admit the problem early, that wouldn't cost them a cent.

    Dally: Such communication would be helpful, as you see the whole issue is about misleading news, how to communicate when problems arise, how to mitigate the problems, etc.

    Information is an one way street.
    Communication is two way. If they learn about a problem, saying things will be ok, and haven't even considering what was said and the group of people, and not even saying "sorry" for the people who lost, simply shows that the communication here is restricted to technical support mostly. No real communication. Not only the information is missing, but it take ages for them to recognize the problems, adapt, and accept when there are new options.
    • CommentAuthorolona
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    I was very excited when i opened my mailbox to see that CD3 has been released. Finally!!

    Having bought the CD2, not a long time ago, i was a bit surprised to see that I still had to pay 28 US for it. I realise that this thread is talking about this issue, but having the flu, my eyes are already burning so I will rather just write this in hope nobody get offended if the question has already been brought up. Its not that 28 is alot of money, more the principal behind it.

    Is there a way to get the software CD3 when you already have bought the CD2, a couple of months ago. I knew when i bought CD2 that this would not be optimal, and was thinking on it as a "trial software", allowing me to play around with it until CD3 came out, and that was partially the reason for buying that old package...

    Have a good one :)
    • CommentAuthorTheElf
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    olona: Based on how it worked in the past.

    Normally when there is a such update they give you the same update price, even when it is free, and you see a voucher code in the email. If you use the voucher code, it will cover the cost of the software, but won't cover the extra costs for shipping the CD version. The update will be free this way, and will be delivered in the usual order tracking page.

    I think, if you have ordered just a few months ago, you should have the coupon code in your inbox for the email address you provided when you ordered the software, if you have Campaign Cartographer 3 registered under same account. If there is any problem you should contact them in email.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSimon Rogers
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008 edited
     
    Posted By: olonaI was very excited when i opened my mailbox to see that CD3 has been released. Finally!!

    Having bought the CD2, not a long time ago, i was a bit surprised to see that I still had to pay 28 US for it. I realise that this thread is talking about this issue, but having the flu, my eyes are already burning so I will rather just write this in hope nobody get offended if the question has already been brought up. Its not that 28 is alot of money, more the principal behind it.

    Is there a way to get the software CD3 when you already have bought the CD2, a couple of months ago. I knew when i bought CD2 that this would not be optimal, and was thinking on it as a "trial software", allowing me to play around with it until CD3 came out, and that was partially the reason for buying that old package...

    Have a good one :)


    If you bought the software a couple of months ago, you got a CD3 preorder, so you shouldn't pay for a new one. We've sent out emails to all customers who didn't ask to be on the exclusion list telling them this. If you have bought one, we will refund you. You can download your CD3 from your original order page. Please email Ralf, and he'll sort you out.

    For more information (in particular retail customers), see the upgrade info page.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Posted By: olona
    Is there a way to get the software CD3 when you already have bought the CD2, a couple of months ago. I knew when i bought CD2 that this would not be optimal, and was thinking on it as a "trial software", allowing me to play around with it until CD3 came out, and that was partially the reason for buying that old package...
    If you bought CD2 after June 6th, 2007, you are entitle to a free upgrade. To get this free upgrade, just locate your old confirmation page for the CD2, and a CD3 download will have magically appeared on that page. If you don't have the URL/original email, you can request to have your order history resent from the Tracking Page.
    If you bought it before June 6th, 2007, that is definately more than "a couple of months ago", and in that case, you will need to purchase the upgrade.
    • CommentAuthorolona
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Thanks for the quick reply Monsen.

    I did log in on my "Registered Products" page, and and i ordered it in march. So, should be within the couple of months ago :-) It looks like i only get a CC3 Compatibility Updates. Is this the one? My internet connection doesn't work back home, and I am at work now, so i cannot test it...

    Thanks :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008 edited
     
    If you ordered it in March, you should get a free update. But you need to check the order confirmation page (for your CD2 purchase), not the registration page, to find the CD3 download. Both the download and serial for CD3 should be there. If it isn't there, you should contact PF directly. And no, it is NOT the compatibility update you're after here.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSimon Rogers
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008 edited
     
    TheElf and I have resolved our differences, so the matter is closed.

    Please take any other questions to another appropriate thread.