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    • CommentAuthorroy.denton
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2020
     
    I have finally finished tinkering with my Harn style for CC3+ by Profantasy. I uploaded the zip file to my web page. If you have CC3+ and want to give it a try here is the link to my download page with the file.

    http://theharniac.net/downloads/other_downloads.htm
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2020
     
    You really shouldn't include a fcw32.pal file. This will override the default palette in CC3+, and affect all maps without an embedded palette.

    The correct way to handle this is to embed your custom palette into the templates that need it.
    • CommentAuthorroy.denton
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2020
     
    I did do that. So I can delete this from the zip file.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2020
     
    Yea, that would be the best approach. Or even better, rename it to harn.pal so people can load it manually if they want, without it overwriting the default palette. (Remember to update the documentation in either case)
  1.  
    I noticed the only wizard template you have was "Harnic Atlas (metric)". Since I'm not familiar with Harn at all should there be other wizard templates? Also one of the ordinary templates is labeled "Harnic Atlas Stardard (metric)". This is a typo, right? Finally the documentation file should either be on the top level of the zip archive beside the CC3Plus folder or inside a Documentation folder contained by the CC3Plus one (with a read.me text file at the top level or a zip file comment detailing installation and copyrights) so the main folder can be quickly unzipped into the CC3Plus data directory for faster installation. BTW since the pdf is obviously generated from a Word file you should try to limit the ToC levels to 3 (see Microsoft Help for details).
    • CommentAuthorroy.denton
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2020
     
    Most Harn maps are based on standard sizes. Since someone may want to focus on larger or smaller atlas areas I added the wizard for that. Almost all local maps align vertically, but I saw a need for a horizontal layout of reversed proportions. The 104 x 100 kilometer atlas is the standard size of Harnic regional map grids. The 121 x 100 I made because of areas like the one I built that had a piece of land by the ocean that extended into a grid that would have been all ocean. The interior maps are all a standard size. This does not mean you have to use the whole area for a smaller building.

    That answers the Harn specific issues.

    Since this is the first time I have done something like this I appreciate the ideas for setting up the zip file and will look at updating it to do so.

    Why limit the TOC? Just curious.
    • CommentAuthortaustinoc
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2020
     
    Posted By: roy.denton
    Why limit the TOC? Just curious.


    Because it's 21 pages? (The TOC is longer than the accompanying instructions for a lot of annuals for CC3+.)

    I'm not sure limiting to thee levels will shorten it much, though. There's just a lot there.
    • CommentAuthorroy.denton
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2020
     
    That there is. It took me almost six months of actual work to just get this the way it is. I found the more detail each style got the more fills and symbols were required.
  2.  
    Most of the fourth level entries are just step titles. You might want to limit it to two levels but that could make the ToC look more like an outline. You can also create PDF bookmarks from the ToC if you click the Options button when you Save As or Export to a PDF and select Create bookmarks using. Then, choose Headings or, if you added bookmarks to your document, Word Bookmarks. (I'm not sure if the PDF bookmarks will include all the headings or just the ones in the ToC.)
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2020
     
    Roy, I've just downloaded this for testing. I won't have a chance to look at it much until next week but wanted you to know that I'm excited to try it out. I've always loved Harn maps and have used several Harnic supplements in my original world as inspiration. I'll let you know what I think once I've had a chance to play around with it a bit. :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020
     
    What I usually do with TOC's, such as in the manual and Tome, is to limit them to three levels, and then in the documentation itself, make sure that those three levels are used sensibly. Sometimes, I will create a larger grouping chapter just to push the contents down a bit in the hierarchy just to make sure it doesn't end up in the TOC, and in rare cases, deliberately set something as level 4, even if it is directly below a level 2 heading.

    To take an example from your documentation, if you look at the very end of the TOC, there are multiple appendix entries, that have sub-entries for step 1, step 2, etc. These are not very helpful to have in a TOC, because they don't really tell the user anything. There is no indication what step 1 is anyway.

    The TOC works best when it is a high-level overview of the main sections in the document, not every single heading in the document. Remember, it isn't very helpful if people skip over it because it is to large to quickly find what you're after.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020
     
    I am not a Hârn mapper, so I don't know what to look for, so I just did a general test, and the things I tested seems to work mostly fine so far.

    - You should consider putting all your templates into the Wizard templates, especially since you don't have that many. Remember, a Wizard template can be locked down so that users can't change the dimensions. The advantage here is that this is where people look for templates these days, and not everyone will be reading the manual from cover to cover to see what is available. I often forget to check the predefined templates myself.
    - Maybe it is just me who drew the vegetable plot far larger than anyone making a real Hârn map would do, but I noticed it uses the escarpment command to make a fence around it, and the default limit of 1000 entities wasn't enough to go around the area. If you expect people to draw large such areas, perhaps up this setting in the stored config.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020
     
    - The symbol catalog @Symbols\Harnic Local\HL_Coast.FSC contains symbols with incorrect paths, so they show up as red X'es, also affects the corresponding 'All' catalog
    - @Symbols\Harnic Interior BW\HI_Odds and Ends.FSC (with corresponding All catalog) also have this issue for the log and charcoal symbols
    - Same with @Symbols\Harnic Interior Color\HI_Goods and Tools.FSC for the anvil and tools symbols


    Just note that with bitmap path errors like these, make sure you fix it correctly and don't take any shortcuts. the reason for this is that once a bitmap file has been released with a given path, it is impossible to change it later without breaking peoples maps, so it is important that you update the catalogs to use symbol inside the existing Harn directories you are already distributing, rather than just simply release the images in the User folder where the catalogs currently point, that will just make this more difficult to maintain in the long run.
    • CommentAuthorroy.denton
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020
     
    Thanks Monson. First real feedback thus far. Yes, vegetable plots are usually small, not more than acre usually. But updating that setting is a good idea.

    I can do that with the templates. How or where do I look to lock them?

    Can you explain the last paragraph a bit? These were tied to that directory location on my computer and display correctly.

    Again, thank you for the constructive feedback.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020 edited
     
    I can do that with the templates. How or where do I look to lock them?

    Locking the Size is done by giving the template a map note called Resize with the word Fixed as the text


    Can you explain the last paragraph a bit? These were tied to that directory location on my computer and display correctly.

    For example, the Nivik - 30' symbol from the HL_Coast symbol catalog is using an image located at:
    @Symbols\User\Ships\Nivik_VH.PNG

    But you don't distribute anything to the User subfolder in your .zip file.

    That Image, Nivik_VH.png, don't seem to be part of the package at all.

    My last comment was meant to indicate that it is important to keep your images together in the actual harnic folder, so you should copy the missing images to the appropriate harnic folder (like @Symbols\Harnic Local\Harnic) and update the symbol catalog to point there, as opposed to just distributing the content of the User folder, as this will spread your images out over multiple places in the system, which is messy. Just including the User folder is the easy option, but it is not the good one. And if you do that, you need to keep them like that for all eternity, because you cannot move images of released products, that breaks maps made with previous versions, which is bad.
    • CommentAuthorroy.denton
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020
     
    I totally forgot I had them in a separate folder. I can fix that. Need to check some of my other add on symbols also.

    Thank you
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020
     
    Concerning the templates... Yes, please make wizards for all, and is there a reason that you want to lock the dimensions? Does Harn not permit different sized areas for their maps? Or am I misunderstanding what is being discussed here?
    • CommentAuthorroy.denton
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020 edited
     
    These are the standard sizes used. Smaller ones for interior are made, but usually within the current map. I could allow changing the local and interior sizes. I was designing these to meet what has been standard within the game for quite some time. If I allow the change, I will have to do away with the title bar. It is designed for printing out to letter sized paper.

    As a post script to this, there is nothing that prevents a user from modifying a template to meet their own needs. Like I did with the horizontal local template. Every Harnic local map I have seen has always been vertical. That was not an option for the map I was working on. The default vertical maps are because most of these are designed to be printed on letter sized paper in a binder and most people like an image they don’t need to turn sideways. But that was too limiting for me.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020
     
    Posted By: ShessarConcerning the templates... Yes, please make wizards for all, and is there a reason that you want to lock the dimensions? Does Harn not permit different sized areas for their maps? Or am I misunderstanding what is being discussed here?


    I'm finding some of this confusing as well.

    TOC ?
    • CommentAuthorelvwood
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020
     
    Thank you so much for this, Roy! I won't be much use as a beta tester right now but if/when I get properly back into mapping I will certainly be giving it a go.

    I'll second the suggestion to limit the TOC to three levels, and add the following: eliminate the space between lines in the TOC (all it does is add ~50% to the length) and make it two-column. If you can get it down to three sides (or better still two) it will actually be much more useful. I tried to find the TOC link for part 2 (since I'm most interested in local maps) and scrolled past it twice, then found it when I was on the verge of searching instead, so at the moment it's just too much.

    The installation instructions were clear, and a glance at Part 2 makes me think you've been clear and thorough describing the tools. The start of a major new section could do with being more obvious, I think - e.g., "Special Agricultural Fills with border elements" on p.81 kind of gets lost.

    Are the structures compatible with any of the City Designer tools, e.g., smart aligning to roads or usable in random streets?

    Anyway, thanks again!
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020
     
    Posted By: roy.dentonThese are the standard sizes used. Smaller ones for interior are made, but usually within the current map. I could allow changing the local and interior sizes. I was designing these to meet what has been standard within the game for quite some time. If I allow the change, I will have to do away with the title bar. It is designed for printing out to letter sized paper.

    As a post script to this, there is nothing that prevents a user from modifying a template to meet their own needs. Like I did with the horizontal local template. Every Harnic local map I have seen has always been vertical. That was not an option for the map I was working on. The default vertical maps are because most of these are designed to be printed on letter sized paper in a binder and most people like an image they don’t need to turn sideways. But that was too limiting for me.


    I understand, however (and this is just the opinion of someone who might use this style for maps not in a Harnic setting) while the predefined templates should of course be set to standard Harnic dimensions, the wizards should give me the freedom to make what ever size map I want, without having to delete and redo the map border and background. Again this is just the opinion of a generic CC user so take it for what it is...an opinion. :)
    • CommentAuthorroy.denton
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2020
     
    I plan on relooking at the TOC. I didn’t know about the spaces. I will look at that. I am looking into the wizard issue. I have one more week of holiday, then it is back to teaching summer school for three weeks. Not too taxing but it does limit my time. I also have to prepare for classes next week.

    Just saying it may take me a bit to get all this addressed.

    Thank you all for your ideas and comments.
    • CommentAuthorroy.denton
    • CommentTime12 hours ago edited
     
    I have uploaded an updated file with the changes mentioned above.

    http://theharniac.net/downloads/other_downloads.htm
    • CommentAuthorsuntzu
    • CommentTime9 hours ago
     
    getting a file not found
  3.  
    I should have known better doing things like this late at night.

    I fixed the file name, so it works now.
  4.  
    I noticed there is no PDF manual included in this ZIP file. It could be placed in the Documentation subfolder.
    • CommentAuthorroy.denton
    • CommentTime31 minutes ago
     
    Hmm, it should have been included. I will check later this morning when I get back to my personal computer.