If you have doubts about tinkering inside the case, I'd recommend finding a friend who has some experience, or going to a reliable shop. You have to be careful and very meticulous about it, and if you're not . . . bad things can happen. One guy I know tried to upgrade, IIRC, the CPU, and touched the wrong thing. By the time he was done, the only components he didn't have to replace were the CD-ROM drive and the case. So caution is in order.
If it's one of the little tiny cases, be sure to ask about room for additional drives. There may not be any. That makes upgrading drives more trouble, though it's still practical to do.
Noise might be a problem. I can be working 18 hours in a row if I'm really 'into' something. Noisy fans eventually give me a headache. I find laptops generally quieter than towers/desktops, but that's probably because being thinner and horizontal heat dissipation is more efficient and the fan might not have to work so hard? I don't know.
I will ask if there is any option on the size of the box.
I'd better explain my apparently irrational fear of meddling with electronics. I said I was afraid of breaking them, but not why.
I've learned not to touch electronic things if at all possible. I seem to both deliver and receive static shocks to and from anything that already has some kind of electronic field about it or the capacity to conduct electricity. I thought it was bad earthing on the pipework when I started getting shocks from the bathroom taps a couple of years back, but the plumber said no. Its got gradually worse the older I get. My latest trick is triggering audible cracking noises and sometimes even sparks in dim light every time I forget about it and grab the edge of the car door to shut it, or if I point too close to the computer screen. Very amusing for the others in the training room, but actually quite painful for me! LOL
So you can see why I have no intention of opening any machine. I'd probably kill it... or myself.
Probably the clothes or shoes you use that assists you in building up static electricity. This stuff is why you always ground/discharge yourself before working inside a computer.
Generally, a desktop can be much quieter than a laptop, because you can mount bigger fans that move more air more efficiently at slower speeds. My desktop is MUCH quieter than my laptop.
As for PC size, looks like the one you linked is a standard sized PC, and not a small form factor thing, looks to have plenty of room, and is more suitable under a desk than on top of it. Allows for more fans and a quieter experience. It is even a "silent" type cabinet.
I also just read (having been reminded of the problem by thinking about it) that people with long hair can accidentally charge themselves up by running their fingers through their hair. I've not had the money to pay for regular hair cuts for 3 years now (women pay about 4x what men do for a cut), so I decided just to let it grow rather than struggle with cutting it myself and looking humorously lopsided. Its nearly waist length now. Maybe that's where the charge is coming from, as I sweep it out of my eyes or just after I've brushed it and put it up out of the way.
Cheap shoes don't help. Plastic soles. Not so much an insulator, but definitely possible sources of static charge as I walk across carpeted rooms. But most of my clothes are cotton.
I just read that some techs wear metal bracelets with wires to the floor to make sure they are discharged! Visions of shackles...
Anyway. Once the machine is bought I probably won't be able to upgrade anything for a couple of years, so I won't be needing to open it, and when/if I get to that stage there is a small shop down town where there's a man who could do it for me - if that doesn't invalidate the 3 yr guarantee. I must remember to ask about that, since it would surely be better to do that than have to ship it back to the supplier with all the risk of damage that would entail.
Professionals do commonly use grounding wrist straps (don't try to make you own, they're quite cheap), and for good reason. What you describe would very likely destroy anything you touch otherwise.
But really, you're probably better off having the shop do it, when the day arrives, if possible. (And if they can't do it without voiding the warranty, neither can you.)
One peripheral that you really don't want to skimp on is a good uninterruptible power supply.
If you regularly have static electricity problems, it might be worth investing a few dollars into a grounding mat to sit under or near your keyboard so that it's the first thing that you touch when using the system. Also, touch the grounding mat with a ring, coin, or knuckle to avoid the unpleasant shock through tender body areas like your fingertips.
You might also want to get a filter that you can change on the case air intake, especially if you have cats or dogs. Even with a filter, you'll likely still need to clean out the system a couple of times a year because the fans get choked with dust if you don't. Accumulating a lot of dust in the case is a good way to shorten the life of any system.
As far as the actual computer parts go, I do agree with the other folks that you can probably get by quite well with lower-spec CPU and video card than the defaults listed for the scan pc systems. The current crop of i3 processors like the 8350 are all quad-core units, whereas the older ones like in your laptop are only dual-core units. An i5 would have more processor cores and be about 10% faster clock speed, but you probably wouldn't notice a huge difference between the i3 and i5 for many of your stated workloads. A GeForge GTX 1650 is a bit cheaper than their default Quadro P1000, but is substantially cheaper (it's also newer technology and much more efficient). Depending on your monitor, you may need an adapter to go from any of the modern graphics cards to the monitor.
I am definitely going to have to revise this thread and have it open as I speak with them later today!
I've often considered a filter for my laptop, but had no idea that these things even existed. Please don't laugh, but I had even thought of getting a piece of very low density foam to sit it on, but was afraid that would actually do more damage by straining the fans than an accumulation of dust. This place is very dusty. I don't know why. Its probably the 50 yr old carpets and curtains...
Ok. Stuck at home by an electrical fault on my car, so I've phoned Scan and asked for a quote on a custom build based on that the 3XS WI4000 Design, but cut down to £1000 instead of £1400.
I was told I would have the quote by the end of the day.
I have seen folks who put their PC main unit into a box and put a high-quality disposable furnace filter and fan across the front of the box (there is a vent in the back, of course). It looks a bit silly, but it keeps the dust out and is easily replaced. A Google search for "air filter pc case" will turn up any number of examples of putting filters on cases. You can get by without a filter, but you need to clean the main system air paths much more often if you don't have a filter. Using something like compressed air blown backwards and forwards through the system vents will clean things out. An image search for "dusty pc case" will show you things that nobody should ever see...
I don't really worry about what real world things look like Joe, as long as they work - so its very possible I will try to sort something out along those lines.
What astounds me is that even though we put filters on everything else these days, PC's don't come with built in removable filter plates. It seems like perfect madness not to have a filter on a PC, when there's one on every air conditioning unit and tumble dryer. They don't hold a lifetime of important data, but they are much better cared for.
What astounds me is that even though we put filters on everything else these days, PC's don't come with built in removable filter plates.
They require maintenance, and people are idiots. All filters do. But if you don't clean or replace your furnace filter, the worst you normally face is that your furnace stops working very well until you notice. But a clogged filter on a PC stops all air flow, and overheating becomes a very serious issue. Modern CPUs are more tolerant of it, but it can still damage things.
(Mind you, fans clogged with dust can do the same thing, but it takes a lot longer, and the computer may well get replaced before that happens.)
There are PCs that come with dust filters, designed for high dust environments, like cash registers.
Well... its what we call Close of Play here in the UK, and I was promised a quote by now. In fact the salesman assured me 3 times he would get back to me today, when it wasn't something I asked for. I didn't demand an answer at all. I posed it as a question - would it be possible to make a build based on that model for the money I could afford.
It was he who kept telling me I would have my quote by now.
It hasn't arrived, so I'm beginning to wonder if I was asking the impossible, or if he thought I was just a time waster.
Was it unreasonable to ask for a less impressive build for just over 2/3 the money?
Posted By: LoopysueWas it unreasonable to ask for a less impressive build for just over 2/3 the money?
Really depends on how much leeway the sellers are in making something completely custom. Based on the configuratior, I struggled pushing that PC down to 1K because there where some components that couldn't be removed using the configurator.
Here is another option that may be much better for you though:
It is the previous generation processor, but there isn't that much performance difference. And this allows you to get an i5 instead of an i3, offsetting that difference easily. It also comes with 16 GB ram. There is no discrete graphics card in this though, which mean you will just need to use the built-in intel graphics card. Won't be as good for hardware acceleration as a dedicated card, but then again, only certain workloads would benefit from that in any case. It is fitted with a regular SSD instead of an NVMe. It is not quite as fancy as the other one you picked, but after ribbing the other one of stuff to get down to £1000, this is probably a better option.
That might just be the way forward. I'm puzzled, though, about the fan-less cooling system. How on Earth?
I've added it to my bookmarks.
Taustinoc - Maybe the led should light up a whole panel with a message about the filter being choked and telling the user to get up of their B and do something about it :P
Yea, I am not familiar with that one. I just assume that these guys know what they are doing here. I am assuming it will work fine for all normal use though, which is your use case.
I'll see if I can find out a bit more about those things. See if they are reckoned to be as reliable as a fan. Some of the Blender work I've done in the past has been pretty intensive and taken up to 18 hours to process.
Well, this page is a bit like reading one of those bitesize revision sheets. Its not very long, and it only goes so far into the detail, but to sum it up fanless PCs are fine unless you live in the Andes, a hot desert, or put a single piece of paper on top of the bit where the heat is being dissipated.
They use direct contact between the CPU and a copper or aluminium component and seal the gap with thermal paste to get rid of the tiny air gaps that don't conduct heat so well and might cause localised overheating on the microscopic level.
One would think that manufacturers would make the dissipation surface vertical (ie the back of the computer) if mindlessly dumping your shopping list on top of the dissipation surface could overheat the system, but it seems that engineers have not yet managed to work out how to dissipate heat efficiently through a vertical surface like that, or they wouldn't have to worry about telling people not to do it.
Posted By: LoopysueTaustinoc - Maybe the led should light up a whole panel with a message about the filter being choked and telling the user to get up of their B and do something about it :P
Sadly, what many of them would do is demand a refund because the computer doesn't work right. Really.
As for fanless cooling, my first guess would be a Peltier cooler. It's a well known technology, but apparently not very energy efficient. They don't have a very good reputation as a result. It also mentions using low power components to reduce heat generated, so if that's what they're using, they've put some thought into it.
Or they could be using something completely different. There are other possibilities.
My main concern with that kind of heat pump arrangement would be the possibility of condensation at the CPU end of the arrangement, since there is potential for the CPU to end up being colder than the ambient temperature of the room. This might be rare in a home with an air conditioner, but I do not have one, so the air in my room is just as damp as outside - probably worse because I'm sitting in here with the windows shut against the cold right now.
I'm hoping that the one in the machine that Remy picked out isn't electronically assisted this way.
You could also go for a regular fan-based one, like in this setup (this is a completely different setup though, since you couldn't change the cooler on the other one. But I set it up with a Noctua cooler, which is one of the beste coolers when it comes to noise/performance. It wasn't the cheapest one, so it is possible to go even cheaper with another cooler. Again, this setup is without a graphics card, and with a very simple motherboard, but it is probably quite suitable for your uses. This setup also have a latest gen i5.
(Note that I am just pulling reasonable builds from the site you first provided. I don't know these guys, and can't really recommend anything other than "this looks reasonable", as I haven't tested all the components myself.)
Given that I seem to have been given the brush off by their sales people, I'm a little under-impressed with them right now. If I decide that one of the builds you've pointed out just happens to be the one for me, I will probably take all the information from their site and either pay someone else to make it for me, or shave my head, get all the gear, and make it myself.
This lack of response is typical of salesmen who are paid performance bonuses by how much profit they've made the company each month. Its dead wrong, but perfectly legal, and more than sufficient motivation for employees struggling to pay mortgages to dump the little guys like me by the wayside.
I might be wrong. Lets see if I get a response from them in the next 24 hrs.
…
Jim - The cooler Taustinoc linked to was electronically assisted heat transfer - a heat pump. It's capable of cooling the CPU so well that it starts to condense moisture out of the air like when you leave the fridge open by mistake overnight and it all gets iced up.
LOL! What boggles MY mind is the idea of cooling computers with liquid Nitrogen. Apparently its been done, but can you imagine the consequences of a sudden coolant leak? :O
Liquid cooling requires more maintenance and attention to prevent just that.
Personally, I use a simple closed loop water cooling solution for my computer. Keeps the computer both cool and quiet, without needing to worry too much about it. Same for the server, but with a bigger radiator for even better cooling.
I do have a friend with a high end Noctua fan cooler however, and those fans are amazing. Just as quiet as my water cooler, and just as effective (and he overclocks HARD).
Oh its just like a car radiator system, only replace the engine block with the CPU and subtract the water/oil heat exchange because the temperature difference isn't as great.
Of course. How obvious!
I'm currently watching YouTube videos about how to build your own PC for total newbs
Comments
If it's one of the little tiny cases, be sure to ask about room for additional drives. There may not be any. That makes upgrading drives more trouble, though it's still practical to do.
I will ask if there is any option on the size of the box.
I'd better explain my apparently irrational fear of meddling with electronics. I said I was afraid of breaking them, but not why.
I've learned not to touch electronic things if at all possible. I seem to both deliver and receive static shocks to and from anything that already has some kind of electronic field about it or the capacity to conduct electricity. I thought it was bad earthing on the pipework when I started getting shocks from the bathroom taps a couple of years back, but the plumber said no. Its got gradually worse the older I get. My latest trick is triggering audible cracking noises and sometimes even sparks in dim light every time I forget about it and grab the edge of the car door to shut it, or if I point too close to the computer screen. Very amusing for the others in the training room, but actually quite painful for me! LOL
So you can see why I have no intention of opening any machine. I'd probably kill it... or myself.
This stuff is why you always ground/discharge yourself before working inside a computer.
Generally, a desktop can be much quieter than a laptop, because you can mount bigger fans that move more air more efficiently at slower speeds. My desktop is MUCH quieter than my laptop.
As for PC size, looks like the one you linked is a standard sized PC, and not a small form factor thing, looks to have plenty of room, and is more suitable under a desk than on top of it. Allows for more fans and a quieter experience.
It is even a "silent" type cabinet.
Cheap shoes don't help. Plastic soles. Not so much an insulator, but definitely possible sources of static charge as I walk across carpeted rooms. But most of my clothes are cotton.
I just read that some techs wear metal bracelets with wires to the floor to make sure they are discharged! Visions of shackles...
Anyway. Once the machine is bought I probably won't be able to upgrade anything for a couple of years, so I won't be needing to open it, and when/if I get to that stage there is a small shop down town where there's a man who could do it for me - if that doesn't invalidate the 3 yr guarantee. I must remember to ask about that, since it would surely be better to do that than have to ship it back to the supplier with all the risk of damage that would entail.
But really, you're probably better off having the shop do it, when the day arrives, if possible. (And if they can't do it without voiding the warranty, neither can you.)
If you regularly have static electricity problems, it might be worth investing a few dollars into a grounding mat to sit under or near your keyboard so that it's the first thing that you touch when using the system. Also, touch the grounding mat with a ring, coin, or knuckle to avoid the unpleasant shock through tender body areas like your fingertips.
You might also want to get a filter that you can change on the case air intake, especially if you have cats or dogs. Even with a filter, you'll likely still need to clean out the system a couple of times a year because the fans get choked with dust if you don't. Accumulating a lot of dust in the case is a good way to shorten the life of any system.
As far as the actual computer parts go, I do agree with the other folks that you can probably get by quite well with lower-spec CPU and video card than the defaults listed for the scan pc systems. The current crop of i3 processors like the 8350 are all quad-core units, whereas the older ones like in your laptop are only dual-core units. An i5 would have more processor cores and be about 10% faster clock speed, but you probably wouldn't notice a huge difference between the i3 and i5 for many of your stated workloads. A GeForge GTX 1650 is a bit cheaper than their default Quadro P1000, but is substantially cheaper (it's also newer technology and much more efficient). Depending on your monitor, you may need an adapter to go from any of the modern graphics cards to the monitor.
Thank you very much
I am definitely going to have to revise this thread and have it open as I speak with them later today!
I've often considered a filter for my laptop, but had no idea that these things even existed. Please don't laugh, but I had even thought of getting a piece of very low density foam to sit it on, but was afraid that would actually do more damage by straining the fans than an accumulation of dust. This place is very dusty. I don't know why. Its probably the 50 yr old carpets and curtains...
I was told I would have the quote by the end of the day.
We'll see what they come back with
I don't really worry about what real world things look like Joe, as long as they work - so its very possible I will try to sort something out along those lines.
What astounds me is that even though we put filters on everything else these days, PC's don't come with built in removable filter plates. It seems like perfect madness not to have a filter on a PC, when there's one on every air conditioning unit and tumble dryer. They don't hold a lifetime of important data, but they are much better cared for.
(Mind you, fans clogged with dust can do the same thing, but it takes a lot longer, and the computer may well get replaced before that happens.)
There are PCs that come with dust filters, designed for high dust environments, like cash registers.
It was he who kept telling me I would have my quote by now.
It hasn't arrived, so I'm beginning to wonder if I was asking the impossible, or if he thought I was just a time waster.
Was it unreasonable to ask for a less impressive build for just over 2/3 the money?
Here is another option that may be much better for you though:
It is the previous generation processor, but there isn't that much performance difference. And this allows you to get an i5 instead of an i3, offsetting that difference easily. It also comes with 16 GB ram.
There is no discrete graphics card in this though, which mean you will just need to use the built-in intel graphics card. Won't be as good for hardware acceleration as a dedicated card, but then again, only certain workloads would benefit from that in any case.
It is fitted with a regular SSD instead of an NVMe.
It is not quite as fancy as the other one you picked, but after ribbing the other one of stuff to get down to £1000, this is probably a better option.
If you've never done IT work, you can't possibly grasp how clueless users can be, and how eager they are to blame anyone but themselves.
That might just be the way forward. I'm puzzled, though, about the fan-less cooling system. How on Earth?
I've added it to my bookmarks.
Taustinoc - Maybe the led should light up a whole panel with a message about the filter being choked and telling the user to get up of their B and do something about it :P
They use direct contact between the CPU and a copper or aluminium component and seal the gap with thermal paste to get rid of the tiny air gaps that don't conduct heat so well and might cause localised overheating on the microscopic level.
One would think that manufacturers would make the dissipation surface vertical (ie the back of the computer) if mindlessly dumping your shopping list on top of the dissipation surface could overheat the system, but it seems that engineers have not yet managed to work out how to dissipate heat efficiently through a vertical surface like that, or they wouldn't have to worry about telling people not to do it.
https://www.logicsupply.com/company/io-hub/fanless-pc-stay-cool/
As for fanless cooling, my first guess would be a Peltier cooler. It's a well known technology, but apparently not very energy efficient. They don't have a very good reputation as a result. It also mentions using low power components to reduce heat generated, so if that's what they're using, they've put some thought into it.
Or they could be using something completely different. There are other possibilities.
I'm hoping that the one in the machine that Remy picked out isn't electronically assisted this way.
You could also go for a regular fan-based one, like in this setup (this is a completely different setup though, since you couldn't change the cooler on the other one. But I set it up with a Noctua cooler, which is one of the beste coolers when it comes to noise/performance. It wasn't the cheapest one, so it is possible to go even cheaper with another cooler.
Again, this setup is without a graphics card, and with a very simple motherboard, but it is probably quite suitable for your uses. This setup also have a latest gen i5.
(Note that I am just pulling reasonable builds from the site you first provided. I don't know these guys, and can't really recommend anything other than "this looks reasonable", as I haven't tested all the components myself.)
The laptops I have worked on, the cooling fan speeds up when the CPU gets warm above a set temperature.
I'm learning about these people as well.
Given that I seem to have been given the brush off by their sales people, I'm a little under-impressed with them right now. If I decide that one of the builds you've pointed out just happens to be the one for me, I will probably take all the information from their site and either pay someone else to make it for me, or shave my head, get all the gear, and make it myself.
This lack of response is typical of salesmen who are paid performance bonuses by how much profit they've made the company each month. Its dead wrong, but perfectly legal, and more than sufficient motivation for employees struggling to pay mortgages to dump the little guys like me by the wayside.
I might be wrong. Lets see if I get a response from them in the next 24 hrs.
…
Jim - The cooler Taustinoc linked to was electronically assisted heat transfer - a heat pump. It's capable of cooling the CPU so well that it starts to condense moisture out of the air like when you leave the fridge open by mistake overnight and it all gets iced up.
I have seen ones that used a liquid to cool the computer, but that boggles my mind and I prefer to not do that.
Personally, I use a simple closed loop water cooling solution for my computer. Keeps the computer both cool and quiet, without needing to worry too much about it.
Same for the server, but with a bigger radiator for even better cooling.
I do have a friend with a high end Noctua fan cooler however, and those fans are amazing. Just as quiet as my water cooler, and just as effective (and he overclocks HARD).
This is the one in my computer
And this is in my server (not easily spotted, but the fans are also larger here, with 140mm vs 120 in the one above)
Of course. How obvious!
I'm currently watching YouTube videos about how to build your own PC for total newbs