Perfect! Simple and easy to understand. And what about in the Import PNG window? Highest Resolution? In the tutorial in the Tome the building symbol is sized at 16? So is 16 the highest resolution for CD symbols in general, and all should be set at that? I believe in a video tutorial I saw the instructor said if it was unknown to set Highest Resolution at 100, but wouldn't that make a smaller than normal symbol if it's supposed to be 16?
So, out of curiosity, then (and so I needn't ask the same thing another time), what, then, are the symbol sizes and highest resolutions for the other PF programs? DD, Overland, Perspective, etc?
(I seem to have some issue with Whispers. A lot of my posts go to Whispers., as that one did! I don't think its the forum but something here on my end doing it...)
Posted By: ScottAIn the tutorial in the Tome the building symbol is sized at 16? So is 16 the highest resolution for CD symbols in general, and all should be set at that?
As the tome tutorial explains, it uses 16 because I was working on the Hi resolution of the symbol instead of the VH one. As long as you start out with a symbol that is 40 pixels/drawing unit, then you should also enter 40 for highest resolution, as that is the proper resolution for city symbols, as long as you work with VH quality. But if you skip making the highest resolution one, and start at the Hi one (which is more than detailed enough for anything but very close zooms), then the value would be 16, which is the resolution of HI City symbols.
As for setting an unknown value to 100, I don't think that is a good idea. If you don't know it, just open the image in an image editor, and measure how many pixels make up what you interpret to be 1 foot instead, thus getting you a much better approximation. Because as you say, this indeed effects scale, so if you willy-nilly enters 100 and the symbol isn't of that quality, they will come out far too small.
The values for different types of symbols (VH versions) are as follows: Overland: 20 City: 40 Dungeon: 100 Characters: 500 Of course, these values assume that the symbols are of this quality in the first place. For example, if I remember correctly, the symbols from the CSUAC/Dundjinni Archives are only 40 pixels/foot, so they should be imported using this value.
Okay, great. Something like this would make a very handy chart or spreadsheet for the next updated version of the Tome, maybe as an appendix. Just a thought.
When I export the symbols out of CC3+ into GIMP I use the Save as Rectangle PNG setting. So what would be my optimal settings in the OPTIONS windows (I want to make VH symbols)? Do I go with different settings per item (400x400/40 px/inch for a 10x10 cottage, for example)?
And finally (hopefully) the scale settings in GIMP...so a 10x10 cottage would be scaled 400x400 and the px/inch would be 40? And something 100x50 for an overland map would be 2000x1000 and 20 px/inch? Is that correct? Am I understanding it (remember, I'm stoopid with tech until I KNOW it!).
If you start with CC3+ then yes, you need to use different settings for each symbol. For city symbols, it needs to be 40 px/foot, so yes, 400x400 pixels for a 10x10 cottage.
But don't get pixels/inch into this in any way, it is completely irrelevant. Your only consideration is how large the image should appear in CC3+, so that still means 400 by 400 pixels for that 10 by 10 feet hut. And yes, for that 100 by 50 mile overland symbols, that would indeed be 2000 by 1000, and again, don't try to translate those 20 pixels/drawing unit to 20 pixels/inch in Gimp, those are not related in any way, shape or form
And I figured those numbers were all in the Tome already, I just thought also having a chart with all of them might be handier than going through each chapter. Was just a suggestion.
Oh, I did have one more question... So, short of going in and redoing custom symbol catalogs with the wrong scale, is there a way to fix that, say in the Symbol Manager? (The highest resolution thing -- changing those I used 100 for to their proper numbers, 20, 40, etc).
You'll find that chart with the raster symbol creation section in the main CC3+ section of the tome. Each section contains the required information for making that type of symbols, but I consolidated some information in the main chapter.
To fix scale issues from wrong import settings, just rescale the symbols in the catalog. You can do that from the symbol manager, juts select the symbols to scale and hit the scale button. For example, if you imported a symbol at 100 instead of 40, scale it up by 2.5.
So that when you select one of the symbols that have been scaled up in the Symbol Manager by 2.5, and then saved as part of a catalogue, they will appear at the right scale when the default symbol size of 1 is used to paste them in a map?
(Scott - you aren't the only one who gets confused about this! LOL!)
Oh, that's nice and simple. Thank you, I always end up taking the (very) long way around a problem. So it's a blessing to have such a font of knowledge to make PF life easier.
Posted By: LoopysueSo that when you select one of the symbols that have been scaled up in the Symbol Manager by 2.5, and then saved as part of a catalogue, they will appear at the right scale when the default symbol size of 1 is used to paste them in a map?
Yes, assuming you haven't used that symbol in the map earlier, since the map would be using the definition already in the map instead of your new rescaled one.
Can I just ask - that building that's curved with a cone at either end - is that a kind of flat roofed walkway between them?
Thanks!
That is a flat roof that connects two houses. I ran across it a couple times in my research although I don't know the reasoning, but I suspect it is to connect houses of extended family.
Often the connection was via a tunnel, with just a low roof over it. I have attached a few photos of mine taken in 2010 - not very good ones I'm afraid - it was drizzling at the time. But this is just Wow!! Scott.
Posted By: QuentenAny chance of making these available as separate png';s for us to use (non commercially, and not for sharing). Willing to pay a small amount for them.
Yes, absolutely that is the plan, whether PF is interested in them or the Community Atlas Pack (if they are wanted there). I did them for the PF community.
So it was brought to my attention that a couple of the buildings are flat with the shading apparently not working. They are all fine on my screen, so I tried saving them in a different format and they came out the same. Then I tried a screen capture and here you go, all working perfectly fine. So why would CC3+ not show them properly in a saved file? I kept the file size small so I could post here? Any thoughts?
It's not clear what the various souterrains (subterranean Iron Age settlement features) were for, as their form shows regional variants (sometimes reflected in different names still now - the Cornish example at Carn Euny Quenten showed is locally called a fougou instead), and the archaeological evidence for their use is either wholly lacking or ambiguous. It's plausible they were for some kind of food storage - cool and underground, if potentially damp, certainly. In a fantasy context, there seems no reason why variants like Scott's roof cover between two roundhouses shouldn't be available to mappers regardless of any real-world considerations, of course.
Might be nice to have a "skeleton"-roof version - so no thatch, just the timbers and wall-lines - as well, Scott, if only for the sake of completeness. And maybe some straight wattle fence panel/gate pieces?
Is the large house with the walkway round it based on a crannog style? It would certainly work that way if not, though it might need a small boat, perhaps a coracle or two, to go with it...
Look forward to the brochs next; you know how mappers are, always wanting more symbols ;D
That's a good idea, Wyvern, about just a skeleton structure. I did the in-progress build and the ruined building, so I suppose that's the only one left. It would take much time to knock that one out.
The large round with the decking is meant to be a village meetinghouse. I'd seen several examples of those before coming across the crannog building. Again, it would be easy enough to make a duplicate and add a small boat to indicate its aquatic purpose.
I'll get working on those two. I also have your rain trenches still in my head but I've not found a satisfactory way to make them yet.
Whatever I do with these symbols, I'll also include my thatch roofing fill to go along with it so that mappers could add more buildings of their own design and be completely compatible. That's something that's always bothered me about some (not all) of the CD3 premade buildings -- there is no way to match them, so if you use them they stick out unless that's all you use.
In answer to your question, Scott - it may be that some of the lower resolution map files have gone a bit wrong owing to the manual alterations that were necessary to prevent seams from appearing in the cone shapes (due to the antialiasing used by CC3 in the production of the lower res images blurring the line between red=0 and red=255).
If the map file is only just a single pixel a different size to the image file in any of those image-map pairs, that particular resolution won't work at all. It will be as if there is no map file at that resolution.
You can identify which files are causing the problem either by viewing the CC3 map at different fixed resolutions, or by comparing the pixel dimensions of the image pairs in the folder. You can see the pixel size by hovering over the file.
If that isn't what's causing the problem I don't know what is. In that case I think we might need to wait for Remy to come back to lend us his genius thoughts on the matter. He always seems to know exactly what's wrong with a failing symbol effect at a glance.
A little thread necromancy seemed appropriate at this point, as this set of Scott's Celtic buildings has just been released by ProFantasy as an official extra for the CD3 add-on to CC3+. And delightful it is too! See this PF blog post for more details, if you haven't already. And if you already own CD3, you can collect, download and install this new symbol set from your PF Registration Page.
A great little set5, Scott, and I will be making a Celtic Hill fort for the Atlas (and my own world) with these very soon. Thank you so much both for your time and generosity, and above all your creative artistry.
Sorry, I'm not seeing it? I log in to my registration page, the downloads tab confirms that City Designer 3 is registered - but I can't seem to see a link to the Celtic stuff. Any pointers?
Comments
So, out of curiosity, then (and so I needn't ask the same thing another time), what, then, are the symbol sizes and highest resolutions for the other PF programs? DD, Overland, Perspective, etc?
As for setting an unknown value to 100, I don't think that is a good idea. If you don't know it, just open the image in an image editor, and measure how many pixels make up what you interpret to be 1 foot instead, thus getting you a much better approximation. Because as you say, this indeed effects scale, so if you willy-nilly enters 100 and the symbol isn't of that quality, they will come out far too small.
The values for different types of symbols (VH versions) are as follows:
Overland: 20
City: 40
Dungeon: 100
Characters: 500
Of course, these values assume that the symbols are of this quality in the first place. For example, if I remember correctly, the symbols from the CSUAC/Dundjinni Archives are only 40 pixels/foot, so they should be imported using this value.
When I export the symbols out of CC3+ into GIMP I use the Save as Rectangle PNG setting. So what would be my optimal settings in the OPTIONS windows (I want to make VH symbols)? Do I go with different settings per item (400x400/40 px/inch for a 10x10 cottage, for example)?
And finally (hopefully) the scale settings in GIMP...so a 10x10 cottage would be scaled 400x400 and the px/inch would be 40? And something 100x50 for an overland map would be 2000x1000 and 20 px/inch? Is that correct? Am I understanding it (remember, I'm stoopid with tech until I KNOW it!).
Thanks so very much for the tremendous help!!!
If you start with CC3+ then yes, you need to use different settings for each symbol. For city symbols, it needs to be 40 px/foot, so yes, 400x400 pixels for a 10x10 cottage.
But don't get pixels/inch into this in any way, it is completely irrelevant. Your only consideration is how large the image should appear in CC3+, so that still means 400 by 400 pixels for that 10 by 10 feet hut. And yes, for that 100 by 50 mile overland symbols, that would indeed be 2000 by 1000, and again, don't try to translate those 20 pixels/drawing unit to 20 pixels/inch in Gimp, those are not related in any way, shape or form
And I figured those numbers were all in the Tome already, I just thought also having a chart with all of them might be handier than going through each chapter. Was just a suggestion.
Oh, I did have one more question... So, short of going in and redoing custom symbol catalogs with the wrong scale, is there a way to fix that, say in the Symbol Manager? (The highest resolution thing -- changing those I used 100 for to their proper numbers, 20, 40, etc).
To fix scale issues from wrong import settings, just rescale the symbols in the catalog. You can do that from the symbol manager, juts select the symbols to scale and hit the scale button. For example, if you imported a symbol at 100 instead of 40, scale it up by 2.5.
(Scott - you aren't the only one who gets confused about this! LOL!)
I just threw this "map" together in a couple minutes just to use the building and fence symbols.
Can I just ask - that building that's curved with a cone at either end - is that a kind of flat roofed walkway between them?
That is a flat roof that connects two houses. I ran across it a couple times in my research although I don't know the reasoning, but I suspect it is to connect houses of extended family.
I have attached a few photos of mine taken in 2010 - not very good ones I'm afraid - it was drizzling at the time.
But this is just Wow!! Scott.
Here's the symbol set without background or shadows for a better view.
Might be nice to have a "skeleton"-roof version - so no thatch, just the timbers and wall-lines - as well, Scott, if only for the sake of completeness. And maybe some straight wattle fence panel/gate pieces?
Is the large house with the walkway round it based on a crannog style? It would certainly work that way if not, though it might need a small boat, perhaps a coracle or two, to go with it...
Look forward to the brochs next; you know how mappers are, always wanting more symbols ;D
The large round with the decking is meant to be a village meetinghouse. I'd seen several examples of those before coming across the crannog building. Again, it would be easy enough to make a duplicate and add a small boat to indicate its aquatic purpose.
I'll get working on those two. I also have your rain trenches still in my head but I've not found a satisfactory way to make them yet.
Whatever I do with these symbols, I'll also include my thatch roofing fill to go along with it so that mappers could add more buildings of their own design and be completely compatible. That's something that's always bothered me about some (not all) of the CD3 premade buildings -- there is no way to match them, so if you use them they stick out unless that's all you use.
If the map file is only just a single pixel a different size to the image file in any of those image-map pairs, that particular resolution won't work at all. It will be as if there is no map file at that resolution.
You can identify which files are causing the problem either by viewing the CC3 map at different fixed resolutions, or by comparing the pixel dimensions of the image pairs in the folder. You can see the pixel size by hovering over the file.
If that isn't what's causing the problem I don't know what is. In that case I think we might need to wait for Remy to come back to lend us his genius thoughts on the matter. He always seems to know exactly what's wrong with a failing symbol effect at a glance.
Thanks ProFantasy, and excellent work, Scott!
Down another level. Its not shown on the main download page, but inside the CD3 download popup window.