New to CC3+ and am finding it very unwelcoming...
So I decided to take a delve into this as I keep hearing how it's one of the best software tools to create maps and layouts and everything related to a campaign with more ease of functionality. I watched some videos, took some notes, and went with it. But now actually trying to use it? This honestly to me feels like the most counter intuitive user interface I've ever dealt with. I do understand that this isn't image editing software, I keep seeing that said here in the forums, and I didn't expect it to be with everything I saw about it. But I've used CAD programs in the past before, I use telemetry programs fairly consistently, and have a large amount of experience with software that people take one look at and wonder how someone can even use it. I keep going over and over and over the manuals, I keep trying to watch and watch and watch video after video after video. And no matter what, I can't even get what would seem to be the absolute simplest tasks to even come close to working properly. I can't do any kind of resizing that requires precision, I can't do any kind of scaling that requires precision, trying to line things up is absolutely impossible because even with quick move it just has no actual line up and just makes it look absolutely horrible. And then trying to work the sheets? That's entirely something else.
I've seen the work that this program can produce, and I want to be able to get to a level even considered close to be close to that. I don't want to just straight give up and say this is the worst program out there. But I shouldn't have to feel like I need to spend weeks just trying to figure out how to do something simple with $45 software that it takes 30 seconds to figure out in $700 software. And that's how this software is making me feel. Is there anything out there that I can read or look at that can actually help make sense of things that isn't going to use up every single bit of free time that I get (which isn't much)?
I've seen the work that this program can produce, and I want to be able to get to a level even considered close to be close to that. I don't want to just straight give up and say this is the worst program out there. But I shouldn't have to feel like I need to spend weeks just trying to figure out how to do something simple with $45 software that it takes 30 seconds to figure out in $700 software. And that's how this software is making me feel. Is there anything out there that I can read or look at that can actually help make sense of things that isn't going to use up every single bit of free time that I get (which isn't much)?
Comments
Going through the tutorials and the CC3+ manual is a very good idea. Even if they don't directly apply to what you want to do, you wil learn more on how to use the software.
Some of us, including me, have some tutorials on our sites. And Joe Sweeny's tutorials on youtube are good to.
As JimP mention, the manual is the place to start, and I recommend working through it, and do all the tutorials in it, and not just read it. CC3 isn't the kind of program where you can start by figuring out what you want, read the appropriate pages in the manual for that task and do it.
Same with the video tutorials out there, make sure to follow along.
Usually, most of the learning curve hangs on getting a proper understanding of the core concepts, like understanding the basic command workflow, sheets and layers, sheets effect and the use of the drawing tools and symbols. Be sure to understand those concepts before starting on a real map.
As for your precision issue, use snaps, modifiers, or input values on command line. One of the great things about CC3+ is the ease of doing precision work, and there are lots of tools to do so.
I do understand you issues with getting into CC3+ because I had the same ones when I bought CC3 and CD3 a few years back.
However, I have trouble understanding what it is that you are trying to accomplish that causes you issues. Maybe, if you explained what exactly you need help with, we would be able to give more specific advice.
Cheers
Hadrian
The tutorials cover things like this.
Before placing a symbol, right click the mouse. A popup will give you the scale. Change it to what you want, place the symbol by clicking on the map.
To scale it afrter placement, type scalexy on the command line, select the symbol, right click, select Do It fomr the menu. Look at the command line, you will see a request for a scale number. The default is the number in parenthesis. Type in the scale you want, and press th enter key one time.
I have a 21 inch lcd monitor, nothing powerful at my end. And CC3/CC3+ use only 2 gigs of ram, and not the video card. So more ram and a video card don't matter. I just have a video chip on the motherboard.
In any event, moving a symbol is quite easy. I just use the MOVE button on the left-hand side of the screen. You can also re-scale your object with the same button as you move it. Look up the MOVE button and it should all be explained. CC3+ is a mouse-driven program, however, so using arrow keys to move things is not possible (to my knowledge -- every time I try to give advice I find myself corrected, so I've come to rely on the saying "the more you learn the less you know!"). And it really isn't a one-click and done program -- usually, you select the command, select the item you wish to affect with that command, click on it, and then click the DO IT dialogue that pops up. A little more than a simple click and go, but you get used to it quickly. CC3+ does not function like standard graphics programs so can't be compared to them. With a few exceptions, like symbols, you have to move/delete/edit polygons and not areas. Much of it becomes intuitive, however, the more you use it. It is not an impossible task, just one that requires patience and practice. I hope you can overcome your frustration because CC3+ really is a stupendous program. And visit the forums often. Even if you don't participate in discussions, there are many tips and tricks you can pick up here from other users, plus seeing other mappers' work for inspiration.
Every single one of us has had to learn how to use this program, so we all understand the frustrations you're having.
CC3+ is just like any other sophisticated computer program on the market, and there is no 'fast track'. You do have to take a little bit of time to figure out how to use it. Would you expect to be able to use Excel, or Power Point with no instruction?
My best advice to you, is what everyone told me in the beginning... forget everything you are used to, and everything you think you know... even your knowledge about the fast cad may be part of the issue. Take a day or two and really go through the tutorials, and I don't mean just read them, or skim through them... actually work through the tutorials... that will give you most of the instructions that you need.
And if there is something you need to know that you can't find in the tutorials, you can always come here to the forums and ask. We have many members at different levels of experience... chances are someone will have the answer to your questions. This is a great group of people, and we are always willing to help!
CC3+ has a somewhat steep learning curve. In the beginning, you'll find that easy operations seems needlessly complicated, but as you learn the system better, and get familiar with things like the powerful selection system, you'll find that you can accomplish a lot of things in CC3+ much easier than in other software.
Most drawing programs that you've used likely used the "object, action, modifier" user interface concept. For those programs, you would select the objects that you wanted to manipulate, then issue a command to manipulate them, then specify the modifier that says how much to manipulate them. It's the same basic steps, but the sentence reads "These apples move to the bin." One major UI distinction between common drawing packages and CC3+ is the presence of onscreen manipulation handles and the implicit commands associated with them. When you select an object in such programs, manipulating the handles typically allows you to move, scale, rotate, or skew the objects in question. CC3+ doesn't have these direct-manipulation handles, meaning that each command must be explicit.
Note that CC3+ does have a "select first" option, but you still have to select at the end of the selection process, and it becomes more difficult (in my opinion) to keep work flowing. With left-button preselection enabled, the sentence read "These apples move to the bin". Explicit specification of commands is till required, and there still aren't direct manipulation handles.
I grew so frustrated I had to give up on it (my sister, who can't draw at all, found it much easier than I did). Some years later, I acquired CC3+ with a renewed determination on not letting my money go to waste. Suddenly, it had become much easier (I again went through all the videos, tutorials, etc.). I don't think it was the programme itself that changed... I suppose either:
a) my brain just needed some time to adjust itself, or
b) my previous failure made me approach it the second time without expectations on how it should work.
I still struggle with it, but I really don't have much time to devote to CC3 so I expect my learning curve to spread over time... maybe the steepness will become smaller. :P
Anyway, I follow in the footsteps of great users here in the forums and on youtube - which has also helped me a lot.
I'm looking forward to hitting up the tutorials in the Ultimate Tomb of Mapping as well.
Of course, the other option is to hit up DriveThru RPG and find some maps you like! If Cartography is not your cup of tea, you have plenty of options buying wonderful maps from people who love this.
I have been toying with this program for 15+ years. I still come here and have some of the wonderful members here set me on the right course. From how great the program is, the members are even better. But seriously there is no instant gratification with this program. Otherwise everyone would be making amazing maps, being good takes effort, being amazing takes astronomical effort.
I don't think anyone had reached the full capacity of what this program can do. Everyone keeps one upping the last person.
The vector graphics give you so many options.
Learn what the sheets and layers do.
Those are the main thing to learn. Then keyboard shortcuts to manipulate symbols, and editing objects. Once you get those you are on your way.
Patience is required to learn anything well, and don't forget that you have many more years of using PS type software than you think, since you probably used a lot of PS type software at school and home as a kid, whereas CC3 is completely different - not exactly anything that you've ever come across before.
I am unusual in that it really didn't present any problems to me right from the start, but I've never used PS, and had absolutely no preconceived ideas about how things should work.
I found learning how to make GIMP do what I actually wanted it to do, rather than what IT wanted to do, far more difficult than learning CC3/CC3+. CC3 is far more logical than GIMP, and though I am hopeless at maths, I do have a totally logical mind.
Fewer years ago, I upgraded to CC3 and played around with things for a little and intended to return at some point, but never really did.
In both of these cases, it was the steep learning curve.
Recently, our D&D group has decided to move to a virtual table top (d20Pro).
The choice is make my own battle maps, purchase commercially made battle maps, or go with the VTT's map creation.
Campaign Cartographer makes the best maps available, but there is the learning curve.
I'd rather have my own maps that depict what I want them to, rather than adapt my story to what someone else's map shows.
And that means learning to use CC3+.
I understand the basics...
I'm following numerous videos by watching on one monitor and doing on the other.
The Tome (separate purchase) is massively useful too... work along with it, and actually do the examples.
At this stage, my maps aren't mediocre, but they're not what I want either.
I'm improving through doing.
You will too.
You'll get there, Ualaa
The tutorial they have up on this site by Mr. Sweeny is good, but I actually learned a good deal more from this guy here: ---->https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF7ObL1N26fPVnW08-aU4AQ
I'd say run through some Sweeney tutes if you have dungeon designer, and then move on to Crawford for more complex and out of the box stuff.
I feel, like the OP, that the documentation in PDFs and tutorials on YouTube don't explain things well enough, or don't focus on things I would need to know, resulting in me never really finishing a map because it never becomes what I had in mind (no wait, yes - I have one 33000x33000 map of the home province of my RP campaign; it's not good but it serves).
I find it very frustrating not to be able to build what I envision, and hence here I am.
Is there any tutorial or possibility to make a map that is not quite overland and not quite city? I want to show a citadel which is featuring in our campaign; its gatehouse, its outer walls, the towers, the fields, the town outside, but I want to be able to shape it to "look like" it does in our game.
I have in addition to CC3/CC3+: Annuals #1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10; City Designer 3; Dungeon Designer 3; Fractal Terrains 3; Perspectives 3; Source Maps: Castles!, Symbol Set 2 v3: Floorplans, and Symbol Set 4: Dungeons of Schley.
I would also like to learn to map a city to make it look like it occupies hills of varying heights.
Can anyone guide me to good sources for me to learn from?
Another question to anyone who owns Annual #2, regarding the heraldry - is it easy to use and can I create any kind of device I want or am I limited by designs supplied?
Finally a tip (!) because I saw people asking about Source Maps! Castles. I can confirm that I can use symbols from CC3/Source Maps: Castles! in CC3+, I added the castle walls from the source maps to a city map I was working on in CC3+.
lemme find the tutorial in question....
He also makes a map roughly around the dimensions you're talking (like campaign-level, but for a region rather than a continent or country) here:
sadly he kinda speeds through it, but its the same general principles he does in he earlier one, just without the resizing.
Edit: Nevermind, it was the fill style that was solid black.. how often do I need that ^^
Lots of this is scaling symbols and overlapping. It helps if you know what your layout is, otherwise it may not be realistic and it may turn out a shambles.
I make extensive use of the command line with it.
Try this:
Make a 100ftx100ft pers map
make su re grid's on, at least as specific as 10ft (right click grid in bottum right, set settings there) and tick snap, ortho
take mouse pointer up to midpoint left to right, about er... 20 feet down from top
click, then, stop clicking.
Itll ask how long this wall is in the command prompt. enter 50
then itll ask for next corner. enter 50 again
then, itll ask for wall height. enter something between 6 and 10
hit enter. now you have a 50x50x10 room, with cutaway to show interior
from here, start making walls, take snap off, but keep ortho on (ortho keeps your walls along a straight plane)
start drawing single walls. click, enter length, right click, enter "1" or "2" for height (so you can see inside)
After you've got a few rooms, (leave empty spaces for doorways), start filling it up with objects. most objects spin 25degrees by hitting the tab key
Pretty soon you'll have something like this:
freehand? forget it. i'd never make it look realistic.
Now, i ended up ditching that for an overhead, since it just looked better overall, but it really got me thinking about the structure before making a dungeon out of it
(overhead version here: )
keep in mind, im by no means "good" at this, im just adequate :P City designer scares the beejesus out of me.
Just play some, and it'll come.
Edit: Nevermind, it was the fill style that was solid black.. how often do I need that ^^
Edit 2: Mm. I changed the fill but now when I paint terrain and refresh, the fill comes up on top regardless.
I often start out trying my hand again in CC3(+) and then I end up with Photoshop building montages out of googled castle images lol. With a few filters it becomes at least something.
I expected Castles to have a wide array of options to truly "build" a castle/fortress/donjon/keep/tower/whathaveyou, but maybe I should be working in SketchUp or something instead.
Before I come off as too negative, I enjoy CC3+ a great deal, it's almost therapy (until I get frustrated..lol, then it's not quite therapy.
I am aware that I get back what I put in, but I feel a bit lost regardless :)
BTW, how do you "transpose" an isometric 3D map to flat 2D?
Also, is it possible to load *all* installed symbols, leading to lots of scrolling but still less of a hassle than open that button, navigate windows menus, back and forth ?
Coulden't tell you what's up with Per3 for you man. I'd have to troubleshoot it, and I'd have to see what's happening exactly.
I don't know much about the source map stuff. Those floorplan details are a little beyond me at my skill level. :P