I have been trying to make some cool city maps, but mine never look as good as other peoples and the streets don't flow like others. Can someone give me some advice
Post an example so you can get critique. Don't worry if your map doesn't look good, mine didn't either when I started and only recently I feel my maps are of good enough quality.
If you want a suggestion, I'd recommend the Cartographer's Annual. Some months have had brilliant city maps with instructive PDFs that really jump-started my map-making. They show by example, which helps a lot. As do Joe S.'s tutorials, but those are primarily for overland work and dungeons. I made this map using stuff from the annual after only having CD3 for a couple of weeks. I need to re-do it (as I made some big mistakes creating it), but I still think it looks pretty good.
Well, allow me to offer up my philosophy on roads. Whether or not it's useful is a matter of opinion.
First and foremost, roads do not exist heedless of the world around them. They exist to connect two or more locations together. This is particularly true of 'organic' roads- those roads that are laid down by people traveling the same path until it is worn down into the dirt. The idea here is that you want to move from one location to another, regularly. The more you do it, the more established the path becomes, and the more people who travel it, the wider and more regular it becomes.
For instance, let's say you have a river, and a forest. The forest is being cut down for lumber. The river is being used to transport the logs. Therefore you are likely to walk back and forth between the forest and the river, taking the same route over and over again. That establishes a road. Now let's assume that you have many people doing this. They'll need homes. The best place for them to set up their homes will be along the road, somewhere between the river and the forest. If there's more people than space, you may add homes behind the ones facing the road- this will create a new road going from these homes to the original road. With all of these people here, someone sets up a tavern. There's no room with the houses in the way, so they set up the tavern by the river, a little bit further down from the dock used to send the logs downstream. This tavern is a new location, and a road connects it back to the homes and to the original road- people traveling to and from it during the course of the day and evening. Then more buildings spring up, and as they require space new roads are created. If you have a road frequented by wagons, it'll be wide enough to accommodate them. If you've got enough traffic that wagons are going to be coming and going at the same time frequently, it'll be wide enough for two wagons to pass, or a second road will be created that is, or there'll be a spot for wagons to pull out of the way until one's passed for the other.
The only time this does not occur is when someone plans well ahead, such as with city planning. Now your goal is to create a city all at once, not wait for it to spring up organically. So what you do is you arrange the roads in a pattern that allows for quick access to the whole of the city. Perhaps you know how much traffic you expect, or want to encourage along a certain route- so you'll plan the roads to match. Here you're more likely to get geometric patterns and sharp angles, rather than curves and gentle arcs. You may also have specific areas set aside for specific functions- a trade quarter is likely to require more room for wagons and the like, whereas residential areas are more likely to have foot traffic.
So with those ideas in mind, it becomes much easier to lay out a city- first find the major resources, such as a harbor, a forest, or arable land, and work upwards from there organically, or assume that the entire thing is planned out ahead by some engineer or architect or politician, and use sharp angles, geometric patterns, and areas laid out by like type, rather than convenience.
Wow, thank you for the response, it made alot of sense to me. I always have trouble with thinking of how to build roads and stuff, but to think of it in this way, like to think of it as a real place and just use common sense on how things would flow, and what people would want. That really helps, you are an amazing thinker, the fact that you can have a thought process like this is amazing. I dont know how i would be able to do something like this without help. So what you did really helped me. Again thank you very much i will post a new map from what you taught me and if its not to much trouble, to critique it and tell me what i have improved on and what i need to improve on, that would help alot. Once again thank you
Ok i made this map while i was waiting for a response, tell me if you like it. Im still gonna take your advice now and start a map based off of what you told me. So yeah, thanks :P any critiquing on this map would help alot as well.
Something is wrong with the scale... and the roads are inefficient, unless they are circling unseen hills. I'm very new to the program myself and have yet to make a single map that coherent... LOL... but I offer my opinion anyway, hoping you will do the same when I begin asking questions.
- The roads look unnatural, espcially the dirt ones to the south. They are too curvy and the system itself isn't really efficient. Roads tend to follow straight lines, unless there are obstacles. You used a smooth road, try the straight road tool. - I think you are missing effects. I see no shadows or blurs or whatever and CD3 has some standard effects that will be applied to roads, walls, houses, etc. as soon as you turn on the effects. - What are the large blue roofs supposed to represent? - You are using isometric trees with top-down represented roofs. You should use a symbol for trees that's also top-down I think. - You are using too many styles of houses, it looks a bit messy.
Anyway, I might do a small tutorial sooner or later, as I can see you are facing the same difficulties as me when I first started using this software. I just need to find the time :-)
Thank you very much for the feedback. Jhaelin and Gandwarf. It means alot to me that you would take your time to do help me. I understand about the road system, i was trying to make it artistic but then it didn't flow rationally, I was trying for a castle kinda effect but like a higher end rich castle, how can i turn the random street down to use just a few house types? And Gandwarf, if you could do a tutorial it would be perfect, i have seen your maps, and they are phenomenal. I will try to make another map that uses more rationality. i should be able to post it tonight (for me anyways) it is 8:00 AM here . anyways thanks agian. If you have any good ideas or any cool ways you use sheets and effects if you could post it. That would help alot. Once again thank you so much for your time and feedback
Your first map seems to be on the right track. You have a central, important building that the city seems to have sprung from. I (and this is just my opinion) thing the pretzel look is unique and interesting.
Most cities are developed because of need, whether it be for protection, or access to a common resource etc. Because of this, cities tend to spread outward from the inside so the largest clusters of buildings tend to be toward the center or, for larger cities, one of the centers. Also remember that cities need large numbers of resources (food, water, etc.) and that means farms and rivers, lakes or wells. In some societies cities need protection but this is not a necessity (modern cities have little need for large city walls). I've found it useful to jot down some quick notes regarding the cities social structure and basic function (why did it develop, what keeps the people there, what kind of economy does it have...) This helps me shape the basic structure. From there it's a matter of esthetics, and some basic logic regarding locations of things.
Gandwarf and Jhaelin are correct on this- there's two factors to organic city development that are important to keep in mind of how things end up where they are: first, people need things, and second, people prefer convenience. The first means that people will try to live near where they can get things they need, particularly ones they need often. Water, food, and other items are going to be useful as a general matter of course, but this also extends to businesses: you need customers, but you may also need raw materials. Lumber mills are going to be situated near places where they can get access to logs. Carpenters and furniture makers are going to be near where they can get lumber. And so on. If there's multiple needs one might override the others: boatyards have the overriding need to be near water, so the location of available lumber has to take a back seat.
This means also that roads tend to be the shortest route, the fastest, route, or both. Further, homes are going to be close together- if you can't build your house on the road to and from the lumber mill, you'll build it as close as you can- probably facing away from it so you can get up closer to the back of your neighbor's house (and thus the main road) while having plenty of room to come and go from your front porch. You'll go the minimal distance that's acceptable between houses, or the minimal distance for roads- unless you're able to travel longer distances conveniently (suburbs are a phenomenon of the development of the car), or you're one of those few people who'd rather be isolated, but not too isolated (i.e., the old man who lives by himself out on the edge of town).
That also dictates what your house is made out of. Wooden homes are commonplace where wood is easy to get. Similarly, stone, clay, and even sod homes spring up where those are convenient materials. There are exceptions, but these tend to be like the person who buys a Hummer when gas prices are through the roof- they have far more money than average. So they can afford to have materials shipped from further away, either because they want them or because they think they need them (regardless of whether this is true).
But there's another factor that's more history related: familiarity. People will build things that they like. That can often be things that are familiar. Maybe you like the appearance of familiar things. Maybe you like familiar building styles because the builders are more likely to know what the heck they're doing. Regardless, people who migrate to new areas and set up homes or businesses are going to bring their styles of buildings with them. You can see this in architecture around the world. To that end, if you're creating a city that has been the home of a lot of migrants (occupied by foreigners, the refuge of people driven out of their homeland, and so forth), you'll see unusual styles of homes even if they're using the same materials as everyone else. And this can also influence local builders who get inspiration for new designs, or integrate new styles into existing ones. So you might have portions of a city that have a markedly different style, but there should be a reason for this. And if you get too many different styles going on, it's just going to look cluttered, or badly thought out.
You all bring up great ideas. Thanks for the time and effort you spent to help me get the right thought process for map designing. I will be working on a map tomorrow and will be trying to follow your instructions as best as possible. I love how your guys mind thinks, it is amazing! Well seeing how it is midnight here i am going to get some rest i will try to post my new map tomorrow around 2ish my time so in 14 hours. Lol ok thanks, oh and Gandwarf thanks for the link, im gonna check it out right now :P thanks again everyone!
Gandwarf! that tutorial was amazing, it really helped in the thought process of a village. im going to post the village i made from it. I know it looks alot like your map, but im just glad i could do it :P im going to try to attemp a logging village now thanks!
Nice job Maddog. It looks a lot like the tutorial village and that's a good thing. I am interested to see what you can come up with in the future. Can you post this example in the thread I have posted the tutorials in or is it ok for me to do so? I think it would motivate other people to try them out.
ok what i did was i posted it as a JPEG file under a reply so its at the end of the post but its there you can do what you want with it if you had another idea for it. Thanks for all the help!
Ok Gandwarf i think your a GOD lol i just made this in like 20 minutes. Please tell me how i did, anything i should improve and stuff. second one has custom sheets
Well, I certainly don't think I am a god, but if you think so, you should start worshipping me and bring me offerings ;-)
Joking aside, I think you have done really well and I see you are trying to find your own style, which is especially good. Some feedback:
- I like the general layout of your map, with the houses near the forest edge. - You made two granaries or storage sheds? The inhabitants probably would have wanted them to be closer to the water, so they could try to quickly put out any fires. But maybe there is a good reason for the buildings to be where they are. You are the creator, so you make up the rules! - Your updated version of the map doesn't have effects on. Don't forget to turn on effects when sharing as that will make your maps look SO much better. You can edit your post, remove this version and update it with a new version by the way. - Make a road out of town. - The glow effect on your lake needs some work. To me it looks like the whole lake is giving out some weird glow. You might try to add a blur to soften the glow and shores. - Maybe add some dirt patches to the forest. - I don't think CD3 comes with tree stump symbols, but they would look great in this map. The CSUAC contains thousands of free symbols and tree stumps are definitely in there. Do a search for CSUAC on this forum. - I am not really a fan of the dirt texture you used for the roads. But this is something personal.
Anyway, you are really on the right track and I can see you are starting to make CD3 work for you. You just need to keep practising to improve your skills further. Great to see you cranking out a map like this in 20 mins. City Designer 3 is really powerful software, I think I am even converting some Photoshop users to using this software also :-)
Thank you so much for the feedback. Yeah the two larger buildings one is a granery and one is a storage shed. I really didn't think about their locations just knew i needed them. And yeah as for the lake i forgot to work on that sheet, so that effect was already one there. Also when i download free symbols and stuff how do i install them. where do i put them so they show up in CD3. anyways thanks for the feedback. Are you going to make a large city tutorial? that would be phenomenal i am aware that tutorials take awhile to make and i wouldn't expect it any time soon. But just thought it would be cool. If you could, it would mean alot to me for you to put one of your maps on this post, just so i can see some more of your thought process. I will not copy anything you post, i would just like a look so i can develop a style of my own. Anyways thanks again for all your help so far. :P
Yes, I am going to create a large city tutorial as well. Right now I have to choose if I am going to invest my time in another tutorial or if I am going to do another large city map myself. Both are very fun to do. I already sketched out the city map I want to do.
I don't understand what you mean by putting one of my maps in this thread. Do you need more examples? I dumped all my maps in here:
ok thank you i will give that a shot, and i will also add the road leading out of town. Thank you very much for posting those sites, i will check them out, and nevermind, as long as i can see some of your maps you dont have to post any. Thanks agian for all your help i will look at some big city stuff and attempt to make one. I will post it tonight, some time i got to go to work now for like four hours. so ill ttyl thanks agian.
One thing I'd point out, just from a general standpoint: you've got all houses on the north side of the main road, but there's definitely space between the treeline and the road for houses. It seems likely that there would be at least some individuals who would put their houses on that side, particularly near the intersections.
Comments
First and foremost, roads do not exist heedless of the world around them. They exist to connect two or more locations together. This is particularly true of 'organic' roads- those roads that are laid down by people traveling the same path until it is worn down into the dirt. The idea here is that you want to move from one location to another, regularly. The more you do it, the more established the path becomes, and the more people who travel it, the wider and more regular it becomes.
For instance, let's say you have a river, and a forest. The forest is being cut down for lumber. The river is being used to transport the logs. Therefore you are likely to walk back and forth between the forest and the river, taking the same route over and over again. That establishes a road. Now let's assume that you have many people doing this. They'll need homes. The best place for them to set up their homes will be along the road, somewhere between the river and the forest. If there's more people than space, you may add homes behind the ones facing the road- this will create a new road going from these homes to the original road. With all of these people here, someone sets up a tavern. There's no room with the houses in the way, so they set up the tavern by the river, a little bit further down from the dock used to send the logs downstream. This tavern is a new location, and a road connects it back to the homes and to the original road- people traveling to and from it during the course of the day and evening. Then more buildings spring up, and as they require space new roads are created. If you have a road frequented by wagons, it'll be wide enough to accommodate them. If you've got enough traffic that wagons are going to be coming and going at the same time frequently, it'll be wide enough for two wagons to pass, or a second road will be created that is, or there'll be a spot for wagons to pull out of the way until one's passed for the other.
The only time this does not occur is when someone plans well ahead, such as with city planning. Now your goal is to create a city all at once, not wait for it to spring up organically. So what you do is you arrange the roads in a pattern that allows for quick access to the whole of the city. Perhaps you know how much traffic you expect, or want to encourage along a certain route- so you'll plan the roads to match. Here you're more likely to get geometric patterns and sharp angles, rather than curves and gentle arcs. You may also have specific areas set aside for specific functions- a trade quarter is likely to require more room for wagons and the like, whereas residential areas are more likely to have foot traffic.
So with those ideas in mind, it becomes much easier to lay out a city- first find the major resources, such as a harbor, a forest, or arable land, and work upwards from there organically, or assume that the entire thing is planned out ahead by some engineer or architect or politician, and use sharp angles, geometric patterns, and areas laid out by like type, rather than convenience.
- The roads look unnatural, espcially the dirt ones to the south. They are too curvy and the system itself isn't really efficient. Roads tend to follow straight lines, unless there are obstacles. You used a smooth road, try the straight road tool.
- I think you are missing effects. I see no shadows or blurs or whatever and CD3 has some standard effects that will be applied to roads, walls, houses, etc. as soon as you turn on the effects.
- What are the large blue roofs supposed to represent?
- You are using isometric trees with top-down represented roofs. You should use a symbol for trees that's also top-down I think.
- You are using too many styles of houses, it looks a bit messy.
Anyway, I might do a small tutorial sooner or later, as I can see you are facing the same difficulties as me when I first started using this software. I just need to find the time :-)
http://forum.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=3983
Most cities are developed because of need, whether it be for protection, or access to a common resource etc. Because of this, cities tend to spread outward from the inside so the largest clusters of buildings tend to be toward the center or, for larger cities, one of the centers. Also remember that cities need large numbers of resources (food, water, etc.) and that means farms and rivers, lakes or wells. In some societies cities need protection but this is not a necessity (modern cities have little need for large city walls). I've found it useful to jot down some quick notes regarding the cities social structure and basic function (why did it develop, what keeps the people there, what kind of economy does it have...) This helps me shape the basic structure. From there it's a matter of esthetics, and some basic logic regarding locations of things.
Keep up the good work.
This means also that roads tend to be the shortest route, the fastest, route, or both. Further, homes are going to be close together- if you can't build your house on the road to and from the lumber mill, you'll build it as close as you can- probably facing away from it so you can get up closer to the back of your neighbor's house (and thus the main road) while having plenty of room to come and go from your front porch. You'll go the minimal distance that's acceptable between houses, or the minimal distance for roads- unless you're able to travel longer distances conveniently (suburbs are a phenomenon of the development of the car), or you're one of those few people who'd rather be isolated, but not too isolated (i.e., the old man who lives by himself out on the edge of town).
That also dictates what your house is made out of. Wooden homes are commonplace where wood is easy to get. Similarly, stone, clay, and even sod homes spring up where those are convenient materials. There are exceptions, but these tend to be like the person who buys a Hummer when gas prices are through the roof- they have far more money than average. So they can afford to have materials shipped from further away, either because they want them or because they think they need them (regardless of whether this is true).
But there's another factor that's more history related: familiarity. People will build things that they like. That can often be things that are familiar. Maybe you like the appearance of familiar things. Maybe you like familiar building styles because the builders are more likely to know what the heck they're doing. Regardless, people who migrate to new areas and set up homes or businesses are going to bring their styles of buildings with them. You can see this in architecture around the world. To that end, if you're creating a city that has been the home of a lot of migrants (occupied by foreigners, the refuge of people driven out of their homeland, and so forth), you'll see unusual styles of homes even if they're using the same materials as everyone else. And this can also influence local builders who get inspiration for new designs, or integrate new styles into existing ones. So you might have portions of a city that have a markedly different style, but there should be a reason for this. And if you get too many different styles going on, it's just going to look cluttered, or badly thought out.
Can you post this example in the thread I have posted the tutorials in or is it ok for me to do so? I think it would motivate other people to try them out.
Joking aside, I think you have done really well and I see you are trying to find your own style, which is especially good. Some feedback:
- I like the general layout of your map, with the houses near the forest edge.
- You made two granaries or storage sheds? The inhabitants probably would have wanted them to be closer to the water, so they could try to quickly put out any fires. But maybe there is a good reason for the buildings to be where they are. You are the creator, so you make up the rules!
- Your updated version of the map doesn't have effects on. Don't forget to turn on effects when sharing as that will make your maps look SO much better. You can edit your post, remove this version and update it with a new version by the way.
- Make a road out of town.
- The glow effect on your lake needs some work. To me it looks like the whole lake is giving out some weird glow. You might try to add a blur to soften the glow and shores.
- Maybe add some dirt patches to the forest.
- I don't think CD3 comes with tree stump symbols, but they would look great in this map. The CSUAC contains thousands of free symbols and tree stumps are definitely in there. Do a search for CSUAC on this forum.
- I am not really a fan of the dirt texture you used for the roads. But this is something personal.
Anyway, you are really on the right track and I can see you are starting to make CD3 work for you. You just need to keep practising to improve your skills further. Great to see you cranking out a map like this in 20 mins. City Designer 3 is really powerful software, I think I am even converting some Photoshop users to using this software also :-)
http://forum.profantasy.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=332&page=1#Item_0
Yes, I am going to create a large city tutorial as well. Right now I have to choose if I am going to invest my time in another tutorial or if I am going to do another large city map myself. Both are very fun to do. I already sketched out the city map I want to do.
I don't understand what you mean by putting one of my maps in this thread. Do you need more examples? I dumped all my maps in here:
http://forum.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=2991
There's dozens of them... and you can see my style evolve.
Stumbled on a great site to get some inspiration for larger cities, by the way:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/historic_cities.html
It contains hundreds of maps like these:
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/germany/cologne/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_38_b.jpg
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/british_isles/bristol/maps/braun_hogenberg_III_2_b.jpg
Otherwise, quite good.