One of FT's main selling points (for me at least) is its ability to show the same world in many different map projections. FT assumes that you're starting with something in an equirectangular projection (that's how it defines its internals - I blame lazy programmers) and then it converts that into the displayed projection. Getting something that you already have into that projection can be more difficult. To ease that process, I wrote the ReprojectImage (http://www.fracterra.com/ReprojectImage.zip ) program way back when. It will take an input image and reproject it into the projection that FT requires. Ralf used it way back when on his Jhendor project ( http://www.jhendor.de/tutorials/cc2-ft.pdf ) to convert his CC2 maps to FT.
Properly, a projection is a transformation from one space to another: for traditional maps, it's the translation from a sphere to a plane or from a plane to a sphere (spheroid for the pedantic). If the world is already planar, then the projection is pretty much trivial (scaling is area, distance, and angle preserving for plane<->plane) and most folks probably wouldn't describe that sort of transformation as a "map projection", even though it would be technically accurate. For sphere<->plane, though, a projection has varying amounts in each of area, distance, and angle distortion. A Mercator projection, for example, preserves angles at the expense of area and distance. An equirectangular projection doesn't preserve much of anything but has the nice property that latitude and longitude on the sphere relate directly to vertical and horizontal on the plane by simple scaling; it doesn't preserve angle, distance, or area, however.
Posted By: Shessar How important is the visual look of the map? Once we have the world map built, will we still be using the FT3 map for anything? Does it or will it matter that my continent is visually different from that in our FT3 image? Are we going for distance over looks?
You're just full of questions, aren't you young lady?
To try to answer some of this. We are not planning on using the FT map for much, but I will use it for some visuals, like the spinning globe. I was also planning on including it in the atlas download, so users can export their own coastlines for areas if desired. It might also be helpful to export coastlines for some of the higher detailed maps. We'll also need a world map at some point. This will probably (But doesn't have to) be exported from the FT map, and then major features from he continent maps will be added. We should remember that this is a fantasy map project, and not a business-critical navigational tool, so I think we can allow ourselves some leeway. Personally, I think distance is most important (Shapes are distorted on that flat FT map anyway, so trying to match it just conserves the distortion), but within reasonable limits. We should try to get rid of the major errors (Like when I exported JimP's islands, their sizes was off by a factor of 2), not trying to be perfectionists (Because we are facing a problem that don't have a perfect solution). Go with your gut feeling on this one. The other continents that will really face this issue are E and F, but they are smaller and a bit easier to handle. D is larger, but closer to the equator, so less distortion in this projection.
One thing that you can do with FT after your maps is done is to patch them back into FT as image overlays and get the whole world with all of the different maps. You'd need to use ReprojectImage ( http://www.fracterra.com/ReprojectImage.zip ) or similar tools such as GDAL that can reproject your input file back into FT's desired equirectangular image.
Well, that could be an interesting exercise. With all our different approaches, I am not sure if the end result would really be viable, but interesting still.
Posted By: MonsenYou're just full of questions, aren't you young lady?
Haha! You have no idea of the torment my brain has been putting me through over this, as it tries to puzzle out the best path forward. But between your kind reassurances (thank you) and Joe's wonderful information packed links (double thank you), I think I'm finally at the point of just accepting that perfection is not possible. As I move forward, I will continue to have to tell my brain to shut up as it tries to keep me awake at night, puzzling out the pros and cons of distance vs area distortion.
Distance is primary. My brain is quiet at the moment. Thanks for your overwhelming patience. Time for some mapping fun. :-D
Well, those export types use a simplified variant of the 6-way interrupted sinusodial projection. This projection preserves shapes very well, but the price you pay is those triangualar "holes". I find it very difficult to read a map where two points that are right next to each other in the world suddenly gets separated by this huge gap.
I agree. I'm trying to recreate a CC3 map of the old Barsoom maps for my http://travellergame.drivein-jim.net/pastfuturemars/ site. They come in 3 circles added together with some overlap. I've been trying to put them all in together using a Traveller template. Its not exactly working.
I really like the C continent (this is the one that made me vote for that map!), but I really don't have much time to map now. So I don't want to prevent anybody from taking it, but I may have a go at it, who knows...
Just a question: Have we discussed the general technological/magical level of this world? It can have many impacts on settlements density and size, how straight the roads are, how connected the transportation network is, the amount of remaining primeval forest, and many other small details...
Posted By: GatharSo I don't want to prevent anybody from taking it, but I may have a go at it, who knows...
Just give a word when you feel ready to take it on, and I'll give it to you if it is still available.
Posted By: GatharHave we discussed the general technological/magical level of this world?
No. My general thoughts is that this is a typical fantasy medieval world. It is however quite a big place, and there are place for much variation within the technological and magical progress (Excluding high enough levels in any of the areas that would basically have easily "taken over" the world). I left things like this out on purpose myself, because I want to give mappers as much freedom as possible. I can easily picture a world where one continent have evolved to 14th century technology, but where magic hasn't been "discovered" at all, and a another continent dominated by primitive tribes lead by shamans with a high level of magic, and any other combination between these two. All of this leads to interesting meeting points between cultures.
I've now set up a browsable atlas on the web where all the maps can be viewed. Obviously, since no maps are done yet, I just grabbed all the current in-progress one just to have some sample maps to work with.
Note that the main work I have put into this is the backend for the system, it is neither skinned, nor spell-checked, nor are any of the texts finalized. But, the technical stuff now seems to work fine, making it easy for me to add new maps as they are made.
I am also planning on hosting the download of the actual atlas from here as well, at least for now, but I haven't prepared any download of that yet, since I don't have any finished maps to put in it.
I improved it a bit, I found out how to highlight imagemap areas by default, so people don't have to guess where the active zones in the map are (and I don't have to manually edit the images to show them)
Posted By: QuentenYou have made my idea come true.
Only as far as you and the others continue to supply the project with those awesome maps. I lover all I have seen so far. My own contributions are relatively minor so far.
Ok, after finally passing my Commercial Drivers license examination I think I may have a bit of time to devote to this project. I'm not exactly sure how much yet, but I will try to do what I can.
That site looks great Monsen!
So since this has been going for a bit and no one has stepped up to do continent D, I will be brave and volunteer for it.
Monsen, can I ask you to make it the proper size for me please in an FCW? After memorizing a 328 page book for my test, I'm not sure my head could stand trying to figure out the math for the distortions on that size of a continent. Would it be too much trouble to ask you to also make the land into the Mike Schley style as well? Or if not, at least tell me how it's done? My brain is still a bit on overload from that test. I'll whisper you my Email address.
And I just want to say thank you to everyone for taking the time out of your busy days to do this.
When people are done with their map and send me their .fcw, could you also send me the following info:
Your Name/nickname: As you would like it to appear publicly in the map infobox. Could be your real name, your forum name, another nickname, etc. Contact details: Only if you wish to allow people to contact you about the map, for example usage requests. This will be embedded in the map, and therefore public, so only include it if you really want this. You can also put the URL of your website here. Map Description: If you have one. Will be put into a map note Styles Used: Which style(s) did you use for this map. Products Required: Which products/symbol sets are required to view this map? We all know CC3+ itself should be enough for the continent maps, but this will change further down. Also, remember that vector symbols are embedded in the map, so you don't need to own the product such symbols came from if they are used.
I plan to put some of this info into an infobox outside the map border, and some of it in the map notes. I'd like this to be consistent across maps.
But it is all you guys who deserve thanks, I couldn't have pulled off anything like this by myself, the maps are the most important thing here, I am just providing a bit of coordination and infrastructure. Compared to making a good map, that is the quick and easy part. This is really a community effort.
I just have a few icons to do for K. I would like to go ahead and ask to be assigned to H. That way, I can roll right into that one when I am done. In addition, I can go ahead and name it and use it on the K map.
JimP finished his Archipelago today, so the atlas now has its first map.
While I would really like to get all the continents done, this also opens up the opportunity for people to map smaller areas, and even cities or dungeons. As we discussed earlier, further maps can be in any style, not limited to core CC3+. I'll make a new "main post" about the atlas (and sticky it) in a while when we have some more continent maps ready (you don't have to hurry to get them done though, take the time you need), with some more details about the process. But in the meantime, if anyone wants to go ahead on a detail map from JimP's continent, give me a word.
I've also put up the first version of the atlas for download. Not that much in there for now except a temporary world map and JimP's map, but you can see how I've set up the map infobox and map links.
Comments
Properly, a projection is a transformation from one space to another: for traditional maps, it's the translation from a sphere to a plane or from a plane to a sphere (spheroid for the pedantic). If the world is already planar, then the projection is pretty much trivial (scaling is area, distance, and angle preserving for plane<->plane) and most folks probably wouldn't describe that sort of transformation as a "map projection", even though it would be technically accurate. For sphere<->plane, though, a projection has varying amounts in each of area, distance, and angle distortion. A Mercator projection, for example, preserves angles at the expense of area and distance. An equirectangular projection doesn't preserve much of anything but has the nice property that latitude and longitude on the sphere relate directly to vertical and horizontal on the plane by simple scaling; it doesn't preserve angle, distance, or area, however.
To try to answer some of this. We are not planning on using the FT map for much, but I will use it for some visuals, like the spinning globe. I was also planning on including it in the atlas download, so users can export their own coastlines for areas if desired. It might also be helpful to export coastlines for some of the higher detailed maps.
We'll also need a world map at some point. This will probably (But doesn't have to) be exported from the FT map, and then major features from he continent maps will be added.
We should remember that this is a fantasy map project, and not a business-critical navigational tool, so I think we can allow ourselves some leeway. Personally, I think distance is most important (Shapes are distorted on that flat FT map anyway, so trying to match it just conserves the distortion), but within reasonable limits. We should try to get rid of the major errors (Like when I exported JimP's islands, their sizes was off by a factor of 2), not trying to be perfectionists (Because we are facing a problem that don't have a perfect solution). Go with your gut feeling on this one. The other continents that will really face this issue are E and F, but they are smaller and a bit easier to handle. D is larger, but closer to the equator, so less distortion in this projection.
Distance is primary. My brain is quiet at the moment. Thanks for your overwhelming patience. Time for some mapping fun. :-D
Visually to me anyway.
I really like the C continent (this is the one that made me vote for that map!), but I really don't have much time to map now. So I don't want to prevent anybody from taking it, but I may have a go at it, who knows...
Just a question: Have we discussed the general technological/magical level of this world? It can have many impacts on settlements density and size, how straight the roads are, how connected the transportation network is, the amount of remaining primeval forest, and many other small details...
No. My general thoughts is that this is a typical fantasy medieval world. It is however quite a big place, and there are place for much variation within the technological and magical progress (Excluding high enough levels in any of the areas that would basically have easily "taken over" the world). I left things like this out on purpose myself, because I want to give mappers as much freedom as possible. I can easily picture a world where one continent have evolved to 14th century technology, but where magic hasn't been "discovered" at all, and a another continent dominated by primitive tribes lead by shamans with a high level of magic, and any other combination between these two. All of this leads to interesting meeting points between cultures.
Note that the main work I have put into this is the backend for the system, it is neither skinned, nor spell-checked, nor are any of the texts finalized. But, the technical stuff now seems to work fine, making it easy for me to add new maps as they are made.
You can find the site here.
I am also planning on hosting the download of the actual atlas from here as well, at least for now, but I haven't prepared any download of that yet, since I don't have any finished maps to put in it.
That site looks great Monsen!
So since this has been going for a bit and no one has stepped up to do continent D, I will be brave and volunteer for it.
Monsen, can I ask you to make it the proper size for me please in an FCW? After memorizing a 328 page book for my test, I'm not sure my head could stand trying to figure out the math for the distortions on that size of a continent. Would it be too much trouble to ask you to also make the land into the Mike Schley style as well? Or if not, at least tell me how it's done? My brain is still a bit on overload from that test. I'll whisper you my Email address.
And I just want to say thank you to everyone for taking the time out of your busy days to do this.
Your Name/nickname: As you would like it to appear publicly in the map infobox. Could be your real name, your forum name, another nickname, etc.
Contact details: Only if you wish to allow people to contact you about the map, for example usage requests. This will be embedded in the map, and therefore public, so only include it if you really want this. You can also put the URL of your website here.
Map Description: If you have one. Will be put into a map note
Styles Used: Which style(s) did you use for this map.
Products Required: Which products/symbol sets are required to view this map? We all know CC3+ itself should be enough for the continent maps, but this will change further down. Also, remember that vector symbols are embedded in the map, so you don't need to own the product such symbols came from if they are used.
I plan to put some of this info into an infobox outside the map border, and some of it in the map notes. I'd like this to be consistent across maps.
But it is all you guys who deserve thanks, I couldn't have pulled off anything like this by myself, the maps are the most important thing here, I am just providing a bit of coordination and infrastructure. Compared to making a good map, that is the quick and easy part. This is really a community effort.
I just have a few icons to do for K.
I would like to go ahead and ask to be assigned to H.
That way, I can roll right into that one when I am done.
In addition, I can go ahead and name it and use it on the K map.
Thanks :-)
Welcome to the world building too.
While I would really like to get all the continents done, this also opens up the opportunity for people to map smaller areas, and even cities or dungeons. As we discussed earlier, further maps can be in any style, not limited to core CC3+. I'll make a new "main post" about the atlas (and sticky it) in a while when we have some more continent maps ready (you don't have to hurry to get them done though, take the time you need), with some more details about the process. But in the meantime, if anyone wants to go ahead on a detail map from JimP's continent, give me a word.
I've also put up the first version of the atlas for download. Not that much in there for now except a temporary world map and JimP's map, but you can see how I've set up the map infobox and map links.