a bit of help/advice please

I am trying to create some outdoor battle maps.

what I want to do is use cc3+ to create a background something along the lines of what this page shows:

http://www.bloodofthemage.com/tutorials/battle-map-tutorial-03-non-repeating-ground-textures/

I am unfamiliar with a lot of the terminology so I am not sure which tool or menu item would help me do something along similar lines to the process in that link?

thanks in advance

Comments

  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Hello RoyalWolf - Welcome to the Profantasy Forum :)

    My system keeps overheating, so I only have a very short time to suggest a couple of ideas before I go again.

    The technique described by the page you referenced can be emulated by using related fills, like soil, sand, rock and grass (all of which are available to you in the DD3 textures) on a series of sheets (that's what we call our equivalent to PS layers) overlayed on each other with a couple of simple Sheet effects on each one - like 'edge fade inner', and 'blend mode', or 'transparency'. Using polygons to only cover some but not all of each sheet will also help.

    DD3 also has variable transparency fills. These are the ones that look like dirt/grass/stone, but with snow on them. These white areas are not snow, but transparent areas.

    If you have not done so already, I would strongly recommend working your way through the simple tutorial in the CC3 user manual to get used to what everything does, before launching yourself into this task.

    I hope that helps - and sorry to be so brief!

    Hopefully one of the others will be able to fill in the details or suggest better/alternative ideas than mine :)
  • I am hosting several files, zipped, on my site which are bitmap fills over various types.

    This links to my old page, but on it are links to the bitmap fills and two example maps made with them.
  • edited November 2016
    thanks for the responses. what I am trying to do is get the bitmap fills to be non-repeatable. sheets (for example grass bitmap over the top of dirt bitmap) just seems to make the blends a different look but still repeating

    something along the lines of this
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Blending textures takes patience and practice, whether you are using PS, GIMP, or CC3 - and regardless of the specifics of the actual techniques involved. It is possible to get an effect similar to the one you have illustrated above relatively quickly, as long as you understand a reasonable amount about Sheet effects. The main ones I always use when I'm doing this sort of thing are as I mentioned above: Edge Fade Inner (which controls the transparency grading between different values at the edge and the centre of a polygon filled with texture), Blend Mode (which controls the way the sheets interact - multiply, burn, overlay, dodge etc), and straightforward Transparency (does what it says on the can, basically, but isn't necessary if you already have an Edge Fade Inner effect on the sheet)

    Would it be possible for you to upload a in image of the map you are practicing on - to give us a better idea of what kind of suggestions to make? We could probably be more help if we could see exactly where things are/are not happening for you :)
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Can I ask - are you trying to create an actual texture here, rather than a straightforward map? I get that impression from looking at the edges of your example which might seem to be a tileable image you have there.

    That would be a lot more difficult, unless you used a piece of software designed to create tileable textures, like Genetica, for instance.
  • well I am trying to create an outdoor battle map. not an overland map (I have a fair competency in creating one of those so far)

    I have made a couple outdoor maps that look somewhat reasonable, other than the ground texture has that repetitiveness to it
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    I can see the problem more clearly in this second map. It looks like you are using entire sheets covered with one big rectangle of the same texture, each texture on one sheet only.

    Have you tried setting up 3 sheets with different effects on them and drawing irregular polygons of the same texture on all three of them, for example to vary the colour of the grass between the sheets?

    This is an overland example, but I have far more of these than I do of dungeon maps just yet.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    edited November 2016
    The grass is all one texture, but on 3 different sheets with different Hue Saturation settings (the HSL Sheet Effect). These are blended into one another by using an Edge fade Inner Sheet effect.

    A similar thing has been done with the trees.

    (Please ignore the rivers - they are in draft form!)

    There are still some repeats, but that is because this map is unfinished. To remedy them I will probably add another sheet and vary the texture again.
  • well here is an attempt at 3 different sheets with grass textures, using different Hue settings and inner fades (not knowing really what any of the numbers mean when I enter them, just tried some random differences)

    parts of it look ok, but some of the polygons look forced and obvious
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    edited November 2016
    OK. I think I may have mislead you about the usefulness of the variable transparency sheets, given that they behave quite differently to some of the sheet effects than solid fills do. If you are willing to try something with me here, please can you save your file under a new name, something like "Experiment1", and in that new Experiment1 file change the properties of all those polygons so that they are using solid grass fills instead of the variable transparency fills?

    In the new Experiment1 file, add an "Edge Fade, Inner" sheet effect (EFI) on each of the grass sheets (all except the background), to fade the edges of your polygons, setting it up a bit like this:

    [Image_6923]

    What you can see here in my screen shot is the Edge Fade Inner Effect being used to soften the edge of the LONG GRASS with the BACKGROUND short grass. (Both these fills are from the Bogie's Mapping Objects Collection, but you can do exactly the same thing with the fills available to you in DD3 if you haven't yet downloaded Bogie's Collection)

    You will see that I have used an EFI effect on all the grass sheets (there are three short grass sheets getting paler going up the slope), to blend the edges over the white stones (ringed yellow)

    This map I am using as an example has only just begun, and since its primary purpose is to field test a set of tree symbols I've made I'm not too concerned about repeating patterns in the grass right now. If this was going to be a showable map one day, I would patch over any remaining repeats in the back ground grass (the darkest short grass) with little polygons of the longer grass - polygons that would probably be no bigger than the trees in extent. I would also use the smooth polygon tool to draw them, so that there were no straight lines to catch the eye. You can change the straight polygons to smooth ones on your own Experiment1 map by right clicking the Fractalise button on the left (near the change properties button) and selecting "Straight to smooth".

    If I'm not making an awful lot of sense to you right now, please don't be afraid to ask questions.
  • ok gonna try this step by step so let me know where I am going wrong (appreciate your patience with me)
  • edited November 2016
    2nd sheet added, with effects turned on
  • 3rd sheet added. not great but getting closer
  • edited November 2016
    am I on the right track anyways?

    still - seems like a lot of work to have to randomize the bitmaps. I would have thought a computer program would have a way to do this for me :(

    also its a small map, only 100x100, with only grass on it, haven't even put objects in it, and its already over 1mb file size.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Would it be possible for you to upload the FCW file so that I can see what effects you have applied to all those sheets of grass :)
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Ok - give me about half an hour and I'll send it back to you with a few modifications ;)
  • edited November 2016
    tyvm

    I've looked at several video tutorials but never seen one that really gets into the details. this is why I am struggling so much on this

    appreciate the help
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    edited November 2016
    I've added one more grass sheet, changed the background to grass itself, but the biggest change is in the scale of the bitmap fill.

    If this isn't right for you then nothing lost, but I hope it helps :)
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    edited November 2016
    It can sometimes be quicker to just draw the outline of a really wiggly polygon with the freehand tool, and then convert the line to a polygon by right clicking the fractalize button and choosing 'path to poly' and 'doing it' to your freehand line. That's how I drew the outlines of the grass patches I added to the new Sheet.

    EDIT: I also don't know why the file was so big for you. Its just over 300 kb on my system, which is practically nothing. I have a city map that's approaching 2.5 MB, which I have been reliably informed by a member of the Profantasy Team is about medium sized for an FCW file :)
  • looks great. thanks very much

    i'll delve into the settings you created so I can understand whats going on
  • oh - also sorry for the confusion - it was the jpg that was over 1mb, not the fcw file itself
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    edited November 2016
    You're welcome :)

    I think the only things I changed about the settings were to set the 'outer transparency' on each of the edge fade inner sheet effects to 0, so that the grass faded to nothing. The rest was fine. I think I also removed quite a lot of extra nodes to make the patches you had drawn more curvy. Straight lines don't really help when you are trying to mimic something organic like grass.

    Basically it was already there. You were just being hampered by the scale of the fill, which was really tiny and very scrunched up. I wouldn't have been able to do very much at all if I had stuck to the original scale.
  • ok - so if I wanted to get a bit of rock or dirt showing occasionally - put those on a separate sheet?

    what sort of effects would I use to make those blend in - so that it doesn't look like its just dirt laying on top of grass, but rather a dirt patch within grass, or a rock embedded within the soil that is sticking out of grass
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    There are always several different ways of adding things like that. Are you going to use rocky fills or symbols?

    If you are using symbols just add them to a sheet above the grass.

    If you are going to use a texture you can either change the background texture to your desired stony or rocky texture and cover up with a bit more grass if its just too much, or you can add patches of your chosen texture on top of the existing grass. I don't know how much rock you want to show, so I couldn't really say which method was best, but if you only want a couple of spots of rock here and there then I would suggest adding it on top, using an Edge Fade Inner effect - making sure that the outer opacity is set to zero - adjusting the inner opacity and the width of the fade to get the desired results.

    I would also draw the new patches of rock with the freehand tool and change path to poly by right clicking the fractalize tool - make sure you have the right fill selected in the fill box before you start drawing ;)

    Does that help?

    I note from the sample texture you showed earlier that you would probably only want about 75% Inner opacity setting, so that the rock is never too dominant in the resulting mix
  • Also, i suggest purchasing the Tome of Ultimate Mapping....it will help in figuring out what does what, what is what, and what you actually can do with all this program has to offer!
  • @Loopysue,

    This is awesome. +1, +1, +1.

    Mind if I try to turn this into a tutorial? Won't be able to for some days, but it seems like a critical skill/knowledge set.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Really?

    Thanks LordEntrails... even though I suspect that I might have picked this up from a uTube tutorial about blending textures in PS a few years ago, and simply adapted it to the way that CC3 works. I just can't remember where I saw it, or what it was called for the life of me! :)

    You are welcome to do a tutorial for applying the technique to a CC3 map if that's what you want to do - however, I agree with Lorelei's suggestion, in that it would probably be better to check the TOME first and see if there are alternative methods for doing this that may actually be better or faster, and play around with things yourself before you make your mind up about showcasing this particular work around ;)
  • Posted By: LoreleiAlso, i suggest purchasing the Tome of Ultimate Mapping....it will help in figuring out what does what, what is what, and what you actually can do with all this program has to offer!
    thx for advice

    I will do this
Sign In or Register to comment.