Whiskey1

Hey guys, I'm somewhat at a loss to proceed. I'll lay out a brief precis of the backstory. Hopefully, this will shed some light on the situation.

This is supposed to be a post-apocalyptic society where modern building is just now occurring after a long time. The community of Whiskey1 (so called because this zone is called that by the Coalition at the edges of safe area of human habitation in the 'Burbs) is rebuilding by, of all people, the Mob who is becoming more like a government in this outcast zone and furnishing things like jobs to generate a local economy; and thus, be able to buy all their 'legally' forbidden things. The Coalition tolerates this as this keeps out of the Coalition the criminals and the people who are not allowed into Chi-town. As long as they don't interfere with the Coalition, they are permitted to maintain their own government (as long as the illegal trading doesn't get too flagrant), but they regularly send in patrols to monitor the situation.

I'm thinking of a set of criss-crossing paved roads with houses on the side of the road; but I'm flummoxed as to where they should be. Suggestions?

Here's my beginning (very preliminary) map.

Thanks in advance!

LLAP

Nacon4
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Comments

  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Hey Ed :)

    I might have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick here, but a few questions popped into my head before I could stop them, and this is what I'm thinking now:

    If I were the mob, the only reason I'd want out of the main city (where all my biggest fattest victims are) is if the city was just so very well run that I was no longer able to make a living there out of straightforward honest crime.

    That being the case, I would design my new city to be the most drop dead gorgeous city in the world to attract said fat cat victims to move out of Chi and into my new... er... trap :P

    Such a trap would look both beautiful and perfectly innocent at first glance, but there would be some kind of design element, or even a complete underground city to facilitate my own ends....

    Does that make any sense?
  • Posted By: LoopysueHey Ed :)

    I might have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick here, but a few questions popped into my head before I could stop them, and this is what I'm thinking now:

    If I were the mob, the only reason I'd want out of the main city (where all my biggest fattest victims are) is if the city was just so very well run that I was no longer able to make a living there out of straightforward honest crime.

    That being the case, I would design my new city to be the most drop dead gorgeous city in the world to attract said fat cat victims to move out of Chi and into my new... er... trap :P

    Such a trap would look both beautiful and perfectly innocent at first glance, but there would be some kind of design element, or even a complete underground city to facilitate my own ends....

    Does that make any sense?
    It certainly does! Actually that is a very good idea! Also most of the 'fat cat' purchasers live outside the city. Usually in protected enclaves. This is the first time a city has been built that's more like the cities of the past.

    There is going to be an underground complex. That's where the 'Demon Doctor of Blanket Street' plays! ;)

    LLAP

    Nacon4
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    And though I wasn't thinking about it at the time, I look back on that post and realise that I'm basically describing the way Vegas is rumoured to have sprung up... except that one would hope Vegas doesn't have anything that is both nasty and secret lurking underground or in the spaces in the walls!!!

    You could do a lot worse than making it a gambling capital :)
  • Well, you don't attract too many medical patients in a gambling casino. This story is about a Cyber-Doc who made his way up in the world; but has some *very* nasty habits (Think of H.H. Holmes)! The skyscraper was financed by him and the Mob. Everything above the street is kosher, but when you go underground there is some very bad business going on.

    LLAP

    Nacon4
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Sorry Ed - I had to go and look up who he was. Ick - nasty sub-human creature!

    Even if it was his city, he'd still have to lure the people there by one means or another. It would be just too much like hard work having to go to Chi every time he ran out of victims to round up another herd.
  • Not a problem, Sue! I agree he was a nasty sub-human creature. It's not his city, well not totally. The Mob doesn't know what he's doing. They think he's on the up and up. As to the good doctor's victims, he generally trolls (the Demon Doctor) in the less well developed areas of The 'Burbs and gets them there. Plus he would have to get access cards to Chi-town every time he wanted to get people there (and with all the psionics around there; well, let's just say it would be difficult) and he would be noticed if he did thing there (security cameras everywhere, y'know!)

    LLAP

    Nacon4
  • Ed, the first thing that popped into my head, as Sue also observed was Vegas. That being said if this were post apocalyptic my main drivers would all be elevating my safety status followed by potential material gain and advantages that would advance those goals.

    Id be thinking, clean water, safety, medical attention, food, and opportunity.

    If this were a place of glitz, would the only people wealthy enough to come be ok knowing it was the mob, or would practicality and a chance for a step up with simple but solid services and opportunities pull in the poor and easily swayed group that the mob can easily advance their influence on?

    Anyway, this sounds like a fun project!

    My 2 pennies,
    Bill
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Well, Ed - looks like we're both quite eagerly awaiting the update :)
  • A number of nice looking places, 1800s and 1900s, had tunnels under various parts of town. The nefarious things took place in the tunnels. And sometimes wars would take place in the tunnels over who controlled the tunnels.
  • Nacon4: Going back to your original query, settlement layouts generally are dependent on a number of things, such as local topography, proximity to services and roads. In a post-apocalyptic setting of somewhere that was once built-upon, there'll be rubble to consider too, and the pre-existing layout of streets and buildings. Have any of those earlier buildings survived? Does the rubble provide a useful source of material (stone or brick, say) that could be reused by the new builders? If so, how far would they wish to/be able to move enough of it to be viable? Does the Mob have any preferences for the layout of the rebuilt area (such as access to the tunnel entry areas, from the discussion already)? And does the tunnel system have a previous function - most likely sewers, if so, or perhaps culverted streams? If sewers or streams, do they still work as such?

    Depending on how much work you may want to put into this, it could be worth researching how some of the European and Japanese cities were rebuilt after the Second World War, to get a better feel for how such regrowth of settlement can occur. You can also choose that way what kind of level of destruction of the old city happened, by examining different actual city examples.

    At present, your initial map layout looks rather too clean and simple to me, as if the site had never been used before at all, and was already perfectly levelled, ready for building. Your backstory though suggests there could be some kind of shanty town already on or near this area, aside from whatever survived from the pre-apocalypse time. If so, the new settlement might grow in a more organic fashion than the classic US grid-style approach might suggest.
  • @Bill, you're right-I was thinking of safety, clean water, food and opportunity. Medical attention was the primary goal of this map. I was going to have a skyscraper (a new one) be the medical practice that was central to the story. Plus it affords me an opportunity for a moral quandary for the players. Do they destroy the good- the medical facility which is keeping up the neighborhood; just to destroy the bad- the underground complex of the 'Demon Doctor'?

    @Jim, you and I are in total agreement. There are indeed tunnels and underground places all over the place. The rebuilding of the area would have required that these areas be cleaned out and restored for water, sewage lines, power cables. etc.

    @Wyvern, I did do some spot research on the rebuilding projects and it does seem to me that they, the Mob and the good doctor, would want to construct an area rather like the old cities for sentimental reasons (getting people to come live there-a remnant of the old days) and practical ones (what would be the easiest way to construct part of a new city. Would there be a more organic feel to the place. Likely, but remember when the Mob announces immanent domain there's very little to stop them when on one hand they offer you cash to leave, and threatening their safety/lives if they stay. Also remember the Black Market where the people who are trying to stay, answers to the Mob (which would forbid them selling any weapons/devices that could thwart the Mob's plans.)

    @Sue, well I am trying to think how I would get those partial C curves coming off the roads. The ones that allow you to turn off the paved roads onto the streets. It's elluding me.

    LLAP

    Nacon4
  • Ok, version 2. *Very* preliminary. What think you?

    LLAP

    Nacon4
  • I can still enter some shantytown to this map, in addition to ruined buildings.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    You mean slip roads?

    I don't use the road/path drawing tools, so this is not the definitive method.

    Set the line width to the required width of the road, and ensure that you have chosen the correct texture for the road. (In my Merelan City map the width of the biggest roads varies between 10 and 20 units, and the texture I use is one of the Sand fills, but you could use any suitable fill)

    Pick either the path or curve tool and start drawing - whatever path you like, remembering that to end it you right click the mouse.

    You can add segments of any shape and width you please at any point you like.

    I hope that helps.
  • Thank you Sue. That is now in my bag of tips and tricks.

    LLAP

    Nacon4
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    I'm not particularly enjoying the grid, though I am not used to living in cities and towns laid out that way. UK towns tend to be a hybrid between grid and radial, depending on how old the settlement is and how damaged its been at various times in its existence, for example by fire (think of the great fire of London), or more recently by WW2 bombing raids.

    Would it not be better to lay out the ruined system first and impose the grid on top of it? That way the development of the city would perhaps look and feel a bit more natural for 'grid-phobes' like me.

    Just a thought :)
  • JimPJimP 🖼️ 280 images Cartographer
    edited September 2016
    And most towns and cities who have streams, lakes, and rivers in/near them, have street that follow the curves of the water side land. Then later roads are gridded, so this means you will have roads meeting at angles, some buildings will be narrow.

    New Orleans is a prime emaple of this.
  • I forgot to ask, what level of technology are they back to? Im thinking are these new tunnels? How were they excavated etc?

    See, now you have me curious and wanting a seat at the game table!

    Bill
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Posted By: Nacon4Thank you Sue. That is now in my bag of tips and tricks.

    LLAP

    Nacon4
    Thanks Ed

    I think you ninja'd me when I was delivering my critique of your most recent WIP - twice in a row, which is why my comments seem to be rather oddly placed! LOL :)
  • The tunnels could have been there for decades, even over a century. Maintenance tunnels could connect basements of any older buildings from before the collapse.
  • Posted By: JimPAnd most towns and cities who have streams, lakes, and rivers in/near them, have street that follow the curves of the water side land. Then later roads are gridded, so this means you will have roads meeting at angles, some buildings will be narrow.

    New Orleans is a prime emaple of this.
    This is true; but this is an inland city. Water being pumped from offstage as it were. I'm sure that I could reconfigure the map, but I wanted the water to be offstage. It's definitely important, but is not essential to the story.
    Posted By: LoopysueI'm not particularly enjoying the grid, though I am not used to living in cities and towns laid out that way. UK towns tend to be a hybrid between grid and radial, depending on how old the settlement is and how damaged its been at various times in its existence, for example by fire (think of the great fire of London), or more recently by WW2 bombing raids.

    Would it not be better to lay out the ruined system first and impose the grid on top of it? That way the development of the city would perhaps look and feel a bit more natural for 'grid-phobes' like me.

    Just a thought :)
    I'm giving that some thought; but just outside of Chicago the streets tend to be high and narrow. That's what I thought they would do in restoring an older system of building; but taking the trouble to widen things (But they turned out to be too narrow for my tastes). I keep imagining a terrain like Houston. Relatively flat with a large system of roads (You build it and they will come!)

    I don't know what you mean by ninja'd you! I hope that I didn't offend you; such was not my intent!
    Posted By: BillI forgot to ask, what level of technology are they back to? Im thinking are these new tunnels? How were they excavated etc?

    See, now you have me curious and wanting a seat at the game table!

    Bill
    Why thank you. Yes the tech is roughly equivalent to ours with a great deal deemed illegal to the Coalition. In the outlying areas it very much like a cross between eighteenth century and twenty-first century. With access to twenty-third technology available to the Coalition. Plus the interdimensional and offworld technology the Mob has access to things that would freak out the Coalition, if they knew.

    Yes, they have access to things like Plasma Ejectors and Railguns! :)

    LLAP

    Nacon4
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Posted By: Nacon4I don't know what you mean by ninja'd you! I hope that I didn't offend you; such was not my intent!
    Not at all!!! LOL!!!

    Its the term we use on the Guild to describe the interruption of one comment by another that is posted at exactly the same time - so that everything starts to look very slightly out of order :)

    Offend me? Never! LOL
  • And remember this is only the top map. The real fun comes in the underground below! ;)
  • The reason I'm so off in posting because I'm in the New England area of the US. Plus I keep really weird hours ;p

    LLAP

    Nacon4
  • Lol...I'm south if you, and I also keep really weird hours.

    Here's something you might want to think about. Cities are not inanimate objects. They grow and evolve with need and opportunity. They are almost NEVER planned out from start to finish, and even the ones that are planned... Those plans never make it past initial execution.

    What I mean is...you've got all of your streets gridded out, and you've started your building on the left side there... But most towns and cities start as small villages and expand outward from the center. Roads tend to follow the landscape, especially if you want your city to be beautiful enough to attract all those victims!

    I would break up that grid pattern a bit. That's just me.
  • edited September 2016
    Posted By: Nacon4
    Posted By: JimPAnd most towns and cities who have streams, lakes, and rivers in/near them, have street that follow the curves of the water side land. Then later roads are gridded, so this means you will have roads meeting at angles, some buildings will be narrow.

    New Orleans is a prime emaple of this.
    This is true; but this is an inland city. Water being pumped from offstage as it were. I'm sure that I could reconfigure the map, but I wanted the water to be offstage. It's definitely important, but is not essential to the story.
    But even inland cities must have a reliable water source - like a river or stream, or even wells - or nobody can survive there (how did the original city, pre-apocalypse, come to be there otherwise?). So water, and easy access to it, does indeed tend to be absolutely essential to all human settlements. Yes, you can have water pumped in, or transported by gravity (think ancient Roman aqueducts, and the far more ancient Mesopotamian canals, for some nice monumental-scale architecture), but remember the quantities still have to be of riverine proportions, so the water piping has to be of similar size and nature, even if buried underground. For instance, in developing countries the daily water usage per person (for drinking, cooking, cleaning and sanitation, but excluding water needed to cultivate food) averages between about 5 and 50 litres (non-SI-unit conversion factor is 1 Imperial gallon = 4.546 litres; 1 US liquid gallon = 3.785 litres). Developed-world water usage is, not unexpectedly, significantly higher, averaging between roughly 100-250 litres per person per day, but the developing world model is probably more useful for a post-apocalyptic-world comparison (for speed, these are just data rounded by-eye that I took from this 1996 paper from Water International - free-access PDF).

    I guess if you're going for essentially the equivalent of magic though (23rd century technology) and a more-or-less deity-like entity in the Mob, you could easily assume the entire area has been planed-off flat, that new construction is pretty much child's-play, and that all the essentials for human existence are also technologically provided-for in means we 21st century mortals couldn't imagine, and if so, go for it! It's your city, after all! That does though make me wonder why you felt you needed others' advice for your mapping project.
  • I still need other people's input for this map (as it is the biggest project I've ever done; and I may have bitten off more than I chew in doing it), because it is a very complex map. I have included in version 4 a powerplant (Upper right) and a water/sewage treatment plant (lower right). And I *do* have a question doing it. Should I have put the circles inside of metal colored circles to suggest treatment tanks?

    BTW- Here is version 4

    Many thanks!

    LLAP

    Nacon4
  • Thank you, Charles!

    I was thinking of adding onto the Grocery complex (bottom left) for more services; that, at the moment, I can't think of!

    We'll see. I usually come up with something!

    LLAP

    Nacon4
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