What do you think?

I got my money back of that friend of mine... and now, thanks to all the lovely examples uploaded to the forum I can't decide whether to get Character Artist, or Dungeon Designer!

I guess I have to decide whether I want the one reader (there's only one, bless him) who has promised to read my story to know what the characters look like, or the layout of the Sayer temple in Merelan!

I'm saving up as much of a surprise for him as possible, so I'm asking you for your thoughts on the matter to honour the "Top Secret" stamp on the front of my folder:-

If you were reading a great big dusty old fantasy novel, apart from the world maps, if the author could only afford to get one piece of software at a time, would you be more interested in the characters... or the layout of the Sayer temple (which is the size of the Vatican City) with its museum of monsters and all its fabulous mosaics... not forgetting the anamorphous messages they contain...

I have attached an image of "The Ambassadors" painted in 1533 by Hans Holbein the younger to illustrate what an anamorphous image is. The skull is only visible when you view the actual painting from the side. Originally this painting was hung on a stairway wall, so you could see the skull as you came up the stairs before turning the corner to carry on up the second flight.

EDIT: Of course, I could get City Designer instead, and map the detail of the cities?

Comments

  • I think i would prefer the layout of the temple/museums - only if a majority of the novel takes place there. I have an easier time formulating an image of character in my head (as long as the writer has given a good description of said character), than in image of a layout or map. But that's just how my brain works.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    edited June 2016
    Now isn't that interesting - I find visualising the characters really difficult, which makes describing them an exercise from hell. I get seriously tied in clunky great knots with it - like this (lol):

    Jerrosar had high cheek bones, a straight nose, a gull-wing brow and a well defined jaw. His piebald pattern… symmetrical either side of his ventral line… was as sharp and clear as the day it was formed; ebony and black on his upper and outer sides, and creamy gold-white on his inner and undersides.  The paler shade of his hairless muzzle merged into the darkness below the solid gold of his eyes through a band of flowing dots and round-ended lines which flowed down the sides of his face. Aside from the hunter's blade that was strapped to his shin, he was clothed in nothing more than the silken black locks of his never-cut mane, and a long weighted loincloth of cobalt blue.

    That stiff little passage is why I would want to cut it out from the rest (which it totally spoils) and draw a picture instead... but I still don't know what to do for the best.

    This is a really difficult decision to make, since once I've done it I can't take it back. I'm not likely to be able to afford to buy anything other than food after that, until I publish the second book.

    EDIT: This is another problematical passage of character description, where the two protagonists (Astra and Eonat) meet for the first time when Astra catches the boy as he is about to fall to his death from the wall of the temple. I'm wondering if this 'does it' for people who can visualise characters from description?

            Astra pulled herself and the arm she was holding upwards by straightening her back with a drawn out grunt.  She wasn’t as strong as an adult yet, but neither was Eonat as heavy as one.
            The boy’s face was close to hers now, and in the beam of light she could see the pale oneness of his colour.  He was a warm tan all over, and his trimmed but tousled hair was just a paler shade of it.
            Astra stared into those strange discs that were his eyes – the black of night, set in pools of oceanic blue, and then in white - concentric rings.  They weren’t… unattractive, but definitely not the kind of eyes she was used to staring into at point blank range… not that she’d spent any time staring into anyone’s eyes at such close range before now.
            Her nostrils flared.  This was as close as she had ever been to a creature that was ‘other’ than Zorrani, and the heat of Eonat’s body wafted up into her face.
            He smelled different.
            She could smell his fear, and the blood from his wound.  In fact, at this range, she could more smell the things she knew about him than read them in his cluttered and ill-disciplined Blucran mind.
    These Blucrans really were quite odorous, but there again, Eonat’s scent was nowhere near as offensive as the mingled stench of the unwashed crowd she walked among on a daily basis down on the flats.  His scent was softer, more… cub like.  Yes, that was it.  He smelled like a cub – a lonely, frightened, and wounded cub.
            And just like that, Astra’s waking senses switched into full protective adult mode.  She blinked, and pulled Eonat up onto his one good leg on the peak of the buttress where it curved to meet the wall.
  • Cool stuff. I got my programs in this order,
    Campaign Cartographer
    City Designer
    Dungeon Designer
    Character Artist
  • edited June 2016
    The second passage is exactly the kind of writing i love.....not too much detail, but just enough for MY OWN imagination to take flight. Personally, this is why I read. If i wanted to SEE everything laid out in front of me, i'd watch a movie. That is a big part of why i usually avoid any movies/shows based off of books i've read.....i've got this whole world imagined based off of the descriptions the author provided that allows MY imagination to run wild, not some producer's. But, again, that's just ME :)

    Edited: Also, i'm pretty sure if you are not satisfied with the product you can get refund....sooooooo...... :)
  • DogtagDogtag Moderator, Betatester Traveler
    Personally, if reading a story, I would prefer maps over character portraits.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Thanks Charles.

    I'm beginning to lean more in the direction of Dungeon Designer. I'll just have to live with the clunky character descriptions. After all, if I go and cut them out in favour of portraits drawn in Character Artist, anyone else who reads it without the benefit of a PC or a phone to refer to the graphics on the webpage... They aren't going to have the faintest idea what the characters actually look like.

    I'm not going to act in haste, however. I'll see if anyone points anything out that I haven't thought about in the next couple of days ;)
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    edited June 2016
    Posted By: LoreleiIf i wanted to SEE everything laid out in front of me, i'd watch a movie.
    I completely identify with that sentiment. Seeing the movie after reading the book is always a let down. I did that with Frank Herbert's Dune... and I'll never watch another movie based on a book I've read. I also find it rather boring reading a book when I've already seen the movie.
    Posted By: Loreleijust enough for MY OWN imagination to take flight
    That's a really useful tip, Lorelei. You have no idea just how useful. You have just taught me to describe 'on the fly', in the middle of all the action, using one character's perception of another character to do the work for me. THANK YOU :-)
    Posted By: DogtagPersonally, if reading a story, I would prefer maps over character portraits.
    I think the only reason I have been unable to make up my mind about illustrating the characters is because I have a problem visualising things by written description, so none of my descriptions make any sense to me a couple of days later, when the scene has faded from mind.
  • I have a completely different perspective to give... although as a writer, myself, I think I can understand the problem of coming up with character descriptions! Here's something that may help you with that... What I usually do... is pick one or two characteristics to highlight, and then I sort of gloss over the rest... like I might describe the someone's eyes, or perhaps their smile, or maybe even their voice, in detail... then give a general description... for example:

    Kendra took a long look at her rescuer. She knew he was strong; she expected a tall, muscle bound, military type. What she saw gave her a bit of a shock. This man was tall, but not overly so, with a lanky, wiry build. He had an angular face, mid length, wavy black hair. And then she looked into his eyes…fell into them was more like it. His eyes were a flint, icy blue, almost silver… but there was an inner fire there; his eyes, burned and froze her on the spot, but she couldn’t look away.

    But back to the question at hand. Character Artist or DD3? I would ask myself which add on I will use more. For me, specifically, because I'm currently mapping a campaign, which includes continents, regions, cities and towns, temples, dungeons and caves... I chose to purchase the cc3+/cd3/dd3 bundle when I purchased the software.

    But I have a couple of novels that I'm currently writing too(when I have the alone time to do it!), In fact... I'm thinking about turning this campaign into a book... which means I will need the maps I'm creating for it as well. Most novels have maps for the story, but I have yet to see a novel that includes character images... unless those images are in the cover art.

    Now, once I get this campaign ready to run, then I might go back and get Character Artist, so that I, and my players, can create images of their characters.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Posted By: LadieStormI might describe the someone's eyes, or perhaps their smile, or maybe even their voice, in detail... then give a general description
    Thanks Ladiestorm. This is another useful idea to consider.
    Posted By: LadieStormMost novels have maps for the story, but I have yet to see a novel that includes character images... unless those images are in the cover art
    This is a fair point, and I have more or less already made up my mind which to buy, although I will be postponing the date of purchase maybe a week or two just to be absolutely sure I haven't made a big mistake. :)
  • JimPJimP 🖼️ 280 images Cartographer
    edited June 2016
    I've seen a few novels with a few character portraits in the book, even a few in magazines. Note that most authors have no control over the cover art. I've seen art on convers that have nothing to do with the contents. Like someone wearing Middle Ages type armor, and what the character actually wore was a space suit designed for asteroid work. The helm didn't hold in air, etc.

    This one I posted 4 years ago in here.
  • thehawkthehawk Surveyor
    For me, the maps are huge, whether reading, writing, playing, or doing. A whole lot of years ago I had the hardbound versions of the Lord of the Rings that had the black and red inked map of Middle Earth; the books are long lost to time, but still have the map. The Bard's Tale, Might & Magic, Wizardry, Gold Box - I enjoyed making the maps as much as playing the games. The Ultima series cloth maps (that I am building frames to hang up), the Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms maps - the City System! - that I bought as much for the maps themselves as the other source material. Today I have hanging on the wall of my office maps for Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, more Middle Earth, a couple different universes (one glows in the dark!), a couple different galaxies (and a Mass Effect one is a work in progress for me) and solar system, Starflight I and II, and deck plans for different ships.

    I love to be able to trace along a path the story is taking, or to see what else is out there, whether it be one of those on the wall, works like Karen Wynn Fonstad, or even those on the inside covers of The Belariad, Shannara, and The Wheel of Time.

    In my own works, I can't even get past an outline without having a map to show where we're going and what we're going to see between here and there.

    For the people, for the most part, as the song says, people are people. I can google images if I really need to have a visual that is going to come closer to what I think the character should look like and not necessarily what the Author thinks. Same for places, I can make a collage of what it looks like based on the Author's layout.

    So, uh, yea. Short story long, that's how my thought process works.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    edited June 2016
    Posted By: JimPI've seen a few novels with a few character portraits in the book, even a few in magazines. Note that most authors have no control over the cover art. I've seen art on convers that have nothing to do with the contents. Like someone wearing Middle Ages type armor, and what the character actually wore was a space suit designed for asteroid work. The helm didn't hold in air, etc.
    I've already done the cover art, Jim. These days, you do your own or pay some other artist to guess what the picture in your head really looks like :-)

    I'm afraid I didn't get that link. It was all about aerial photography? Very interesting - I'll give it that, but I think there may be a crossed wire in the hyperlink?
    Posted By: thehawkFor me, the maps are huge, whether reading, writing, playing, or doing.
    Check. Me too.
    Posted By: thehawkI love to be able to trace along a path the story is taking, or to see what else is out there,
    That's what I'm hoping to provide with the Errispan map - the route the expedition takes, along with the rest of the new world.

    What you said about the characters though, made me feel kind of weird. But when I thought about it some more the truth is that all a writer does by the word is give the reader a shove in the right general direction. The true birth of a character happens in the spark of the reader's imagination, and the true appearance and nature of that character is thereafter a unique and secret product of the reader's own imagination - becoming his or her own property, to be drawn or depicted according to the reader's dream of what the author really meant.

    Is that what you were saying?
  • thehawkthehawk Surveyor
    Yes, that is pretty darn close. Very few people can (without prompting, like with the sketch artist down at the station) describe exactly what they are seeing, and even two people side-by-side looking at the same thing won't explain it the same way.

    The Author sets the parameters of the character or scene, then we fill in the rest. Not just with how things look and feel, but how many times have you been discussing a book with a group and there are almost as many pronunciations of a name as there are people in the group?
  • It should link to a post on this site with links in that thread of 3 sites I found that contain overhead views of castles.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    edited June 2016
    Sorry Jim. We wrote again at the same time. This is a response to thehawk:

    In other words, drawing pictures of the characters (and probably not very good ones, since I'm no good at human beings) might actually detract from the novel, in as much as I would be forcibly imposing my own interpretation of the cast on others - each of whom has already re-imagined that same world in a slightly different and personal way, more relevant to their own way of thinking and personal preferences.

    I wonder why its so different with maps...

    EDIT: Have you ever considered that there are as many parallel worlds in reality as there are people - each of those parallel realities being an individual sentient perception of the actual reality? That said, we are all living in our own little stories ;)
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    I think I understand something else now.

    By imposing my own impression of what a character I have already written about looks like on someone else, I am in effect trying to tell them how to think about an entity they have already identified as a sentient being (which, if I was trying to tell that person what his or her parents, spouse or children actually looked like, would be at the very least rude and/or weirdly invasive), whereas, by giving someone a map I am merely giving them something interesting to look at.

    I'm still no closer to deciding however, because I still need to solidify in my own mind what my characters really look like so I don't go and change them half way through the story by accident, and this is where I believe CA3 might prove to be most useful - just for me, while I'm still at the writing stage.
  • thehawkthehawk Surveyor
    Posted By: Loopysue
    By imposing my own impression of what a character I have already written about looks like on someone else, I am in effect trying to tell them how to think about an entity they have already identified as a sentient being (which, if I was trying to tell that person what his or her parents, spouse or children actually looked like, would be at the very least rude and/or weirdly invasive), whereas, by giving someone a map I am merely giving them something interesting to look at.
    My thinking is that it's the 'already' part that is the key - first impressions being what they are. When you meet a person or place for the first time, that is the impression that sticks. So if it is painted on the canvas of your mind with words or it is a picture you see, or a place you visit, that is the defining moment. If I see the picture first, then you are better controlling the outcome you're looking for with your narrative.

    I don't think it it so much as imposing though - ultimately, it is your work, and you're the Author. You are the final authority of what is in these worlds you have created. People just get cranky when you mess with their perceptions, right? So it's all about how you introduce that defining moment and what tools you use.
    Posted By: Loopysue
    EDIT: Have you ever considered that there are as many parallel worlds in reality as there are people - each of those parallel realities being an individual sentient perception of the actual reality? That said, we are all living in our own little stories ;)
    I actually do, quite often. Have you ever read Number of the Beast by Robert A Heinlein?
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Posted By: thehawkHave you ever read Number of the Beast by Robert A Heinlein?
    No I haven't, but having just read the Wiki synopsis I probably will - after I've finished writing my own book. I am at least old enough to appreciate the humour contained within a 1980's novel :-)
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Posted By: thehawkPeople just get cranky when you mess with their perceptions, right?
    Oh yes. I ABOLUTELY agree with that one (You can't see me, but I am grinning like the proverbial Cheshire cat). I was once put right, in no uncertain terms (lol) by my ex-boyfriend, for having the temerity to change a minor character, having already read him a passage out loud from that particular scene. Years later, if he phones me to chat, he will quite often ask me how "Scribble" is coming on. I haven't had the heart to tell him that Scribble was the by-product of an immature plotline, and no longer exists.
  • VintyriVintyri Newcomer
    edited June 2016
    Posted By: thehawkI love to be able to trace along a path the story is taking, or to see what else is out there, whether it be one of those on the wall, works like Karen Wynn Fonstad, or even those on the inside covers of The Belariad, Shannara, and The Wheel of Time.
    "Ainnit the truth," my long dead Dutch grandfather used to say, with a cigar in his mouth. The idea of a fantasy novel without a map chills my bones (to say nothing of making me want to seek another book).
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