Posted By: LadieStormThat's great js, but how am I supposed to learn about making better maps from a cartographers' perspective, if the cartographers don't comment on what I'm doing? Doesn't inspire or encourage...
Oddly enough, people tend not to comment much outside of their own narrowly-focused artistic tribe. A whole lot of the folks at CG are more artists than actual technical cartographers. I have found that you tend to get a whole lot more feedback if you ask specific questions. For example, show a map and ask "does the color scheme look appropriate" or "does this sort of coastline look plausible given this set of constraints" or "is a map scale truly meaningless for a whole-world map" or "does this sort of [artistic treatment] work well for this style of map"? Those sorts of questions will almost always get some sound technical advice, some opinions, and sometime really bad advice.
Sometimes you can get good examples. For example, I'm (in)famous for giving rough outlines the Wilbur treatment. It's a relaxing way for me to spend an hour or so when I wouldn't otherwise be able to get any three neurons firing in a useful sequence. But I tend not to give a lot of advice for non-technical questions like "what do you think" attached to a map.
Anyhow, getting useful advice can be tough anywhere.
Posted By: CharlesWayneRobinson your landmass is a rather too reminiscent of Tolkien's Middle Earth or Beleriand."
I always like folks who complain that a map looks too much like Europe without a Mediterranean Sea. That sea was critical for cultural development in Europe and leaving it out results in flat stories with little significant roles for women. Or so I was once told...
Posted By: LadieStormThat's great js, but how am I supposed to learn about making better maps from a cartographers' perspective, if the cartographers don't comment on what I'm doing? Doesn't inspire or encourage...
LadieStorm,
I have to admit, I look more than I comment over on CG because I don't know anything about Photoshop. I have never had the money to buy it - LoL! I just showcase my stuff mostly, ask about the looks of some of my "experiments", look around and get inspiration, and get an idea of how interested people are in what I am doing (My Kelleemah thread is running 2,979 views so far in the Regional Map Forum). That said, I don't knock Photoshop users for using Photoshop. ;-)
Posted By: CharlesWayneRobinsonThis thread has turned into a great discussion. :-)
I agree. I'm finding this interesting on a few levels.
On the one hand, I could be offended by the comments that CWR recieved. "I have to say I'm not keen on Campaign Cartographer - it's a great tool for creating D&D roleplaying maps..." Well duh! It's not like we're creating these maps for the USGS or something. This person doesn't like them because they're good at fulfilling their purpose? Whaaaa???
But the reality is, this is obviously just another rude person on the internet who commented for the sole purpose of being insulting. Thus, the opinion expressed is of no importance.
On the other hand, what jslayton said is the real point. If you want comments on some artistic aspect of your map, or on how to use PhotoShop to make maps, then CG is a good place to be. If you want comments on how to use CC3 better, or how to achieve different artistic effects in CC3, then this is the place to be. If you just want someone to tell you that you've made a cool looking map in CC3, the PF forums are the absolute best place to be.
I'm going back now to CWR's original topic...
Thank you Simon, Ralf, jslayton, Monsen, all of the Photoshop artists who have created the bitmaps and symbols, and anyone else behind the scenes that makes ProFantasy tick. I love your software. I love using it. I love the maps I can make with it. I love that you continue to improve on what is already an amazing product. I love that I can choose to make my maps in whatever style suites my needs of the moment. I will be an avid supporter and a faithful customer for life. ProFantasy is the best.
Might sound like a stupid question, but are there even alternatives to CC3 (and the whole ProFantasy software suite) for creating maps, other than Photoshop, which requires fairly advanced artistic skills ?
I don't read CG forums, but from what you're saying it seems that the people critisizing CC3 are all Photoshop users. But Photoshop and CC3 have nothing to do with each other, one is a generic software for artists, the other is a specialized software accessible to non-artistic people. I guess it would be more constructive if people compared two existing mapping softwares.
And on a side note, I love CC3, I really like the small but very active community on these forums, it's always a pleasure posting creations or watching others'.
Posted By: SvaalaMight sound like a stupid question, but are there even alternatives to CC3 (and the whole ProFantasy software suite) for creating maps, other than Photoshop, which requires fairly advanced artistic skills ?
Yes, over the years some have come and some have gone. Not too long ago I saw a kickstarter for mapping software that was browser based. So yes, there are quite a few alternatives out there. However, like with almost everything the tools are all over the spectrum of usability and function. Some are good, some are OK, and some are bad. And even that is a matter of perspective. Some can do overland maps only, and some can do dungeon terrain only.
I've always been of the mind to use the best tool available within budget and usability for the effect I want. CC3 solidly became that tool when png symbols were added. Sheet effects then cemented that opinion.
Here's a short list of the ones I've seen that are specific to map making, not painting: CC & Fractal Terrains Autorealm Dundjinni Fractal Mapper 8 Dungeonforge RPG MapMaker Terraform YeOldMapMaker Astrosynthesis
Then there are all the paint programs that can be used to do map making, if you are artistically inclined.
Hexographer Cityographer Dungeonographer Icosahedral World Map Generator Cartoforge Cartograph Cartograph Studio AD&D Core Rules 2.0
Some of these have png expansions that you can use in other mapping software.
The AD&D Core Rules 2.0 comes with 2 mapping programs, one of which is made by Profantasy and does very basic limited CC2 style maps with only a few new symbols, and another mapping program made by the software developer of the program.
AD&D Core Rules 2.0 also has interrogation that works with CC2, CC3, CC3+, but you need to make sore you are running CC3 and AD&D Core Rules 2.0 as an Admin if you want it to works.
Some people also use 3d software and models to create 3d rendered view or model of the building interiors and exteriors and just make a render. They also have some architecture,/furnishing programs that let you make models of houses of rooms and add things like furniture and export images that are easy to use
Also note that some of the programs that were mentioned by me and Dkarr you may find are easier or better for making certain specific types of maps.
Finally watch for sales, bundles, and coupons when you go to buy any of the ones that aren't free.
Well, I just decided to do an interesting project. I counted up all of the pages of instructions I have for all of the Profantasy software I own except for the World War 2 atlas and the Forgotten Realms Atlas.
So if anyone ever feels like they didn't buy a true vector graphics program or map making program remember this:
The Campaign Cartographer 3, Campaign Cartographer 3+, City Designer 3, Dungeon Designer 3, Cosmographer 3, Character Artist 3, Perspectives Pro, and Diorama's Pro and the Tome of Ultimate Mapping come to a total of...
1008 pages of instructions.
If you add in all four symbol sets it jumps to...
1105 pages of instructions.
If you add in the Castles source maps essentials, the Temples, Tombs and Catacombs source maps essentials, and the Cities source maps essentials it jumps to...
1179 pages of instructions.
And if you add on Fractal Terrains 3 essentials it jumps to...
1211 pages of instructions.
Now, if you add in every single annual to date you get...
1643 pages of instructions... (note that this number does not include all of the extra maps and other extras that come with the annuals, it is just the actual instructions.)
Whew!...No wonder it always feels like I don't know anything about this program!...that is a lot to learn!
But I don't care, I love it!
Thank you Profantasy for this fantastic program and all you do for us!
Well Charles, no need to be jealous, you are a far better mapper than I am.
And the only reason I have all of it is because my wife decided to surprise me with a large amount of their product for Christmas. But I'm so invested in this program now that I am like Shessar, a customer and user of this program for life.
I've been trying to experiment a lot but I still cannot seem to get down how to make a great looking continent sized map. every time I try the edges look too artificial and look like they are drawn by an amateur. I hate that. But I keep trying. It seems every time I look at your world maps you are teaching me something that I didn't know. Then Dkarr comes along and teaches me even more. Then along comes Barliman and Dogtag and Jslayton and Ralf and Shessar, and Par Linstrom, and so many others. And they all teach me something. Sheesh!...I feel like I know nothing...lol
But seriously... I definitely do come here to learn how to use cc3+ better. That and because you guys are a fantastic bunch!!!
I went to CG, to learn from the river police...and the forest police... And the mountain police.... Lol I guess I thought if I posted my maps in both places, I would get two different kinds of critiques...here for those technical issues that make mapping with cc3+ better, and there for the general instructions to become a better mapper in general.
Not that you all can't do both...but sometimes you need fresh eyes? Besides, sometimes the critiques fizzle down too, and need to be regenerated. Of course, it gets hard on all of you to keep propping up us newbies when you have hour own stuff to do too!
Well, since the new Cartographer's Annual came out today the number of instructions has gone up to...
1647 pages!
Awesome!
Every month of getting the new Cartographer's Annual update, knowing that it can be used to create something truly wonderful sort of makes me feel like how a wizard must feel when he discovers a new spell! I just can't wait to get in there and try it!
For those of you who are waiting for all of the annuals to be updated, you should at least pick up the 2016 annual as it is exclusively made for cc3+
No more excuses..as Shia Labouf (sp?) would say...
Comments
Sometimes you can get good examples. For example, I'm (in)famous for giving rough outlines the Wilbur treatment. It's a relaxing way for me to spend an hour or so when I wouldn't otherwise be able to get any three neurons firing in a useful sequence. But I tend not to give a lot of advice for non-technical questions like "what do you think" attached to a map.
Anyhow, getting useful advice can be tough anywhere.
I have to admit, I look more than I comment over on CG because I don't know anything about Photoshop. I have never had the money to buy it - LoL! I just showcase my stuff mostly, ask about the looks of some of my "experiments", look around and get inspiration, and get an idea of how interested people are in what I am doing (My Kelleemah thread is running 2,979 views so far in the Regional Map Forum). That said, I don't knock Photoshop users for using Photoshop. ;-)
On the one hand, I could be offended by the comments that CWR recieved. "I have to say I'm not keen on Campaign Cartographer - it's a great tool for creating D&D roleplaying maps..." Well duh! It's not like we're creating these maps for the USGS or something. This person doesn't like them because they're good at fulfilling their purpose? Whaaaa???
But the reality is, this is obviously just another rude person on the internet who commented for the sole purpose of being insulting. Thus, the opinion expressed is of no importance.
On the other hand, what jslayton said is the real point. If you want comments on some artistic aspect of your map, or on how to use PhotoShop to make maps, then CG is a good place to be. If you want comments on how to use CC3 better, or how to achieve different artistic effects in CC3, then this is the place to be. If you just want someone to tell you that you've made a cool looking map in CC3, the PF forums are the absolute best place to be.
I'm going back now to CWR's original topic...
Thank you Simon, Ralf, jslayton, Monsen, all of the Photoshop artists who have created the bitmaps and symbols, and anyone else behind the scenes that makes ProFantasy tick. I love your software. I love using it. I love the maps I can make with it. I love that you continue to improve on what is already an amazing product. I love that I can choose to make my maps in whatever style suites my needs of the moment. I will be an avid supporter and a faithful customer for life. ProFantasy is the best.
And that's all that I have to say about this.
I don't read CG forums, but from what you're saying it seems that the people critisizing CC3 are all Photoshop users. But Photoshop and CC3 have nothing to do with each other, one is a generic software for artists, the other is a specialized software accessible to non-artistic people. I guess it would be more constructive if people compared two existing mapping softwares.
And on a side note, I love CC3, I really like the small but very active community on these forums, it's always a pleasure posting creations or watching others'.
Just my 2 cents.
I've always been of the mind to use the best tool available within budget and usability for the effect I want. CC3 solidly became that tool when png symbols were added. Sheet effects then cemented that opinion.
Here's a short list of the ones I've seen that are specific to map making, not painting:
CC & Fractal Terrains
Autorealm
Dundjinni
Fractal Mapper 8
Dungeonforge
RPG MapMaker
Terraform
YeOldMapMaker
Astrosynthesis
Then there are all the paint programs that can be used to do map making, if you are artistically inclined.
Hexographer
Cityographer
Dungeonographer
Icosahedral World Map Generator
Cartoforge
Cartograph
Cartograph Studio
AD&D Core Rules 2.0
Some of these have png expansions that you can use in other mapping software.
The AD&D Core Rules 2.0 comes with 2 mapping programs, one of which is made by Profantasy and does very basic limited CC2 style maps with only a few new symbols, and another mapping program made by the software developer of the program.
AD&D Core Rules 2.0 also has interrogation that works with CC2, CC3, CC3+, but you need to make sore you are running CC3 and AD&D Core Rules 2.0 as an Admin if you want it to works.
Some people also use 3d software and models to create 3d rendered view or model of the building interiors and exteriors and just make a render. They also have some architecture,/furnishing programs that let you make models of houses of rooms and add things like furniture and export images that are easy to use
Also note that some of the programs that were mentioned by me and Dkarr you may find are easier or better for making certain specific types of maps.
Finally watch for sales, bundles, and coupons when you go to buy any of the ones that aren't free.
So if anyone ever feels like they didn't buy a true vector graphics program or map making program remember this:
The Campaign Cartographer 3, Campaign Cartographer 3+, City Designer 3, Dungeon Designer 3, Cosmographer 3, Character Artist 3, Perspectives Pro, and Diorama's Pro and the Tome of Ultimate Mapping come to a total of...
1008 pages of instructions.
If you add in all four symbol sets it jumps to...
1105 pages of instructions.
If you add in the Castles source maps essentials, the Temples, Tombs and Catacombs source maps essentials, and the Cities source maps essentials it jumps to...
1179 pages of instructions.
And if you add on Fractal Terrains 3 essentials it jumps to...
1211 pages of instructions.
Now, if you add in every single annual to date you get...
1643 pages of instructions... (note that this number does not include all of the extra maps and other extras that come with the annuals, it is just the actual instructions.)
Whew!...No wonder it always feels like I don't know anything about this program!...that is a lot to learn!
But I don't care, I love it!
Thank you Profantasy for this fantastic program and all you do for us!
Now I am jealous - LoL!
I am still waiting on the upgrades to CC3+.
:-)
And the only reason I have all of it is because my wife decided to surprise me with a large amount of their product for Christmas. But I'm so invested in this program now that I am like Shessar, a customer and user of this program for life.
But seriously... I definitely do come here to learn how to use cc3+ better. That and because you guys are a fantastic bunch!!!
I went to CG, to learn from the river police...and the forest police... And the mountain police.... Lol I guess I thought if I posted my maps in both places, I would get two different kinds of critiques...here for those technical issues that make mapping with cc3+ better, and there for the general instructions to become a better mapper in general.
Not that you all can't do both...but sometimes you need fresh eyes? Besides, sometimes the critiques fizzle down too, and need to be regenerated. Of course, it gets hard on all of you to keep propping up us newbies when you have hour own stuff to do too!
;-)
1647 pages!
Awesome!
Every month of getting the new Cartographer's Annual update, knowing that it can be used to create something truly wonderful sort of makes me feel like how a wizard must feel when he discovers a new spell! I just can't wait to get in there and try it!
For those of you who are waiting for all of the annuals to be updated, you should at least pick up the 2016 annual as it is exclusively made for cc3+
No more excuses..as Shia Labouf (sp?) would say...
Just.....DO IT!
you'll be glad you did.