Thank You!

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone here on the ProFantasy Community Forum.

Besides posting here, I also post on the Cartographer's Guild and post my stuff up on Pinterest.
Since posting on the Cartographer's Guild, I have found that there is some bias against ProFrantasy created maps with some referring to it as being "cartoonish".
As such, when I got a great review from a person that is not a big fan of the ProFantasy Software, I knew that I had to share it.

From Alturax,

"Let me start by saying I am not a big fan of Campaign Cartographer.
However, I really, REALLY like what you've done with it! It's quite aesthetically pleasant, the shape of it is pretty good and fantasy-ish, and it has a pretty distinct style, which I quite enjoy!
Keep up the good work! And have some rep for all the hard work"

The reason that I wanted to share this is to say thank you to everyone on this wonderful forum. This is not a "rep" for me, it is "rep" for the great people that make this product and every member of the forum! I have not made these maps by myself. We made these maps. It is the great support, feedback, and mentorship from everyone of you that makes this such a great place to come to and explore our hobby. I have learned so much from all of you since I started posting back in May of last year and I know that all of you have a lot more to teach me.

Sincerely,


Charles W. Robinson
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Comments

  • CWR, thank you for reminding me of why I decided to stick with the ProFanyasy forums.

    You are correct that many out there do not like the PF style. I, on the other hand, do not like the PhotoShop style. It always looks like a poor imitation of google maps to me. *shrugs* We all have a style we like, and though I haven't been commenting on other's maps because of real life time constraints, I just want you to know that I love your maps. In fact, I have a continent on my world that I want to use your style on some day.

    Keep mapping because you do beautiful work!
  • edited March 2016
    Thanks Shessar!

    ProFantasy makes a great product. You can do so much with it. :-)
  • That's really neat. I've only been to CG a little bit and haven't run into an anti-PF feelings, but it's nice you got one to admit a CC-created map could be good. Well done!

    (And your maps really are cool.)
  • edited March 2016
    Thanks Barliman,

    I have seen it on other peoples threads, and I had one other post on mine that did not like Campaign Cartographer.

    "I have to say I'm not keen on Campaign Cartographer - it's a great tool for creating D&D roleplaying maps, but they're very clearly identifiable as created in CC3, ending up with maps that aren't very aesthetically pleasing imho.

    Also, your landmass is a rather too reminiscent of Tolkien's Middle Earth or Beleriand."
  • I have seen a few grouchy posts, but it turns out they were talking about CC2 or the dos version.

    I point to my new maps. One guy told me that couldn't have been done by using CC3. I forgave him.
  • JimP,

    I about bet that a lot of people have not revisited the software and do not know what it can now do.
  • Thank YOU charles, for making awesome maps that I've really enjoyed.

    I think I have also had a few people tell me that they don't like cc3.
    But I watched a video series on youtube about how to make maps in photoshop. You know what was striking? The fact that the process being used is not that different than what cc3 does.

    They were using a technique where they just have a black and white color, then they touched a few buttons, and next thing I know there is a whole pre drawn continent.

    To me, that's no different than us choosing a style, then drawing it out, and the space for land being pre filled for us . It is effectively the exact same thing.

    Then I saw this person load up a few brushes, and use the same techniques we do with our symbol placement to draw mountains and trees and plants.

    Then they loaded up some fills and made deserts and swamps.

    Sound familiar? It should, because we do the same thing.

    The only differences I saw were that we can't draw our own symbols.but we CAN outside of cc3 and import them in as png symbols.

    People who say they don't like cc3 just have to realize that it is a powerful fastCAD program, and can do awesome stuff, but you just have to learn how.
  • DkarrDkarr Traveler
    You can take those same brushes in PS and import them as PNG symbols into CC3, if you want. The software has an enormous level of flexibility, but it is not a paint program. The main issue is that people have become used to the "windows type" interface and the CC software does not use that familiar interface. However, once you have started to use the CC interface you can see how much faster some things work with that particular form of interface. I was using Microsoft Visio a few weeks ago, and that interface was torture after using the CC3 interface. But I'm sure that familiarity would make it not as torturous.
  • edited March 2016
    Thanks tonnichiwa!

    Tonnichiwa and Dkarr,

    There is s learning curve for CC3+ but it is not hard at all.
    It was easy for me to switch from "windows" to CC3+
    I guess some just don't want to make the effort.

    What do you think of the "cartoonish" charge?

    I like the style that I am using for my Fantasy world a lot.
    Maps from the medieval time period tended to be highly stylized and were nowhere near as accurate as what we tend to draw.
    I believe that the styles provided are a great fit for Fantasy realms and they have made several "related" styles as well.
    I love the new Asian style from January!
    I never did understand why people would make a "satellite view" of a Fantasy world with realistic mountains and all.

    I know that I would want to use a very different style though for a Science Fiction world such as for my Traveler campaign that I used to run.
    This would be more of a "satellite view" with realistic land features.
    I had an Aliens based Traveler campaign where the company sent in mercenaries to retrieve high value items and research, from both the colony and the crashed alien ship, before requesting the Colonial Marines.
  • DkarrDkarr Traveler
    edited March 2016
    How something looks depends greatly on the symbol catalog you use. Look at the overland symbols for SS1 and you'll notice a particular style that could be described as cartoonish. However, look at some of the maps and symbol catalogs such as in Annual Vol 5, 6, 7 & 8 and you'd be hard pressed to call those cartoonish. Particularly a satellite view map like the Great Lands, or the Myrr Dominion map. So those kinds of criticisms are sometimes just a way of doing an "us vs. them" division. I don't even pay attention to those types of comments.
  • edited March 2016
    Great points Dkarr!

    They even have a "Satellite" style and one for making solar systems.

    I can hardly wait for them to update the annuals - LoL!

    :-)
  • edited March 2016
    Well, lets look at it from a point of view of what people these days make maps for. In all honesty, very few of the maps I see over on that site could be classified as not "Cartoony". It is usually only the guys who use Wilbur or Fractal Terrains that don't have at least some form of "Cartoony" to them.

    Rarely do you see a "fantasy" map that isn't cartoony either. The biggest complaint I have heard about cc3 is that it always looks like somebody elses style. Well, that's because it is...but you want to know what is funny? none of the people that have actually made those styles we are using are the ones that are saying they don't like it.

    Personally I love that I can make a map that looks like Mike Schley's artwork, and John Roberts, and T J Vandel, and Herwin Weilink and the others. I have to ask myself, what am I making a map for anyway, just to make a map? No. I do it because I want to make dungeons and dragons worlds. And some of those worlds I want to look like the artwork in the Dungeons and Dragons books, so enter Mike Schley style. Others I want to look dark and gloomy, enter the Herwin Weilink style.

    Now, when I am making maps just to make maps, it is actually because I am practicing with cc3, 3+, and all of the add ons. Eventually my goal is to have my own style that I can use for my own maps, and who knows, maybe even someday sell a style to Profantasy when my artwork improves.

    Something funny about the cartoony comment is that cartoony is the exact reason I fell in love with the cc3 product in the first place. What drew me to it was the picture of the Pete Fenlon style on the front page of the Profantasy website. I grew up looking at his maps and loved them, along with all of the other cartoony stuff Dungeons and Dragons put out there back in the day.

    But DKarr is right, there are a few style's that cannot be called cartoony at all. The reason the guys over at the Cartographer's Guild really don't know this is because honestly I have seen very few users of CC3 over there that are active and I have seen virtually no non cartoony maps being made by anyone with cc3 and being posted to their site. I was tempted to get a map of Seattle and do it in a modern style just so they can see what CC3 can do but I've just been lazy.
  • edited March 2016
    Great write up tonnichiwa!

    Since I use a mixture of styles for my map - I guess I am just a mutt instead of a pure-breed - LoL!

    :-)
  • lol, so do I. Very few of my maps that I make these days come from just one style. My Pirate map was from at least two different styles maybe three, and certainly a different font.

    I am constantly amazed by people's ability to do things with cc3 on this site. I'm always learning things, even thought I have the Tome of Ultimate Mapping. It is so big that I often don't have time to read it.
  • I understand that - I have spent all day in my home office studying for my Global Marketing Mid-Term. :-)
  • RalfRalf Administrator, ProFantasy 🖼️ 18 images Mapmaker
    Thanks very much for your kind words everyone. It's always a joy to see what you all create and post on these forums, even I don't manage to comment on each and every piece. You are a great bunch!

    I could understand the "catoonish" look criticism (even if I don't share the dislike) when we were on CC2 Pro and early CC3. But nowadays? You can do almost anything in CC3/CC3+ with a huge number of styles available - especially if you take the Annuals into account. Oh well, there is no pleasing some people.
  • Thank you Ralf for all the great work that you do!
  • I see a lot less criticism of CC these days - probably because the tools in CC3 and CC3+, plus the annuals have made it a lot harder to actually identify a map as being made in CC. Most of the CC criticism I've seen really comes from people who don't like the learning curve - and even that is slowly going away as more people start to realize that just about EVERY decent creative program out there has a learning curve.

    I've got a friend who bought CC2 a few months after I did who hates it - but loves every map I've done with CC. He purchased every mapping program ever developed for gaming for about a decade afterwards, and hated all of them, too, because he wasn't able to use any of them to do what I was doing in CC2 and later CC3. He finally admitted he just doesn't want to take the time to master any program well enough to get the results he wants, so he's back to good ole' pencil and paper. They're no better than his efforts with other programs, but using a pencil doesn't cause him hours of frustration. Every now and then, I take one of his pencil maps and create a CC map for him.
  • edited March 2016
    I agree kristof65,

    People tend to go with what they are comfortable with and develop bias's.
    There is also the concept of brand loyalty.
    Plus - some people simply have .... strong opinions.

    :-)
  • I know I'm not as experienced as the rest of you... and I haven't learned, yet, what all cc3+ can do(working through the tome takes a LOT of time!), but I've tried some of those other programs... I think the reason I finally spent the money on cc, is BECAUSE of the difference in doing things. A lot of those other programs, Autorealm, the photoshop that I remember, paintshop pro... all of them... you still need to have SOME degree of artistic talent to make the types of maps they do. For someone like me, that has no artistic talent to speak of(at least not in the VISUAL arts) those programs are practically useless.

    CC is the first program I've found that allows someone that lacks the artistic talent to make amazing maps and artwork. Okay, so my pieces aren't amazing...yet... but I'm getting there! lol

    And I think part of the problem with the learning curve... is how it works with the way they think. The CAD engine goes against what they are used to... but it may also be that this product works better for people that are used to thinking differently. I mean... I know there is a lot of things about this program I'm yet to understand... but every time I learn something new, something snaps into place in my brain, because it MAKES SENSE to do it the way the cad engine does. A lot of those programs, even after I learn how do use a particular function, I'm still scratching my head because the function doesn't make sense.

    Of course, it could also be a jealousy factor.... those people that don't like cc3/+ because they have been making maps the other ways for a long time, and are 'accomplished' artists, and here we are 'young upstarts' that are making maps through cc3+ that can rival theirs with their painstaking processes! lol shhhhhhh, don't tell anyone I said that!
  • edited March 2016
    Posted By: LadieStormOf course, it could also be a jealousy factor.... those people that don't like cc3/+ because they have been making maps the other ways for a long time, and are 'accomplished' artists, and here we are 'young upstarts' that are making maps through cc3+ that can rival theirs with their painstaking processes! lol shhhhhhh, don't tell anyone I said that!
    I can start a new thread on CG with this quote right? LoL!

    ;-)
  • LadieStorm - your comment about Artistic talent reminds me that people often come from different backgrounds, with different strengths, which affects their perceptions of the tools they use, too. Maths oriented people are more likely to prefer the precision of a CAD engine based program like CC3+, while those with strong visual arts orientation are going to prefer to just tweak it visually until it looks right.

    I know that's definitely the case for me - while I have a pretty decent visual arts background, I am much stronger with math.
  • Posted By: CharlesWayneRobinsonThanks Barliman,

    I have seen it on other peoples threads, and I had one other post on mine that did not like Campaign Cartographer.

    "I have to say I'm not keen on Campaign Cartographer - it's a great tool for creating D&D roleplaying maps, but they're very clearly identifiable as created in CC3, ending up with maps that aren't very aesthetically pleasing imho.

    Also, your landmass is a rather too reminiscent of Tolkien's Middle Earth or Beleriand."
    Aesthetically pleasing is a matter of opinion. I still love the old CC2 vecter symbols, especially combined with the CC3 effects. My current project...cartoonie or fanciful?
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
  • DkarrDkarr Traveler
    edited March 2016
    Posted By: Shessar
    My current project...cartoonie or fanciful?
    I like it whether cartoony or fanciful, it looks good.
  • that's the funny thing... math is NOT my strong suit.... but neither are the visual arts... I'm a literary artist! But... My father is an electronics tech...USN retired. I learned a lot about how things fit together by watching him take things apart, fix them, then put them back together. Plus, I'm more of a visual learner, when it comes to certain things (computers being the major one!) And a lot of the manuals that come with these programs are written almost from a programmer's perspective. They assume things are going to click in the user's mind... and sometimes it doesn't.

    What first drew me into cc3+ was Joe Sweeney's tutorials. Because I watched them FIRST, when I look at the manuals now, I have that visual reference to go by, so the stuff makes sense.

    And Charles... don't you dare! lol... I already have a hard time getting people to comment on my stuff! You, Tonnichiwa and Chickpea are the only ones that acknowledge me over there!
  • jslaytonjslayton Moderator, ProFantasy Mapmaker
    Posted By: LadieStormYou, Tonnichiwa and Chickpea are the only ones that acknowledge me over there!
    Just because we don't say much doesn't mean we don't know who you are. Or that we aren't watching you...
  • Lol, Ladiestorm, Jslayton is right. There really are a lot of friendly people over there. Sometimes I get absolutely no comments, and other times I get a lot. It really just depends on what you ask. Remember that a lot of those guys don't use CC3 so can't really help you anyway, even if they wanted to. They can give you general tips on what to do to help your maps look more like a real one but as far as cc3 functions go, a lot of them have no idea.

    But that doesn't mean you shouldn't still try to be friendly and post over there. I still do, even though at times I have felt that no one was interested in anything I was doing. That is just the way of things. Sometimes people just don't know what to say, or maybe they don't really know how it could be improved. Or someone else may have said everything that needs to be said so they would just be repeating it if they said anything.
  • That's great js, but how am I supposed to learn about making better maps from a cartographers' perspective, if the cartographers don't comment on what I'm doing? Doesn't inspire or encourage...
  • I am old enough to rememberr when computer software had no common interface. Ctrl-P on one might be save the file and another to print the file. That was on msdos 3.2. AppleDOS all commands were the same for different programs, as far as I know. My back then Sinclair ZX-81, with 1 kilobyte and later on the 16 kilobyte ram pack, had different commands setup. My homework at university in the late 1990s was done on a Dec VAX 11/730. Different set of keyboard commands. I've used or operated cmoputers form the $100 Sinclair up to a multi-million dollar Cray. Nothing standardized between them, except they all had ram and used electricity. My first Amiga computers, no hard drive. That was a separate purchase which I couldn't afford.

    I cannot draw, much to the exasperation of 3 different art classes instructors who tried to teach me at community college.

    So I was delighted to find CC2, and now up to CC3/+. I had hoped when I retired to have time to spend one day or more on a map. But I just haven't had time to do so.

    I'm glad the software, and Profantasy, is around.

    Thanks !
  • Posted By: CharlesWayneRobinsonAlso, your landmass is a rather too reminiscent of Tolkien's Middle Earth or Beleriand."
    Feh. Considering how much I love LoTR, I'd take that as a badge of honor. ;-)
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