Sheets vs. Layers
LadieStorm
🖼️ 50 images Surveyor
I ended up plaguing Shessar with a set of questions on one of the show and tell discussions that I realized, after the fact, was kind of unfair. Not that I was being unkind or anything! And I'm sure Shessar is fully capable of answering my questions if my gibberish can be understood... It's just that the thread is in the show and tell section, where we are supposed to be discussing the maps themselves, suggestions for improvements, that type of thing... and my questions could possibly lead to an in depth discussion that detracts from the original purpose of the other discussion.
I am completely, and thoroughly impressed with Shessar's ability to make realistic cliffs, riverbeds and the like, and was asking about the process, as I want to be able to do the same with some of my maps. Well, the discussion turned in the direction of sheets and layers. Which is where my questions bordered on unfair for the thread. So I copied my reply there, and I'm reposting it here. There maybe other newbies that could benefit from my confused brain.
" I completely understand what the sheets do, and basically understand how they work. I liked the analogy the anatomy drawing with the transparencies showing the different 'layers' of the human body... with the base skeleton, then adding the different systems until you have a whole, complete person. I think if the sheets as the different transparencies that make up the whole.
It's the aspect of the layers in cc3+ that kind of confuses me... using the anatomy drawing as an example, I'm trying to figure out where the layers come in, how they work. I understand that for cc3+ the layers are categories... and that lakes, rivers, streams, oceans and seas belong in the 'water/rivers' layer(or category), cities, ruins and bridges would belong to the building/structures layer, trees, bushes and plants belong to vegetation, etc...
What I don't understand is how do the layers(categories) affect how cc3+ works? How do the layers affect how we draw our maps within the program? On top of that, the layers themselves can get confusing, because some things can belong to more than one layer, or category. Take oceans and seas for example: an ocean or a sea can belong to two separate layers - the coast/sea layer, and the water/river layer. Bridges could go under the stucture/building layer or the roads layer. Terrain fills could go under natural features, vegetation, or even backgrounds, depending on the type of terrain fill you are using. Then there are the symbols, that could usually reasonably go on several different layers depending on what symbols are being used.
So how do the layers matter? I mean, what would the difference be for putting my bridges on the structure/buildings layer as opposed to the roads layer? How do we use the layers in conjunction with the sheets? Or do we at all? Are my questions making any sense?"
Note** This is a copy/paste of my reply in that other thread. I'm not attempting to spam my questions, that would be quite selfish and rude. I did reply on the other thread that this post was better suited here. I apologize for any inconvenience.**
I am completely, and thoroughly impressed with Shessar's ability to make realistic cliffs, riverbeds and the like, and was asking about the process, as I want to be able to do the same with some of my maps. Well, the discussion turned in the direction of sheets and layers. Which is where my questions bordered on unfair for the thread. So I copied my reply there, and I'm reposting it here. There maybe other newbies that could benefit from my confused brain.
" I completely understand what the sheets do, and basically understand how they work. I liked the analogy the anatomy drawing with the transparencies showing the different 'layers' of the human body... with the base skeleton, then adding the different systems until you have a whole, complete person. I think if the sheets as the different transparencies that make up the whole.
It's the aspect of the layers in cc3+ that kind of confuses me... using the anatomy drawing as an example, I'm trying to figure out where the layers come in, how they work. I understand that for cc3+ the layers are categories... and that lakes, rivers, streams, oceans and seas belong in the 'water/rivers' layer(or category), cities, ruins and bridges would belong to the building/structures layer, trees, bushes and plants belong to vegetation, etc...
What I don't understand is how do the layers(categories) affect how cc3+ works? How do the layers affect how we draw our maps within the program? On top of that, the layers themselves can get confusing, because some things can belong to more than one layer, or category. Take oceans and seas for example: an ocean or a sea can belong to two separate layers - the coast/sea layer, and the water/river layer. Bridges could go under the stucture/building layer or the roads layer. Terrain fills could go under natural features, vegetation, or even backgrounds, depending on the type of terrain fill you are using. Then there are the symbols, that could usually reasonably go on several different layers depending on what symbols are being used.
So how do the layers matter? I mean, what would the difference be for putting my bridges on the structure/buildings layer as opposed to the roads layer? How do we use the layers in conjunction with the sheets? Or do we at all? Are my questions making any sense?"
Note** This is a copy/paste of my reply in that other thread. I'm not attempting to spam my questions, that would be quite selfish and rude. I did reply on the other thread that this post was better suited here. I apologize for any inconvenience.**
Comments
I always had problems with my maps with just sheets. There is the front to back and back to front you can use with layers, but I would still get things wrong and wind up with roads on top of towns as an example.
With layers now, I do still use them. Just not so much as my former CC2 maps.
If I'm using text in sheets, I make sure I also use the text layer for the same item.
Someone more versed in CC2/CC3/CC3+ will have to explain why layers are used. I doubt I know the deep down reasons other than what I've said here.
When I want to work on things and not move my roads around I can freeze the ROADS layers and still interact with all other visible objects, move them around and my roads are left intact. I can also hide the TEXT layer and all text becomes invisible even though the text can be in different sheets.
Most of these tricks I started implementing as I was trying more advanced concepts. For the longest time I hardly ever used layers at all. Only when I was forced to use them (CC2) did I spend time working with them.
For example... if I want my copyright to have these sets of effects, my ocean and land texts to have a different set of effects, and my number key to have no effects at all, I would need to put them on three different layers, so that I can manipulate each of them differently...am I understanding that correctly?
That actually makes sense, and explains so much! That's why some things I've been doing end up with effects I don't want... because they are stuck on layers that categorize them with other things that have those effects! And I've been wondering how I could make sure my number key had a different effect to make them easier to read, and to give my Map text labels effects that make them stand out more, without affecting my copyright. I think I get it now!
Thank you sooooo much!
Campaign Cartographer is built on top of FastCAD3.2. What this means is that in the background, the software is really drafting software.CAD stands for Computer Aided Drafting. So to understand the what and why of Layers we need to think like a drafter or an engineer. Lets say we are assigned a project to design a kitchen mixer. The drafter opens FastCAD and draws all of the parts that go into the mixer - Nuts and bolts, motors and gears, wires and windings. His boss now needs to order all of the parts. He asks the drafter for a listing of all of the nut sizes and how many of each he'll need to order. The drafter can try to look through his drawing to count the number, hoping that he doesn't miss any, or he can hide all of his layers, showing only the NUTS layer. Now it is easy to see what nuts are used and how many there are.
Make sense so far? Layers are first and foremost for organizing things that are on the drawing. All of the nuts go on the Nuts layer, the bolts on the Bolts Layer etc.
The way objects were drawn in the original CC software is the order they are placed on the drawing. If I draw a lake, then draw the land, the land will cover the lake. I need to hide the land Layer to see the lake so that I can delete it and draw it on top of the land where it belongs. Putting things on Layers let me manipulate what I saw. Layers played a very important part in the early days of CC.
So now that we have Sheets and Effects, that lets us arrange things, not by when we added them to the map, but by Sheet order, do we still have to use Layers? The answer is, yes.
In CC everything has to go on a Layer. Yes everything has to go somewhere. Even effects. Turn on effect in a map you have drawn, then hide the MERGE Layer. The effects disappear.
Layers are the cake, Sheets are just the icing on the cake. Layers are the foundation where everything exists in the map.
I'm sure you'll get more explanations. This is my best attempt at it.
A LAYER and a SHEET serve different purposes.
Have you done the tutorials on the quickstart guide and the manuals?
One job I worked at had shops, architects, and their managhers. So The electrical guys want to know where the power lines forv each buuilding and office are located. They can easily be shown. However... All of the shops are also shown the hvac and plumbing areas... so they don't occupy the same location in a building or office. So the architect would use layers so each department could see what they had to install, and an overall blueprint so managers could see if water and electrical were occupying the same space... for example.
( But I think AutoCAD didn't call them layers, but it was the same effect.)
Sheets I use as one sheet equals one floor (my currently dungeon conveniently being a tower, this fits nicely) - I don't use effects (aforementioned lack of artistic skill).
Layers I use to organise things within a sheet, so for example if I have secret rooms/passages/doors etc, I can assign them to a SECRET layer to show or hide depending on who get s to see the floorplans (I will explain that) - similarly the floor labels I put in a LABELS layer (along with notes and other stuff) which I can hide when required.
I use my floorplans to generate progress floor plans for the players (my players being determinedly incapable of mapping
That's where the use of layers and sheets is to me. For CC2, if I was doing the above, I would have had separate files for each floor, but using Layers in the same way.
Dkarr, I do understand that the sheets are what you use for all of the effects. I was just trying to understand why somone would create new layers. I understand why one would create new sheets, but the reason for new.layers is still a bit illusive.
And yes, I have read the manuals, but sometimes they are just technical enough to cause my eyes to glaze over...and other times they are just vague enough to confuse me. I guess I was trying to put things in 'plain text' to make them clearer for those of us that aren't tech savvy.
Hmmmmm let me think on this and come back...
Example one: you have an overland map, there are three forests, you want one of them to be partially transparent so the mountain range under it is equally visible. This forest goes on one sheet with a transparent effect (if the drawing style is not one filled with symbols, this will work as i've said it so far). The second forest is a place of mystery, largely unexplored, and even the boundary is a bit hazy to the mapmakers in the game, so to learn that, the players will have to go there. A blur effect on this can add to this, on a second sheet for this layer. the third forest, you wand to place a city symbol over the forest to indicate a population either elven, or given over to heavy forestry. you make sure this sheet is under the symbols sheet, and add what effects you feel important. now you also decide that you want to add some features to the map but you want to keep the forests as they are. if all the forests are on the same layer (as opposed to sheets) you can freeze them all, or even hide them, while you play with the other parts of the map. I largely find that Layers is more handy now for drawing, for grouping of things that may not be on the same sheet.
Example two: A Dungeon where some of the floors will be on one sheet, some on another. but you want to play with the walls a bit. if all the floors are on the floors layer, they can be frozen and hidden while you play with the walls. again, more for a building use than a final display use.
I'm sure that others could explain it better than me, and that my explanation is a bit simplistic, but i think it can demonstrate while we still have layers, at least in part. I just hope the better mappers don';t start throwing things at me. *g*
I guess what confuses me is HOW the organization is set up. Since there are 5 of us currently in this discussion, I'm going to use the 5 of us in my example.
The 5 of us have been given a toolbox containing tools.and supplies for a specific project... A 3D model of an old farmhouse. We all have. The exact same toolbox a d the exact same supplies. We are told to organize the toolbox, and use the supplies to create the model.
Here's the thing: 5 toolboxes organized by 5 different people building a 3D model? The toolboxes will be organized 5 indifferent was with 5 different results. And maybe those 3d models will stand upright, maybe they won't.
But let's go back to the toolboxes... Is there a correct way to organize? Is there a way that's more efficient than others? And when a specific tool or supply can go with 2 or 3 groups... How do you decide where to put it?
The purpose for the categorization is always up to the "draftsmen". If you figure you need the division then you use it. If not, you can put both types of nuts and bolts under the same layer.
Let's say your map will have both Deciduous Forests, and Evergreen Forests, and you make a decision to divide the entities for one from the other. All your forest entities might be located on the FORESTS SHEET. Your Deciduous Forest entities can be placed on the VEGETATION LAYER, and your Evergreen Forest entities can be placed on the WINTER_VEGETATION LAYER. With that type of division you apply effects for the FORESTS SHEET and both the Deciduous Forests and the Evergreen Forests are affected. But then you figure that your Deciduous Forest is located too close to your Evergreen Forest. You can FREEZE the WINTER_VEGETATION LAYER, and it will remain visible but immutable. Items from that layer can not be selected while the layer is frozen. Then you can select all the items from your Deciduous Forest and move them to where you need them in your map, and the Evergreen Forest entities remain unmoved.
This type of division also comes in handy with certain macros that do selection by layer, in fact selecting all items in a particular layer.
I have used layers in the past to move roads without impacting rivers and forests, as an example.
These are all good questions but explanations will make only some sense until you start using the tools and figure out how they work best, for you particular drawing needs. That is why the tutorials are important, they are practical uses of the tools.
A sheet is a tool that has some aspects, a layer is also a tool but has some other aspects. The difference between them is in what you can do explicitly with them. The purpose of layers is to organize/categorize like items, and some properties are inherent to a LAYER. They can be frozen, they can be hid, etc. The differentiation of a SHEET from a LAYER is that a SHEET cannot be frozen, but a sheet can have visual effects applied to it, which cannot be done to a layer. Visual effects is not a property of a layer.
So they are different tools for different purposes, even though you could "organize" all your vegetation on a TREES SHEET. The problem comes when some of the properties of a layer, like freezing, cannot be applied to the use of a sheet. At some point you might need to have that capability for ease of use of the software. Like in the case where you want your Deciduous Trees to remain static while you move the roads around in relation to the trees. In that case hiding the TREES SHEET makes the trees disappear but when you move the roads you might need to know where the trees are in relation to the roads.
A lot of these things become very significant when you are selecting entities to modify them.
When I'm learning a new program for the first time, I learn best when someone walks me through the process, and explains how/why a particular function works as I'm using it. You would think k a fairly intelligent writer who loves to read could just read a manual and understand... But no, I'm what they call a visual learner. I learn better when I SEE bow something works.
So right now I am going through the dd3 essentials manual, and creating a single level dungeon while I learn the process. The problem is sometimes I will follow the manual's instructions EXACTLY, but my results don't match what the manual says is supposed to happen. Or I don't get any results at all. And I think it's because for me, the manuals are missing one key element. They just say, do this, and this and this, and look, here's what you du geon should look like. But because they don't explain WHY I should do this and this and this, I can't figure out why my dungeon doesn't look like they say it should. I've done something wrong g somewhere, and I can't figure out where.
It seems like it keeps coming back to the layers. The manuals don't really explain the layers... At least not in a way that makes sense to me. Perfect example... I was trying to erase one of my dungeon rooms last night...and I have a grid on. Well, every time I clicked on my room to erase it, I got the grid as well. But I don't want to erase my grid. According to the manual, and even most of you on this forum, I should be able to go into the layers, and freeze the grid layer so that it's not affected when I erase the room. Correct? So that's what I did. I went into the layers and checked the box until there was an f in it... Meaning freeze, I assume.
So then I went back to erase my room., and when I clicked on it, I still got the grid as well. This King my grid was frozen, I right clicked 'do it' and erased the room...AND my grid. But my grid layer was frozen... Which only confirms to me, even after everyone's explanations, I have no clue HOW the layers work within the program.
And the explanations I'm receiving is what I thought I understood...but because I don't know the bow and the why, I can't figure out where I went wrong, or how to fix it.
The manuals tell us what to do, but they don't tell us why what we do works the way it does.
In a case like what you experienced it is very possible that the entity you are interacting with is not where (layer & sheet) you think it is. An entity in a frozen layer will not be selected when it is part of a selection range. In the case of your grid it seems like it is not on the layer you have frozen. The layers and the sheets do work as "advertised" but the entities on the map need to be located on those particular layers or sheets to benefit from the use of those tools.
To find out information about an entity you can type the LIST command in the command line. Then select the object, in this case the grid. This will tell you a lot of things about the particular entity. Then you can manipulate it as you want by either changing the entity's layer property, or moving them to the expected sheet.
What is the purpose of organizing things if they aren't where they are supposed to be? And how do you move them to where they are supposed to be if they are on the wrong g layer?
It is possible that the template has a mistake/error in it. A human created it after all, and over time there have been some templates that have had errors in them. I believe not too long ago someone complained about one of the metric templates and it was discovered that indeed there was an error in it. Not too long ago somebody complained about an set of instructions on the Tome of Mapping, and it was discovered that the instructions were missing a step or had transposed steps. Errors do happen.
In the case of what you are seeing I think the best process is to explain the problem you are seeing and someone can then direct you in the correct track. Sometimes explaining the ins and outs of the software when you are having a problem does not work so well. Because the problem you are seeing is aberrant to the way the software is supposed to work. So explaining how it works, when you clearly can see that it is not working the way it is being explained just increases the frustration and it also wastes a lot of time. If we are able to hone in on the particular problem and try to resolve it then we can determine if it is an error with the process, or the software.
Type LIST on the command line. Hit enter.
Select the entity you want to inspect. In your case the grid.
Right Click and select Do it, or type d.
You will see a listing of all the properties of the entity. If it is a grid one of the first things you see is the particular sheet it is located on. Then you will see a list of 2d Polygons and 2d Lines. Each of those has a color and layer number followed in parenthesis by the name. If the layer does not correspond to the layer you expected then you will have to move the entity.
To change the Layer.
Type CHANGEL on the command line, or use the left had side tools to select the change layer tool.
Select your entity, once again in your case the grid. Make sure it is the only entity selected ((1) Picked)
Right click and select Do it, or type d.
Right click again and the LAYERS dialog appears.
Click the leftmost box of the Hex/Square GRID LAYER, or whatever the GRID LAYER is on the template. A checkmark appears on that box.
Click apply or OK.
Run the list command again against the grid and verify that it is on the expected layer.
If you did this on the drawing you were working on, you might want to repeat the same instructions on the template you originally used. That way from now on the template will be correct.
One more thing, if the layer you are moving the entity to is frozen, selecting it will unfreeze it. So make sure to freeze the layer again after moving the item but after verifying (LIST) that it moved to the correct layer.
I was also trying to figure out the drawing order, because it seemed to me that the river should have been drawn first, then the riverbed rocks placed after that. Which leads me to another set of questions... Is it the sheets that determine the 'drawing order' or the layers? I know that you can move things up or down on either list. Are they supposed to match? For example: if your rivers are third on your list of sheets, should they also be third on your list of layers? Which takes precedence the layers or the sheets?
This was why in the other thread I said that I almost never paid attention to Layers. I really don't care what layer something is on unless I need to do something very specific. Since the wondrous addition of sheets, I find little need for Layers.
Layers are always in alphabetical order and the order cannot be changed. The only thing you can do with Layers is Freeze and Hide them.
Sheets determine the draw order and can be arranged at will by moving them up or down. The drawing order is the top of the list gets drawn first, then the next down on the list gets drawn on top of the first, the third down gets drawn on top of the first two, and so on. The second priority of draw order is what you place first on a Sheet gets covered by what you place second.
There are three sets of rocks on the above mentioned map. Some are on the river bed sheet, some on the stream rocks sheet and some on the tream edge sheet. You asked how I made it look 3D...Sheets and Effects. I am almost done with the tutorial I'm doing. Sorry that is taking a while.
Think of a part of the FastCAD engine as a "database" that handles drawing entities. Whenever an entity is placed on the map it receives an index number. That index number increments every time a new entity is placed on the map. Objects are drawn by sheet order, starting with the COMMON sheet and moving down the sheet list. Within each sheet objects are drawn based on their 'index' number, with object with a lower "index" number being drawn first.
Most of this is getting much deeper in the weeds of the FastCAD engine than is really necessary for drawing maps. Suffice it to say that you should use sheets to order how you want your objects to appear in "depth". Background being deeper than SEA, being deeper that LAND, being deeper than MOUNTAINS, being deeper than CLOUDS, being deeper than TEXT, etc. And follow the drawing instructions of how to place symbols so that your drawing looks good.
And Shessar, I look forward to seeing your tutorial, but please don't feel you have to push yourself to hard to get it done... we all know life comes first.