I really, really wanted to speak more about what I knew. I am under no NDA, but because I purchased a BETA copy (through a friend, I could not make GEN CON this year), and was in discussions with Ralf about some BUGS I found, I was invited to discussion with the BETA people. Again, no NDA's but a respect on my part for the people of Profantasy. It is a nice product, and when people see what it can do, I know the will like it.
I fully agree with Monsen: Communicating tentative release dates is better than not communicating at all. It was very clear from your posts, Simon, that you weren't making any promises. So, I'm not angry at all... just a bit disappointed that I cannot play around with CD3 yet. But that's not a disappointment in ProFantasy. I'm sure that CD3 will be an excellent addon and most of us will soon forget those delays once we've got the product in our hands. In the meantime, there are other things to do... Those who are not at work could for instance go back to mapping again ;-) CC3 and DD3 still have so much to offer!
Posted By: TheElfCCP Mythic (sadly EA bought them) Jelsoft
Just to name a few
Jelsoft offer you an expiring leased option, or a purchase with one year of upgrade protection. In contrast, ProFantasy offered a purchase option for CD3 with a least one year of upgrade protection and free updates, but most likely many more, and a reduced price upgrade no matter how long ago you bought the previous version.
Which CCP license and upgrade policy do you like? They appear to offer 30 days for 20 Euros, then 131.40 a year. You can't buy a license because it's a MMOG.
Mythic, obviously, I don't have any details on, so please do name some more.
Jelsoft updates are on a "subscribtion" basis, and you can buy upgrades later by paying for an extra year of updates (members area access) later. And as you can guess: if you pay for the updates it is good for addons, you can make informed decisions based on this. You don't have to pay extra if you like in Europe. I think the differences here are important.
CCP: Their licence is, like most licences for MMORPGs are subscribtion based, yet you can make informed decisions.
>Could you please point me at a company whose upgrade policy and pricing you approve of?
GeoControl is a one man company, that use a traditional method where you pay for the update when it comes. The big difference is they had an open beta program (for version 2) for anyone who owned version 1 of their program and I didn't see anyone get angry while they were waiting. Instead they got excited because they were able to test each iteration of GeoControl 2 as it neared completion.
The only difference is on release of version 2, I think they charged less depending on how early you bought the program. So buying before the release was cheapest of all and over a couple of months it worked its way up to full price.
Apart from great software that no one else was making, I thought the two things above really built community support for the program and the company.
Considering the grief I've seen other software makers for this hobby get over slipped "Tentative" release dates on software for the RPG and Tactical Battle software, I'd say keep your mouth shut on release dates. Some people treat tentative release dates once announced as being carved in stone and it brings out their inner whiner when it goes bye (just my opinion anyway).
I'd also, just to cut down on the whining going on, dump the policy where if you buy a CC2 version and the new and improved CC3 version comes out within a year after your purchase you get a free upgrade. That way those that buy a CC2 version of an add-on and are gambling on the new version being released within a years time can't gamble and whine about it when they loose their bet.
As far as an update subscription model rolled into the annual, I don't much care for that Idea. It forces people to buy a subscription to get the updates and I'm not much on subscriptions or monthly service fees outside of Magazines and MMO Games. Besides, even with the subscription model, you are still gambling on when an update will come out with no guarantee of an update on any given month or year.
I wouldn't mind the Annual containing semi-open Beta testing versions with a timed test use period say 30 to 90 days. But you should also provide a special feedback forum for beta testers tied to the Annual releases and a big disclaimer that it is beta software good until a specified date. If the beta testing option was a link provided in the Annual's download page, it could allow for control of the version of Beta software out in the wild especially if tied to a limited time use and old links to beta software being removed or going dead after an old piece of Beta software has been updated and re-released as a new Beta version to Annual subscribers.
Posted By: Simon Rogers I thought that this information, and the highly tentative way I expressed it was useful, but in restrospect I should probably have stuck to our previous policy of saying absolutely nothing about release dates at all. I'm interested in feedback on this issue.
Your policy has worked well in the past and it seems it is still as viable now as it has ever been. If it works, why change it. Please feel free to mention a release day as you are in the process of opening the doors for us to order said products. Personally I am more than happy to have the products available when they are finished, and from a company that treats it's customers with respect and honor (as Profantasy is famed for doing). Release dates to me are just a way to increase potential sales for bean counters (aka accounting departments for large corporations) or to temporarily satiate a very loud and vocal minority. The problem that stems from stating a release date is the inherent lapse that probably will happen due to all of the possible things that can and probably will go wrong. Cudos for deciding to stick with your original policy and simply delivering a quality product at a more than reasonable price.
I would like to note that I for one appreciated the occasional "status reports" regarding CD3. It was interesting to note how the product was taking shape and allowed me to build a healthy amount of anticipation without it growing beyond reason.
I like the status updates, but I would appreciate them alot more if we got a new status update when a "possible release date" comes and it isn't going to launch at that time. Even if it is just a note saying things are delayed without a new date given at that time, I would prefer that over checking on the site all day with no news at all.
I liked Ralf's status reports about bugs being fixed and the impact on the current status of CD3. Actually communication is the key essence in business and will provide a better understanding for all issues encountered in development. Of course different countries react differently due to different cultures, but to my understanding it only helps to communicate. As customer I'd even understand better that someone is working on given issues, which then will give me a better feeling about the caring for my needs.
I would be pleased to hear from ProFantasy that there's a kind of blog or similar to give a weekly status about the issues encountered in product development of their latest release, if they reached an alpha state or similar. Of course this will delay the release as well, but is necessary from my point of view to achieve a better relationship. There don't need to be some feedback for improvements, because this often leads to endless discussions not focussing on the development at all. It's a tight line between overhead and customer satisfaction, but if you can handle this kind of extra activity, I'm even willing to pay some share of these extra efforts in the product releases.
I'd change only one or two things, Simon. Instead of saying "everyone gets the free upgrade if it's released within 12 months after purchasing the current version", I'd make preorders available earlier. The message would be as follows: "Okay. We're planning to release CD3 within 12 months. In reality, it could be only 8 months or perhaps we will launch it in 16 months time. We can't be sure. But you can preorder now. You immediately get CD2 Pro and we guarantee that you'll receive CD3 as soon as it's available, regardless of the release date".
In that manner, you would avoid confusion and unnecessary discussions.
You may also want to do public beta testing once the new product is more or less stable (i.e. doesn't crash a system). Those who preordered would get access to the beta software.
It makes customers happy.
As to your pricing policy, don't change anything at all. The CC3 suite is more expensive than other RPG mapping software. But there are reasons why we, the customers, have bought your product(s). I own another mapping software. I won't mention any names. It's enough to say that it supports overland, dungeon and city mapping as a standard. You'll know which product I mean. It's not bad but I wasn't half as happy with it as I am with the CC3 suite. As to the other product on the market - which runs on JAVA - I downloaded a demo version. It didn't run well on my system due to JAVA and it doesn't offer me the possibility to do city and overland mapping.
Regarding the price differences between the European and US market: I'm one of those European customers who purchased CC3, DD3, FT, CD2 Pro (CD3 preorder), all three symbol sets, Cosmographer, Perspectives as well as Castles, TTC and Cities at the higher European prices. I didn't buy them as part of a super bundle.
In retrospect, I lost a lot of money. But I'm not complaining. I wanted to get to know the product step by step instead of purchasing everything at once. From a financial perspective, I should have asked a friend in the US to order a super bundle for me and send it over. It would have saved me a lot of cash (lower US-dollar prices, bundle discounts).
However, I want you, Ralf and the other members of the ProFantasy team to be able to eat and have a roof over your head. Your company is based in Europe. You need UK pounds to pay your rent / mortgage. Ralf needs Euros. The US dollar exchange rate has significantly dropped in the last 18 months. But the US is a strategic market and you probably didn't want to lose market share in that area.
Basically you had two choices: The one you made (keeping both the US-dollar and European prices as is, resulting in a price difference). Or increase the prices in the US to cover losses resulting from the development of the exchange rates, but lose market share in a very important and US-dominated market.
I think that you made the right choice...
I'm telling you all of this as a product manager who works in the IT industry. I set prices every day and have worked in a large number of markets (including Eastern Europe, TheElf).
I also work with salespeople on a daily basis. Some of them are pretty demanding and they usually get what they want. In fact, I'm sick and tired of only the "loudest" people getting what they want. Probably, 80% of ProFantasy's customers are perfectly happy with the current policy but they don't necessarily speak up.
Euro prices would be great. And by the way, letting friends in the US order and send it over to Germany isn´t as great an idea as it sound. Germany has something called "Einfuhrumsatzsteuer" (an import tax) which pretty much can ruin ones bargain.
But let´s try to be patient (NOT easy) and wait till Simon and Ralf are finished preparing the release of CD3. I am sure they will then solve all issues regarding upgrade prices and stuff.
Greebo: But you can order the software from RPGnow, etc with the cheaper USD prices.
And the difference isn't here because $ is cheap for a month or two, we seen this persistently.
Ok, I let my friends order from PFs online store, but I started with the whole shebang back in CC2Pro times before Cosmographer was released. And it looked like a great bargain with the bundle deal and a quite weak $. But nevertheless I had to pay the import tax, when my friends send the CDs over. And that let the bargain shrink to almost not existent.
Posted By: TheElfGreebo: But you can order the software from RPGnow, etc with the cheaper USD prices. And the difference isn't here because $ is cheap for a month or two, we seen this persistently.
Go buy a car with a dealer. Then send your girlfriend/wife and neighbour. Same car. Same dealer. Same salesman. Three different prices.
Then go buy a hamburger in New York, Paris and Moscow. Same burger. Same fast-food chain. Three different prices. Not negotiable.
This to me is a very simple issue: you can't please all the people all of the time.
Even if we assume everything TheElf is saying is a great strategy, someone ELSE will just appear and complain that this strategy doesn't fit their personal wants/needs/lifestyle/fashion sense/sexual orientation.
Who is right? The developer is always right because at the end of the day, if the customer doesn't like it, they have the 100% unhindered ability to choose NOT to be a customer.
If PF's policy on release announcements or release mechanics are such a problem for you, then go elsewhere and use a different product or don't use anything at all. If, on the other hand, it's not so big a deal that it won't stop you from using the product, then you're in no position to complain. A SINGLE, well-written, constructive comment sent by e-mail is all you're really entitled to, beyond that, you're whining and being destructive.
I honestly don't see how PF failed to allow their customers to make informed decisions. Their policy is very clear to me: you have 1 year of upgrade protection with your purchase. Anything beyond that is small details. I never felt I was in a position where I wasn't SURE if my decision was informed enough or not. I knew the policy and I made my decision.
If you purchased the product with the standard one year upgrade protection over a year ago and then made your OWN assumption that CD3 was less than 1 year away for SURE, that's your own fault for being ignorant. If you play the stock market, putting all your money on a stock with the assumption it will go up, you don't get to complain about "being unable to make an informed decision" when the stock plummets. In life there are no assumptions, you stick with the rock-hard information you've got, anything else is your own gamble, and if/when you lose it's up to you to take responsibility for it.
If you bought it over a year ago and are upset that it wasn't released within a year of your purchase - that's your fault. You gambled ignorantly and lost.
If you didn't pre-order but wish you were "informed enough" to do so a short while ago, and are worried you'll miss the opportunity and pre-order pricing: that's your fault for not understanding the concept of a pre-order.
I'm not a genius or anything, and I'm no more "informed" than the rest of you: and yet, I don't feel as if I was in a poorly-informed position at any point. I'm happy with my purchase...
As to announcements: it's clear to me that a large majority of internet users in all corners of the internet are unable to read and understand their own native languages. A sentence with a clearly tentative, "no-promises" context is too easily understood or interpreted as a "sure thing". And then, as Monsen mentioned before: once you're misunderstood, it's impossible to clear the issue up with everyone, and you just find yourself fighting an uphill battle on a muddy slope during the rainy season, and your opponents aren't soldiers, they're 500 tonne rolls of solid lead and you're armed with pizza sticks. <- That's what dealing with the vast majority of internet users is. Seriously.
Posted By: Davaris>Could you please point me at a company whose upgrade policy and pricing you approve of?
The only difference is on release of version 2, I think they charged less depending on how early you bought the program. So buying before the release was cheapest of all and over a couple of months it worked its way up to full price.
Thank you. I'll take a look. You do know that for DD3 and CD3 we gave a free upgrade to anyone who bought up to a year before we release, and that we do pretty much the same thing as them after release except the discount lasts more than a year?
Posted By: Mogul76I'd change only one or two things, Simon. Instead of saying "everyone gets the free upgrade if it's released within 12 months after purchasing the current version", I'd make preorders available earlier. The message would be as follows: "Okay. We're planning to release CD3 within 12 months. In reality, it could be only 8 months or perhaps we will launch it in 16 months time. We can't be sure. But you can preorder now. You immediately get CD2 Pro and we guarantee that you'll receive CD3 as soon as it's available, regardless of the release date".
Thank you for your comments.
In this example, do you mean that when someone buys CD2 Pro, we offer them CD3 at a pre-order price as a bundle? Basically, unlimited upgrade protection?
I have been following this discussion about CD3 for some time, without commenting, but feel a need to get involved now. I have one question: is Simon's "Tomorrow, Thursday or Monday are possible release days" another one of his "very soft" deadlines? If this most recent deadline passes, this has got to stop. I've never felt so held hostage by a product more in my life. I understand things (many things) can happen to delay these releases. That's fine, but just don't say a word about it until you can speak some truth with real merit. I love this software and am anticipating CD3 just as much as everyone, but can't stand all the "possible" talk. Maybe if we all stop trying to mooch a few bucks out of the deal and let the Pro Fantasy team stay focused, CD3 will finally happen.
You might need to join their forums and ask a few questions, as the deal he was offering was earlier in the year.
>You do know that for DD3 and CD3 we gave a free upgrade to anyone who bought up to a year before we release
Yes I was aware of that.
I think the problem is you can't predict how long your next release is going to be, as you don't have the resources of a big software company. So the main issue that upsets some of your customers is uncertainty: They don't know if they will get the upgrade, or if they will miss out. You could eliminate the uncertainty by letting people buy the software you have on offer and then let them pre-order the next version at a much discounted price. I know some people here will say no to that, but in the long run it will eliminate the uncertainty issue.
>and that we do pretty much the same thing as them after release except the discount lasts more than a year?
I wasn't aware of that. Looking at your prices I thought the only discount you offered was if you bundle software together.
Posted By: Simon RogersThank you for your comments.
In this example, do you mean that when someone buys CD2 Pro, we offer them CD3 at a pre-order price as a bundle? Basically, unlimited upgrade protection?
Yes, Simon. But ProFantasy defines the date from which pre-orders can be placed and when the sales protection starts.
Basically it's the same "business model" as the CD3 pre-order programme which started in December 2007 / January 2008, if I remember correctly. I very much liked that offering and it was an important factor in my purchase decision. No confusion. Very interesting for the customer. At that time, I ordered CC3, DD3, the "CD3 pre-order / CD2 Pro now" package and SS2. Once I got to know the product, I purchased the other modules which I currently own.
If ProFantasy was my business, I would probably stop the current sales protection programme and start selling pre-orders earlier (at least 8 months prior to the planned release date). Customers would get the current version of the purchased module and there would be a guarantee that they will receive the new version once it's there (regardless of the release date).
It's basically the same policy as today but it leaves no room for discussions such as: "I thought that you would release module X in March 2010 and therefore ordered the current version, which I already owned, for the second time in April 2009... Now I'm very disappointed, angry, etc."
Moreover, it'd be good for your cash flow, one of the most important factors when running a small business and working on new releases... but you already know that ;-)
Mogul76: As you see with the new preorder / update protection we suggest about the same thing, since it allows informed choice (and I would suggest alternatives)
While at car dealer, I would get different deal that would be based on negotiation skills.
When I buy a hamburger at a fast food chain, what they pay for the place, the wages, the energy costs, etc. are different, so I get a different "package" here. Also with different costs of shipping materials, etc.
If you buy CC3 download only at same store, at same place the difference isn't here.
If I make the purchase at Profantasy store => I pay a different price anyway. (And when their software is / was available elsewhere that was a good way to save)
The dollar per pound (at last) is starting to fluctuate back towards the levels we set when we determined the prices. It's at 1.74, down from nearly 2.00. The decline of the dollar has wiped out a lot of our increased sales over the years, and our options have always been, increase the dollar price - or decrease the sterling one. When we started out the dollar was about 1.50. Our prices have not nearly kept up with inflation. We have shifted the USD price for CC3, but that's the only step we've taken to try to make parity. The one option we can't take is to decrease the UK price - that would be the start of a vicious circle, and we'd earn less and less. Fixed prices appropriate to our market are very important.
Yup. But there seem to be a bug. Well, for me at least. It forgot to install the master filter settings and symbol catalog settings to my registry. I've sent a tech support request for this one.
That works, but I did just discover another issue.
No matter what template you start with, and what master filter you choose, each time you click on one of the button in the menu (using city.mnu), it reverts back to the vector style, instead of staying with the style of the recently selected filter.
Comments
Could you please point me at a company whose upgrade policy and pricing you approve of?
Mythic (sadly EA bought them)
Jelsoft
Just to name a few :)
Which CCP license and upgrade policy do you like? They appear to offer 30 days for 20 Euros, then 131.40 a year. You can't buy a license because it's a MMOG.
Mythic, obviously, I don't have any details on, so please do name some more.
CCP: Their licence is, like most licences for MMORPGs are subscribtion based, yet you can make informed decisions.
Same can be said about Mythic, EA, etc.
But also about Microsoft, cPanel, etc.
GeoControl is a one man company, that use a traditional method where you pay for the update when it comes. The big difference is they had an open beta program (for version 2) for anyone who owned version 1 of their program and I didn't see anyone get angry while they were waiting. Instead they got excited because they were able to test each iteration of GeoControl 2 as it neared completion.
The only difference is on release of version 2, I think they charged less depending on how early you bought the program. So buying before the release was cheapest of all and over a couple of months it worked its way up to full price.
Apart from great software that no one else was making, I thought the two things above really built community support for the program and the company.
I'd also, just to cut down on the whining going on, dump the policy where if you buy a CC2 version and the new and improved CC3 version comes out within a year after your purchase you get a free upgrade. That way those that buy a CC2 version of an add-on and are gambling on the new version being released within a years time can't gamble and whine about it when they loose their bet.
As far as an update subscription model rolled into the annual, I don't much care for that Idea. It forces people to buy a subscription to get the updates and I'm not much on subscriptions or monthly service fees outside of Magazines and MMO Games. Besides, even with the subscription model, you are still gambling on when an update will come out with no guarantee of an update on any given month or year.
I wouldn't mind the Annual containing semi-open Beta testing versions with a timed test use period say 30 to 90 days. But you should also provide a special feedback forum for beta testers tied to the Annual releases and a big disclaimer that it is beta software good until a specified date. If the beta testing option was a link provided in the Annual's download page, it could allow for control of the version of Beta software out in the wild especially if tied to a limited time use and old links to beta software being removed or going dead after an old piece of Beta software has been updated and re-released as a new Beta version to Annual subscribers.
I would like to note that I for one appreciated the occasional "status reports" regarding CD3. It was interesting to note how the product was taking shape and allowed me to build a healthy amount of anticipation without it growing beyond reason.
Actually communication is the key essence in business and will provide a better understanding for all issues encountered in development. Of course different countries react differently due to different cultures, but to my understanding it only helps to communicate. As customer I'd even understand better that someone is working on given issues, which then will give me a better feeling about the caring for my needs.
I would be pleased to hear from ProFantasy that there's a kind of blog or similar to give a weekly status about the issues encountered in product development of their latest release, if they reached an alpha state or similar.
Of course this will delay the release as well, but is necessary from my point of view to achieve a better relationship. There don't need to be some feedback for improvements, because this often leads to endless discussions not focussing on the development at all. It's a tight line between overhead and customer satisfaction, but if you can handle this kind of extra activity, I'm even willing to pay some share of these extra efforts in the product releases.
Best regards,
Targas
In that manner, you would avoid confusion and unnecessary discussions.
You may also want to do public beta testing once the new product is more or less stable (i.e. doesn't crash a system). Those who preordered would get access to the beta software.
It makes customers happy.
As to your pricing policy, don't change anything at all. The CC3 suite is more expensive than other RPG mapping software. But there are reasons why we, the customers, have bought your product(s). I own another mapping software. I won't mention any names. It's enough to say that it supports overland, dungeon and city mapping as a standard. You'll know which product I mean. It's not bad but I wasn't half as happy with it as I am with the CC3 suite. As to the other product on the market - which runs on JAVA - I downloaded a demo version. It didn't run well on my system due to JAVA and it doesn't offer me the possibility to do city and overland mapping.
Regarding the price differences between the European and US market: I'm one of those European customers who purchased CC3, DD3, FT, CD2 Pro (CD3 preorder), all three symbol sets, Cosmographer, Perspectives as well as Castles, TTC and Cities at the higher European prices. I didn't buy them as part of a super bundle.
In retrospect, I lost a lot of money. But I'm not complaining. I wanted to get to know the product step by step instead of purchasing everything at once. From a financial perspective, I should have asked a friend in the US to order a super bundle for me and send it over. It would have saved me a lot of cash (lower US-dollar prices, bundle discounts).
However, I want you, Ralf and the other members of the ProFantasy team to be able to eat and have a roof over your head. Your company is based in Europe. You need UK pounds to pay your rent / mortgage. Ralf needs Euros. The US dollar exchange rate has significantly dropped in the last 18 months. But the US is a strategic market and you probably didn't want to lose market share in that area.
Basically you had two choices: The one you made (keeping both the US-dollar and European prices as is, resulting in a price difference). Or increase the prices in the US to cover losses resulting from the development of the exchange rates, but lose market share in a very important and US-dominated market.
I think that you made the right choice...
I'm telling you all of this as a product manager who works in the IT industry. I set prices every day and have worked in a large number of markets (including Eastern Europe, TheElf).
I also work with salespeople on a daily basis. Some of them are pretty demanding and they usually get what they want. In fact, I'm sick and tired of only the "loudest" people getting what they want. Probably, 80% of ProFantasy's customers are perfectly happy with the current policy but they don't necessarily speak up.
All the best,
Mogul76
But let´s try to be patient (NOT easy) and wait till Simon and Ralf are finished preparing the release of CD3. I am sure they will then solve all issues regarding upgrade prices and stuff.
And the difference isn't here because $ is cheap for a month or two, we seen this persistently.
Ok, I let my friends order from PFs online store, but I started with the whole shebang back in CC2Pro times before Cosmographer was released. And it looked like a great bargain with the bundle deal and a quite weak $. But nevertheless I had to pay the import tax, when my friends send the CDs over. And that let the bargain shrink to almost not existent.
Then go buy a hamburger in New York, Paris and Moscow. Same burger. Same fast-food chain. Three different prices. Not negotiable.
Life isn't fair, TheElf...
Even if we assume everything TheElf is saying is a great strategy, someone ELSE will just appear and complain that this strategy doesn't fit their personal wants/needs/lifestyle/fashion sense/sexual orientation.
Who is right? The developer is always right because at the end of the day, if the customer doesn't like it, they have the 100% unhindered ability to choose NOT to be a customer.
If PF's policy on release announcements or release mechanics are such a problem for you, then go elsewhere and use a different product or don't use anything at all. If, on the other hand, it's not so big a deal that it won't stop you from using the product, then you're in no position to complain. A SINGLE, well-written, constructive comment sent by e-mail is all you're really entitled to, beyond that, you're whining and being destructive.
I honestly don't see how PF failed to allow their customers to make informed decisions. Their policy is very clear to me: you have 1 year of upgrade protection with your purchase. Anything beyond that is small details. I never felt I was in a position where I wasn't SURE if my decision was informed enough or not. I knew the policy and I made my decision.
If you purchased the product with the standard one year upgrade protection over a year ago and then made your OWN assumption that CD3 was less than 1 year away for SURE, that's your own fault for being ignorant. If you play the stock market, putting all your money on a stock with the assumption it will go up, you don't get to complain about "being unable to make an informed decision" when the stock plummets. In life there are no assumptions, you stick with the rock-hard information you've got, anything else is your own gamble, and if/when you lose it's up to you to take responsibility for it.
If you bought it over a year ago and are upset that it wasn't released within a year of your purchase - that's your fault. You gambled ignorantly and lost.
If you didn't pre-order but wish you were "informed enough" to do so a short while ago, and are worried you'll miss the opportunity and pre-order pricing: that's your fault for not understanding the concept of a pre-order.
I'm not a genius or anything, and I'm no more "informed" than the rest of you: and yet, I don't feel as if I was in a poorly-informed position at any point. I'm happy with my purchase...
As to announcements: it's clear to me that a large majority of internet users in all corners of the internet are unable to read and understand their own native languages. A sentence with a clearly tentative, "no-promises" context is too easily understood or interpreted as a "sure thing". And then, as Monsen mentioned before: once you're misunderstood, it's impossible to clear the issue up with everyone, and you just find yourself fighting an uphill battle on a muddy slope during the rainy season, and your opponents aren't soldiers, they're 500 tonne rolls of solid lead and you're armed with pizza sticks. <- That's what dealing with the vast majority of internet users is. Seriously.
In this example, do you mean that when someone buys CD2 Pro, we offer them CD3 at a pre-order price as a bundle? Basically, unlimited upgrade protection?
I have been following this discussion about CD3 for some time, without commenting, but feel a need to get involved now. I have one question: is Simon's "Tomorrow, Thursday or Monday are possible release days" another one of his "very soft" deadlines? If this most recent deadline passes, this has got to stop. I've never felt so held hostage by a product more in my life. I understand things (many things) can happen to delay these releases. That's fine, but just don't say a word about it until you can speak some truth with real merit. I love this software and am anticipating CD3 just as much as everyone, but can't stand all the "possible" talk. Maybe if we all stop trying to mooch a few bucks out of the deal and let the Pro Fantasy team stay focused, CD3 will finally happen.
Happy 9-11.
-demo.
You might need to join their forums and ask a few questions, as the deal he was offering was earlier in the year.
>You do know that for DD3 and CD3 we gave a free upgrade to anyone who bought up to a year before we release
Yes I was aware of that.
I think the problem is you can't predict how long your next release is going to be, as you don't have the resources of a big software company. So the main issue that upsets some of your customers is uncertainty: They don't know if they will get the upgrade, or if they will miss out. You could eliminate the uncertainty by letting people buy the software you have on offer and then let them pre-order the next version at a much discounted price. I know some people here will say no to that, but in the long run it will eliminate the uncertainty issue.
>and that we do pretty much the same thing as them after release except the discount lasts more than a year?
I wasn't aware of that. Looking at your prices I thought the only discount you offered was if you bundle software together.
Basically it's the same "business model" as the CD3 pre-order programme which started in December 2007 / January 2008, if I remember correctly. I very much liked that offering and it was an important factor in my purchase decision. No confusion. Very interesting for the customer. At that time, I ordered CC3, DD3, the "CD3 pre-order / CD2 Pro now" package and SS2. Once I got to know the product, I purchased the other modules which I currently own.
If ProFantasy was my business, I would probably stop the current sales protection programme and start selling pre-orders earlier (at least 8 months prior to the planned release date). Customers would get the current version of the purchased module and there would be a guarantee that they will receive the new version once it's there (regardless of the release date).
It's basically the same policy as today but it leaves no room for discussions such as: "I thought that you would release module X in March 2010 and therefore ordered the current version, which I already owned, for the second time in April 2009... Now I'm very disappointed, angry, etc."
Moreover, it'd be good for your cash flow, one of the most important factors when running a small business and working on new releases... but you already know that ;-)
While at car dealer, I would get different deal that would be based on negotiation skills.
When I buy a hamburger at a fast food chain, what they pay for the place, the wages, the energy costs, etc. are different, so I get a different "package" here. Also with different costs of shipping materials, etc.
If you buy CC3 download only at same store, at same place the difference isn't here.
If I make the purchase at Profantasy store => I pay a different price anyway. (And when their software is / was available elsewhere that was a good way to save)
This issue has been resolved for me without issue, as I expected it would be. Good luck to those who still have issue.
CD3 Master Filter
No matter what template you start with, and what master filter you choose, each time you click on one of the button in the menu (using city.mnu), it reverts back to the vector style, instead of staying with the style of the recently selected filter.