loydb: well he did say preparing the release and as he said they where just removing one or two bugs that had pop'd up with the last release.. (happens) the dates etc is them working out the exact dates for people to recieve the update for free etc.
Hoped that I would get an answer on the day when Ralf posted in this thread last time, or at least before the weekend. Now we have the weekend behind us, and the monday of the next week as well...
We are on the third release candidate, but we've found a bug which we have decided must be fixed before release. A week on Monday is a possibility for a release date, but I make no promises.
Don't worry about trying to fix problems in Windows Vista. Microsoft is going to release a new OS in 2010 named Windows 7. You should probably start worrying about what Windows is going to break this time. :(
Posted By: dutch206Don't worry about trying to fix problems in Windows Vista. Microsoft is going to release a new OS in 2010 named Windows 7. You should probably start worrying about what Windows is going to break this time.
Or just make a Mac version... the operating system trend is heading that way anyways...
Posted By: dutch206Don't worry about trying to fix problems in Windows Vista. Microsoft is going to release a new OS in 2010 named Windows 7. You should probably start worrying about what Windows is going to break this time.
Or just make a Mac version... the operating system trend is heading that way anyways...
Posted By: dutch206Don't worry about trying to fix problems in Windows Vista. Microsoft is going to release a new OS in 2010 named Windows 7. You should probably start worrying about what Windows is going to break this time.
Or just make a Mac version... the operating system trend is heading that way anyways...
We fixed the Vista-specific issues ages ago. They affected about 5% of Vista systems. If you have any other bugs, please report them. They were very difficult to fix because we couldn't reproduce on any Vista systems or versions we had, so we had to keep sending out debug versions with changes to the three volunteers.
As for a platform-independent version - the next version is very likely to be. CC3 works spendidly under emulation on a Mac, and is reported as working under emulation on Linux.
Posted By: Simon Rogers As for a platform-independent version - the next version is very likely to be. CC3 works spendidly under emulation on a Mac, and is reported as working under emulation on Linux.
Yep. I use Parallels to emulate XP on my MacBook Air. CC3 works like a charm. Glad to here that there's a possibility of platform independence in the future.
>I hope they're not planning on using Java. I hink it would be horrible
An indie game dev I know of uses it for all his 2D games and loves it. He writes his games and they work first time without problems on any platform that runs Java. I think his company name is Puppy Games.
I used to be a programmer who liked using C++, but the problems with different platforms and operating systems killed the fun of programming and I lost interest in it. I may get back to it if I ever learn Java though.
1st: While we say Java is platform independent, I am not sure about it. Some would say, Java is a platform, and others would point out, you can't run a full JAVA VM on some platforms. And even if you use JAVA you need to make sure you stay platform independent (path names, etc)
2nd: Java would make everything slower, for simple apps it is good, but Campaign Cartographer isn't simple. As you see, it uses a lot of resources even now, and it can be slow even now. Would you want to make it slower? Java VM has limits on how much memory you use, would you want to limit how big your drawings are, how many symbols you can use, etc?
3rd: For some reasons, even OpenOffice (another sun product) comes with many .exe and .dll files, and some .py files, and yet, I don't see a lot of .jar files in it, mind if I ask why? If even SUN doesn't think that JAVA is efficient enough for their office suite, which is present on numerous platforms, we have to assume: JAVA isn't effective. Even if a word processor doesn't use that much memory, and doesn't need that much CPU power, they decided against JAVA...
One more comment about discussing future versions, and JAVA. As you heard some old stuff are still incompatible with CC3, some of the other stuff can be used, but with some limitations (different approach at handling sheets), etc. and when we speak about the update process, we can see long wait periods for the City Designer 3 update. The last bit of information was released in August. With a possible date named, and some information, it was ok.
While the "possible" release date doesn't mean much, it meant: We shouldn't ask again before that possible date. Sadly that date passed without CD3 (not surprised), and we don't have any new information yet (somewhat surprised).
*looks in here, see's Simon hasn't said anything new shrugs and sighs.
Neon, fine for you to say a week or two, i'm just getting sick of 'next week' next week, next week.. We where told after gencon, yeah they found bugs.. How long does it take to fix the bugs? Apprently 20 more months? (ok not that long I'm just getting very frustrated at waiting over and over again).
Each time we get told ralf is uploading a 'new' beta version for the testers.. even if that seems stuipid and it takes hours to do (why not just upload the fixed files sounds better to me). What I find annoying some people ie those who went to GENCON get special treatment once more and already have the software, Buggy or not. I'm getting sick of Gencon INDY being special for every one.. Guess what we have Gencon Oz, CanCon etc etc we ever see any one turn up for them to offer the Australian's nice shiney new products before the rest of the world gets em NO.
yes I'm venting but what else can I do, No CD3 yet No word on it.. still the same old questions unanswered.. and I'm guessing were likely be told more news either:
a. later in the week. b. next monday c. in a month d. or just nothing at all..
It shouldn't BE hard to:
1. Keep the newsletter updated and sent out. 2. Keep the news on the forums updated 3. Keep the News List updated.
if other companies big and small can manage to post Dev Blogs and I mean we have some Big names posting dev blogs these days, airing their bugs in public, airing the fact that they are running behind or ahead etc why can't 'we get the same here? It'd solve a lot of problems that some of us are feeling which is lack of communication/change in communication.
Rob: About the special treatment: I am almost as angry as you are, and for me even the difference in price seems to be significant as well. Their early access seems very very unfair to me to say the least.
But I would add one more thing about GENCON: They can't make it ready for GENCON, and most people who spent their funds there or bought some new books (released on gencon) elsewhere can be low on money. It isn't that urgent now, they missed an important date. And this is why I am sad now. And with each and every day passed, we get closer and closer to the next important time of the year, and they might get more and more interested in waiting for just the right moment...
"The CD3 files are slowly propagating to the servers, and we are putting
finishing touches on the website. We are trying to make it easier to order
upgrades and rather than clicking a bunch of disparate links, show you which
are available. Tomorrow, Thursday or Monday are possible release days.
Details of upgrades will be posted nearer the time.
I apologize for the inaccurate information about upgrades on the website. The only inaccuracy is that we suggested their would be a pre-release order period with a discount. In fact, we will offer the same discount for a limited period after release. There will be no pre-order period, although non-download versions will be shipped out when the DVD is burnt.
Release dates are a different matter.
We studiously avoided mentioning release dates until I suggested that we would release a version at GenCon, I said:
"There is a slight chance we might have disks at GenCon." At GenCon we released a beta version and promised to ship out full versions when the product was ready.
Then I said on 31st August: "A week on Monday is a possibility for a release date, but I make no promises."
Yesterday (a day after this very soft deadline was posted) I said:
"The CD3 files are slowly propagating to the servers, and we are putting finishing touches on the website. We are trying to make it easier to order upgrades and rather than clicking a bunch of disparate links, show you which are available. Tomorrow, Thursday or Monday are possible release days.
Details of upgrades will be posted nearer the time."
I thought that this information, and the highly tentative way I expressed it was useful, but in restrospect I should probably have stuck to our previous policy of saying absolutely nothing about release dates at all. I'm interested in feedback on this issue.
I guess CD3 is a very expected product. So, when you wrote: "A week on Monday is a possibility for a release date, but I make no promises.", everybody checked the forum about any news on Monday. And everybody was sad on Tuesday there was no new news about it.
Posted By: TheElfRob: About the special treatment: I am almost as angry as you are, and for me even the difference in price seems to be significant as well. Their early access seems very very unfair to me to say the least.
But I would add one more thing about GENCON: They can't make it ready for GENCON, and most people who spent their funds there or bought some new books (released on gencon) elsewhere can be low on money. It isn't that urgent now, they missed an important date. And this is why I am sad now. And with each and every day passed, we get closer and closer to the next important time of the year, and they might get more and more interested in waiting for just the right moment...
This is a very unpleasant suggestion. We have been doing nothing but getting CD3 ready for shipment since we got back from GenCon (and with the exception of GenCon prep, most of the time before). That is full time, non-stop hard work to try to get the product out. The idea that we are easing up and "waiting for the right moment" is nonsense. However, even if it irritates people, I'm not going to be hustled into releasing a product until it's ready. We'd never delay deliberately though - except to avoid releasing on a Friday. [Disclaimer - I know that there will be post release bugs which we haven't spotted which we'll have to clear up, too - one of the reasons for the early discount upgrade.]
I picture your view of us as follows:
Simon: Ralf, let us tease them a little more. Stop working on CD3, and we shall wait for a more opportune moment to release it (strokes white cat and sucks on cigarette holder). Ralf: Your cruelty is legendary! I shall continue whittling this pongi stick until I hear otherwise.
We made it absolutely clear to the people who bought CD3 at GenCon that they were getting a beta version, and will get the full version shipped when it was ready. I would not have wanted to release that version to everyone without explaining in person that it was a beta. If you really, really want to see early versions of the software and are willing to commit time, you can apply to be a beta tester.
I'd love to come to GenCon Oz, but we simply can't afford it. The costs are enormous, and the number of attendees much lower than GenCon Indy. If we could find a local rep, we'd consider it; there are a few potential candidates.
Now, forgive me, I must get back to the work of getting CD3 released.
Speaking solely for myself I feel that I never had anything but a vague idea that something would happen. Your statements to my mind were never the set in stone kind. If some see a post that says we might be finished by next week as more than that it's thier own impression. I can see why some are antsy about the update, but we are not kids at Christmas here. It will happen when it happens and if that should be too long for some then they will no doubt take thier hard earned cash somewhere else. I know that I hate to hear a soft deadline has been pushed back by an unexpexted bug, but I would rather hear about progress and possible dates than only hear about progress. I would much prefer to know you are not just dragging your feet, and seeing how often software of any type can get set back I will continue to take any release announcement as tentative until you say CD3 shipped today.
I think the whole issue would point out a single problem: How your customers can make informed decisions. Profantasy store is more expensive than various retailers, since you want the price in pounds, and they are happy with the price in USD. Package deals, update policy, information about planned updates, etc. can reduce this difference significantly. For this, we need to make an informed choice, for this we would need dates, and terms, etc.
As you see the only people complained about the dates and the info are the people who seen previous update plans, and made their choice based on that, and worried about their purchase. The question is: Is the 1 year update policy important? To some extent yes. Some people would buy Cosmographer now, if they would know it will get updated at a price, or delay their purchase if they can't except that (maybe they already have a copy, and can get it in a bundle), so updates are an important part of the decisions of your customers.
But you can do two things to avoid the problems.
1st: Make updates part of the annual (even at slightly increased price) and you would have to buy the base products only. It would be good way to answer the question, and it would also mean: an update doesn't have to come as one piece. You can release symbols when they are ready, core for an update when that is ready, etc. it would work well, and eliminate all the problems with release dates. Since with this, annual would be a "paid update collection / service" noone would complain about putting manuals, and tutorials in it, since that is also an update to core products.
2nd: If you expect Cosmographer 3 should come in a year from now, but you don't know for sure, make sure that your clients buy Cosmographer 3 preorder with Cosmographer Pro, instead of Cosmographer Pro with 1 year worth of free updates. Your users could make informed decisions based on it :)
To me: If CD 3 would released in November (when my birthday is), I would be happy with that, if it would be released in December I would be happy with that, since I am sure if it is released later we will see less bugs and more features / symbols. But if the delays mean we can't make an informed choice at our purchases, and there is a risk involved, and hard to negotiate what happens, that makes me very unhappy.
I guess you can understand the difference.
And if you go with preorders, free updates, etc.: I would offer an "open beta" stage for people who should get the software for free anyway. NO lost money for you, and they can make a choice if they want to help you with hunting down bugs.
Also: It would be nice to have an "upgrade preorder" option available in the case of continuing the policy with free upgrades. When you sent out the coupon code for some discount it was nice, but people who have almost everything couldn't buy useful things with it. With a preorder for upgrade at that time it would be: Hey, either the coupon code expires, OR I can use it up to preorder the upgrade. It would make me less worried.
Posted By: Simon RogersI thought that this information, and the highly tentative way I expressed it was useful, but in restrospect I should probably have stuck to our previous policy of saying absolutely nothing about release dates at all. I'm interested in feedback on this issue.
Saying nothing only works well if no previous release schedule have been mentioned at all, even a tentative one. If it has, people will just point back to that and complain even more because the original time period has passed, and PF refuses to say anything more regarding the situation.
I for one prefer to have some information. I prefer that a company tells me that it might get released on date X. That way, I have a feeling of the progress, even if they don't meet that date. Silence is just frustrating.
Case is, people are going to complain if you say nothing, and if you say something, people will complain each time a potential date passes. I assume part of the reason people complain is that CD3 is a highly anticipated product in this tribe, and when people want something bad, they start complaining. In this specific case, there is also the issue about who will get free updates and who won't, as money is an important issue for a lot of people.
One more comment: Delaying the release for the right time, if you would say, you do it, would be a solid decision, it would help a bit too boost initial sales, and with more users and a bigger community everyone benefits and a few more bugs could be eliminated. It wouldn't be a "lets tease them once more" but "lets make a release date that should be final, a final update policy, try to refine it with them, and use the time to make the product even better" type decision.
As you see the whole issue revolves about 3 different points.
1st: Ability to make an informed choice based on the information you post. You see my suggestions above.
2nd: Fair treatment for the people who live outside of the USA.
3rd: If someone is willing to beta test for you, and already paid for the software let them beta test it :) Yes, they should know it is beta.
Monsen: The problems weren't about dates passed, but about no information :)
Every customer has the right of making informed choices, and how the information was handled here, and how the terms became rather flexible and unknown undermined this informed choice and undermined trust we as customers had in Profantasy.
When Vista was delayed and delayed it didn't affect us in this way, and there was no complaining about the delay. Even if it was missed several deadlines, some features had to be removed. Why? Since it didn't affect any decisions, didn't make informed choice hard. Trust wasn't broken here.
When Vista was released and Microsoft sent out Vista Business in some partnership program, we said why we see it as a problem (hard to sell / recommend Home Premium, Ultimate, etc. if you can't show Media Center). Microsoft probably heard it from quite a few people, understood the problem, and it was a good reason to send out Vista Ultimate. This means they recognized why informed decisions are important, why people want to learn about Vista before buying it, and that there all partners are important.
As you guess we also pointed out, that if we see OEM versions of Vista Home Premium coming with a laptop, and someone needs Vista Business (since wants to use it for work) then he would need 2 copies of Vista... And there are a few other scenarios where it is either Vista Ultimate or 2 copies of Vista should be bought, which makes Vista a bit more expensive than XP. I think with Windows 7, this problem won't be repeated.
Comments
And unlike Rob some would be unsure about the answer
As for a platform-independent version - the next version is very likely to be. CC3 works spendidly under emulation on a Mac, and is reported as working under emulation on Linux.
What does that mean? Are you planning on using Java?
An indie game dev I know of uses it for all his 2D games and loves it. He writes his games and they work first time without problems on any platform that runs Java. I think his company name is Puppy Games.
I used to be a programmer who liked using C++, but the problems with different platforms and operating systems killed the fun of programming and I lost interest in it. I may get back to it if I ever learn Java though.
1st: While we say Java is platform independent, I am not sure about it. Some would say, Java is a platform, and others would point out, you can't run a full JAVA VM on some platforms. And even if you use JAVA you need to make sure you stay platform independent (path names, etc)
2nd: Java would make everything slower, for simple apps it is good, but Campaign Cartographer isn't simple. As you see, it uses a lot of resources even now, and it can be slow even now. Would you want to make it slower? Java VM has limits on how much memory you use, would you want to limit how big your drawings are, how many symbols you can use, etc?
3rd: For some reasons, even OpenOffice (another sun product) comes with many .exe and .dll files, and some .py files, and yet, I don't see a lot of .jar files in it, mind if I ask why? If even SUN doesn't think that JAVA is efficient enough for their office suite, which is present on numerous platforms, we have to assume: JAVA isn't effective. Even if a word processor doesn't use that much memory, and doesn't need that much CPU power, they decided against JAVA...
While the "possible" release date doesn't mean much, it meant: We shouldn't ask again before that possible date. Sadly that date passed without CD3 (not surprised), and we don't have any new information yet (somewhat surprised).
Neon, fine for you to say a week or two, i'm just getting sick of 'next week' next week, next week.. We where told after gencon, yeah they found bugs.. How long does it take to fix the bugs? Apprently 20 more months? (ok not that long I'm just getting very frustrated at waiting over and over again).
Each time we get told ralf is uploading a 'new' beta version for the testers.. even if that seems stuipid and it takes hours to do (why not just upload the fixed files sounds better to me). What I find annoying some people ie those who went to GENCON get special treatment once more and already have the software, Buggy or not. I'm getting sick of Gencon INDY being special for every one.. Guess what we have Gencon Oz, CanCon etc etc we ever see any one turn up for them to offer the Australian's nice shiney new products before the rest of the world gets em NO.
yes I'm venting but what else can I do, No CD3 yet No word on it.. still the same old questions unanswered.. and I'm guessing were likely be told more news either:
a. later in the week.
b. next monday
c. in a month
d. or just nothing at all..
It shouldn't BE hard to:
1. Keep the newsletter updated and sent out.
2. Keep the news on the forums updated
3. Keep the News List updated.
if other companies big and small can manage to post Dev Blogs and I mean we have some Big names posting dev blogs these days, airing their bugs in public, airing the fact that they are running behind or ahead etc why can't 'we get the same here? It'd solve a lot of problems that some of us are feeling which is lack of communication/change in communication.
But I would add one more thing about GENCON: They can't make it ready for GENCON, and most people who spent their funds there or bought some new books (released on gencon) elsewhere can be low on money. It isn't that urgent now, they missed an important date. And this is why I am sad now. And with each and every day passed, we get closer and closer to the next important time of the year, and they might get more and more interested in waiting for just the right moment...
"The CD3 files are slowly propagating to the servers, and we are putting
finishing touches on the website. We are trying to make it easier to order
upgrades and rather than clicking a bunch of disparate links, show you which
are available. Tomorrow, Thursday or Monday are possible release days.
Details of upgrades will be posted nearer the time.
Simon Rogers"
Release dates are a different matter.
We studiously avoided mentioning release dates until I suggested that we would release a version at GenCon, I said:
"There is a slight chance we might have disks at GenCon."
At GenCon we released a beta version and promised to ship out full versions when the product was ready.
Then I said on 31st August:
"A week on Monday is a possibility for a release date, but I make no promises."
Yesterday (a day after this very soft deadline was posted) I said:
"The CD3 files are slowly propagating to the servers, and we are putting
finishing touches on the website. We are trying to make it easier to order
upgrades and rather than clicking a bunch of disparate links, show you which
are available. Tomorrow, Thursday or Monday are possible release days.
Details of upgrades will be posted nearer the time."
I thought that this information, and the highly tentative way I expressed it was useful, but in restrospect I should probably have stuck to our previous policy of saying absolutely nothing about release dates at all. I'm interested in feedback on this issue.
I picture your view of us as follows:
Simon: Ralf, let us tease them a little more. Stop working on CD3, and we shall wait for a more opportune moment to release it (strokes white cat and sucks on cigarette holder).
Ralf: Your cruelty is legendary! I shall continue whittling this pongi stick until I hear otherwise.
We made it absolutely clear to the people who bought CD3 at GenCon that they were getting a beta version, and will get the full version shipped when it was ready. I would not have wanted to release that version to everyone without explaining in person that it was a beta. If you really, really want to see early versions of the software and are willing to commit time, you can apply to be a beta tester.
I'd love to come to GenCon Oz, but we simply can't afford it. The costs are enormous, and the number of attendees much lower than GenCon Indy. If we could find a local rep, we'd consider it; there are a few potential candidates.
Now, forgive me, I must get back to the work of getting CD3 released.
As you see the only people complained about the dates and the info are the people who seen previous update plans, and made their choice based on that, and worried about their purchase. The question is: Is the 1 year update policy important? To some extent yes. Some people would buy Cosmographer now, if they would know it will get updated at a price, or delay their purchase if they can't except that (maybe they already have a copy, and can get it in a bundle), so updates are an important part of the decisions of your customers.
But you can do two things to avoid the problems.
1st: Make updates part of the annual (even at slightly increased price) and you would have to buy the base products only. It would be good way to answer the question, and it would also mean: an update doesn't have to come as one piece. You can release symbols when they are ready, core for an update when that is ready, etc. it would work well, and eliminate all the problems with release dates. Since with this, annual would be a "paid update collection / service" noone would complain about putting manuals, and tutorials in it, since that is also an update to core products.
2nd: If you expect Cosmographer 3 should come in a year from now, but you don't know for sure, make sure that your clients buy Cosmographer 3 preorder with Cosmographer Pro, instead of Cosmographer Pro with 1 year worth of free updates. Your users could make informed decisions based on it :)
To me: If CD 3 would released in November (when my birthday is), I would be happy with that, if it would be released in December I would be happy with that, since I am sure if it is released later we will see less bugs and more features / symbols. But if the delays mean we can't make an informed choice at our purchases, and there is a risk involved, and hard to negotiate what happens, that makes me very unhappy.
I guess you can understand the difference.
And if you go with preorders, free updates, etc.: I would offer an "open beta" stage for people who should get the software for free anyway. NO lost money for you, and they can make a choice if they want to help you with hunting down bugs.
Also: It would be nice to have an "upgrade preorder" option available in the case of continuing the policy with free upgrades. When you sent out the coupon code for some discount it was nice, but people who have almost everything couldn't buy useful things with it. With a preorder for upgrade at that time it would be: Hey, either the coupon code expires, OR I can use it up to preorder the upgrade. It would make me less worried.
I for one prefer to have some information. I prefer that a company tells me that it might get released on date X. That way, I have a feeling of the progress, even if they don't meet that date. Silence is just frustrating.
Case is, people are going to complain if you say nothing, and if you say something, people will complain each time a potential date passes. I assume part of the reason people complain is that CD3 is a highly anticipated product in this tribe, and when people want something bad, they start complaining. In this specific case, there is also the issue about who will get free updates and who won't, as money is an important issue for a lot of people.
As you see the whole issue revolves about 3 different points.
1st: Ability to make an informed choice based on the information you post. You see my suggestions above.
2nd: Fair treatment for the people who live outside of the USA.
3rd: If someone is willing to beta test for you, and already paid for the software let them beta test it :) Yes, they should know it is beta.
None of it is about "when it will be released" :)
Every customer has the right of making informed choices, and how the information was handled here, and how the terms became rather flexible and unknown undermined this informed choice and undermined trust we as customers had in Profantasy.
When Vista was delayed and delayed it didn't affect us in this way, and there was no complaining about the delay. Even if it was missed several deadlines, some features had to be removed. Why? Since it didn't affect any decisions, didn't make informed choice hard. Trust wasn't broken here.
When Vista was released and Microsoft sent out Vista Business in some partnership program, we said why we see it as a problem (hard to sell / recommend Home Premium, Ultimate, etc. if you can't show Media Center). Microsoft probably heard it from quite a few people, understood the problem, and it was a good reason to send out Vista Ultimate. This means they recognized why informed decisions are important, why people want to learn about Vista before buying it, and that there all partners are important.
As you guess we also pointed out, that if we see OEM versions of Vista Home Premium coming with a laptop, and someone needs Vista Business (since wants to use it for work) then he would need 2 copies of Vista... And there are a few other scenarios where it is either Vista Ultimate or 2 copies of Vista should be bought, which makes Vista a bit more expensive than XP. I think with Windows 7, this problem won't be repeated.