City Designer 3 / Upgrade Options Discussion

Hey, am excited over CD3 is finally ready, but where can I buy it? I would like to pay in dollars, but am from Norway so trying to get it from this profantasy is not possible...

City Designer Pro product page
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Comments

  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 81 images Cartographer
    edited March 2008
    City Designer 3 isn't ready yet. It will probably be a while yet (Profantasy haven't set a date yet). It is only available on preorder.

    You cannot buy it in dollars from the Profantasy webshop, but I believe there are other online shops that carry it (Once it has been released, that is)
  • olonaolona Newcomer
    ah, I see. I understood it as it was ready, but perhaps its only CD2 that is working with CC3?

    If we pre-order CD3 now - or buy it from an online shop - will we be able to download the CD2 version which is working with CC3?

    cheers.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 81 images Cartographer
    edited March 2008
    Yes. At least as long as you order from Profantasy's web site, you will get the CD Pro compatibility update for CC3, which will let you use CD Pro with CC3.

    I don't know what happens if you buy it anywere else, but I don't think any other sites offer a CD3 preorder anyway. I do believe you would still fall under Profantasy's upgrade policy if you buy CD Pro from anywhere else, which means you get CD3 free if released within a year of your purchase, but Simon or Ralf will be able to give you correct details on that matter.
  • olonaolona Newcomer
    Hmm..arite...

    Cause last time i bough from one of the other sites rpgnow i think it was, i still downloaded the software from Profantasy' page?
  • RalfRalf Administrator, ProFantasy 🖼️ 18 images Mapmaker
    That's right. Just register City Designer on the ProFantasy website and you can download the compatibility update so that it works in CC3. It doesn't matter where you bought it.
  • olonaolona Newcomer
    edited March 2008
    Hey, thanks

    However, will I be able to download CD3 when that is released for a reduced price or falling under your upgrade policy which monsen is reffering to?

    cheers
  • edited March 2008
    I have been looking forward to CD3 for 4 month already. When I saw a CD3 example in the April CA, I rejoiced. :-) I thought CD3 is finally about to be released in March and there will be the example for it. I'm still hoping I was right. If not so, let me know here, please. Well, I know the final touching is always the hardest part, and it is not easy to say when it will be released...
  • Lol some of us have been waiting over a year ;) so you learn to be paitent.
  • Gets your bets in now - which first, CD3 or Duke Nukem Forever?

    :)
  • Now that's just cruel (still funny, though) ;)
  • TheElfTheElf Newcomer
    Duke Nukem Forever

    When CC3 came out, and I upgraded, then considered package deals, and the update offers. And I seen if I buy everything that should be good. They had short ETAs about addons and thought about how much of the package would be updated in the year. It was important motivation to buy the whole package, even the stuff I wouldn't like otherwise. You see the deals and you see how it changed everything about the updates one can expect. In addition to delays I seen Vista problems as well. If Profantasy wants to make sure CD3 won't be adissapointment,they should pack some important features, and it means more developlement time needed, that means people will want more impressive stuff, that means they will need even more dev. time, etc.
  • Mogul76Mogul76 Traveler
    edited March 2008
    If you are using Windows VISTA, I would recommend you to install Windows XP on another partition and set up a dual boot system. A lot of software developers and hardware manufacturers, for that matter, are having problems with VISTA (I, for instance, know for a fact that not all printer vendors have yet released Windows VISTA drivers for their entire line-up). Most of us own a copy of Windows XP and PC’s nowadays have enough disk space (i.e. storage capacity) for two operating systems.

    As for City Designer 3, I can understand your resentments. I have pre-ordered CD3 myself. Others have been waiting for the release of this module for over a year. At the moment, it is still uncertain when CD3 will be released. It could be a matter of just a few weeks or several months. I personally believe that the majority of the community would be extremely pleased to receive more detailed information about the release date, but Simon has mentioned on several occasions that ProFantasy cannot provide us with an estimate yet. I don’t know the exact reasons why this isn’t possible. Perhaps an explanation is that none of the programmers can dedicate themselves to this project on a full-time basis, which is understable since hardly anybody can make a living by „just“ working in the roleplaying industry. Now, we have all seen the nice screenshots of the CD3 beta version on Simon’s website. Is there any slight possibility that you might make a preliminary version of CD3 available to all of those who have pre-ordered... even if it isn’t completely stable and all the new features have not been implemented yet? Or would this - at the current stage of the project - be an irresponsible thing to do?
  • I think they decided they were tired of publicly missing deadlines for it, and that the only way to avoid doing it again was not state a deadline. It will be done when it's done, and I'm sure it will be cool. I'm more annoyed at the lack of manual for CC3.
  • TheElfTheElf Newcomer
    Mogul76: the problem is with dual boot:

    1. some of my hardware isn't compatibile with older versions of Windows
    2. depends on the licence, you can't use OEM licence on other hardware, some licences for Microsoft partners aren't that downgrade friendly :)
  • Mogul76Mogul76 Traveler
    @TheElf:

    :-) That’s why I buy my PC’s without any preinstalled software (but I do own a legal copy of the OEM version of Windows XP Professional). What kind of hardware are you talking about? Graphic cards?

    @loydb:

    I’m actually quite pleased with the CC3 documentation. We have access to a starter manual, a detailed help file as well as the excellent annuals. If you don’t own the 2007 annual and can afford it, make sure to get it. It’s worth every penny!
  • TheElfTheElf Newcomer
    Mogul76: Tuner card is an example.
    Wifi card is another
    etc.

    And OEM version can be only legally used if you buy it with some hardware AND you use it with that hardware (in case of warranty you can use it with the replacement)

    In case of subscribtions, program benefits, etc. Microsoft Partners tend to have, it is Vista anyway :)
  • DkarrDkarr Traveler
    edited March 2008
    Let's bring the discussion back on topic. The software licensing discussion is considered off-topic to CD3.
  • What i am most anxious to get from CD3 are the new bit maps for rooftops and land covers.
  • TheElfTheElf Newcomer
    Dkarr: The problem that is "on topic" about it: With the so many delays, the problems with the software we can't know what we get when we buy profantasy software, it is mostly about broken trust. If Profantasy wants to restore most of it, they should make sure: CD3 is very very good, it should worth the delay, and the quality of software should show: Time spent on other products (like you have to pay for annual if you want a decent documentation), and wasn't the most important aspect, since CD3 should have far more than just new symbols.

    The new effects for shadows can look good and can be useful in some cases. (If you use the map outside CC3 you can apply effects on it in any graphics package you own, so in that case these effects just save some time)

    But to make a city good, we should also make it crowded, little space between buildings, without having to redesign most of them on our own, even if we use street tools. Also for larger cities, it would be good to have some "neighborhood" tools. Also if street tool would detect intersections and the buildings on other road and would adjust. (Major timesaver, easy to use tool that allows to make such maps for each adventure one runs, etc)

    If they would want to make things good: Layers / sheets based on function of building (to be searchable)
    A tool to make a floorplan from most map symbols (based on scale, looks, etc) for easier mapping (rooms placed, items aren't)

    Support for undeground settlements (cave cities near surface, dwarven cities in mines, drow cities in underdark) or special cities (elven "cities" including settlements of wood elves, tent cities of nomads, etc)
  • It would be cool if there will be a tool to make the city "live". I mean to automatically deploy symbols of people randomly in streets. Preferably somehow smart.
  • Simon RogersSimon Rogers Administrator, ProFantasy Traveler
    We are getting some valuable programming work for CD3 done this week. The main differences between CD Pro and CD3 are:
    Support for PNG fill styles
    new PNG symbols and tiles, including varicolor roofs.
    Roof shading and global shadows
    Automatic floorplan creation from selected buildings or symbols.

    There's lots of other stuff we'd like to add, but the above will definitely be included.
  • DkarrDkarr Traveler
    Posted By: TheElfWith the so many delays, the problems with the software we can't know what we get when we buy profantasy software, it is mostly about broken trust. If Profantasy wants to restore most of it, they should make sure: CD3 is very very good, it should worth the delay, and the quality of software should show
    I'm sorry I don't understand where the "broken trust" statement would even come from.

    I've been a ProFantasy customer for many years and in each iteration of their software (from CC-Dos to CC3) they have provided a product of superb quality. Not only that but the quality of their products, for the price, can't be beat. In addition, their involvement with their community is beyond what I've ever seen from any other company. I can't count the amount of questions that Simon, Linda and Ralf answer on a consistent basis on the Yahoo list. And to top it off their customer service is absolutely awesome.

    Have some of their products related to CC3 had problems with Vista? Yes. But on the other hand name a company that has not. But they have gone out of their way to fix those. And about 9 times out of 10 the problems are user related and nothing to do with the software.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have CD3 now. Yes, there have been delays but saying that they have "broken trust" with their customer base because of delays is quite a stretch. I'm willing to give PF the time they need to give us something that works, rather than something that has problems.

    To this date they have never disappointed.
  • TheElfTheElf Newcomer
    About PNG symbols and tiles, it is good with varicolor, etc. but I think the key issue here is: How these symbols work.

    If you remember how castle walls work, you can see a good way to connect many symbols next to each other. streets, etc. can work in a similar way, but as you can guess it might need a bit more flexibility (more angles supported, etc) and a tool to let these buildings follow a road. That could be basic a good improvement.
  • Mogul76Mogul76 Traveler
    edited March 2008
    @TheElf: The command SHADEPOLY would probably be an answer to some of these issues. Please also see issue 11 of the 2007 Annual (if you own it).

    @Simon: Sounds good. Keep us updated! :-)
  • TheElfTheElf Newcomer
    Dkarr: Any customer is entitled to have a chance to make an informed decision, when they speak about 1 year upgrades, post several ETAs that shows a planned rate of art upgrades, that influences how you will see value of any given software, not meeting the ETA but building different products means: the information they provided was misleading, and it is the problem.

    Of course when upgrades are released they are free to consider who had reasons to expect these upgrades based on their information and they can live up on that (but it could be unfair for others). Or they can decide: Some of the products will worth the extra wait and paying more. This is why certain features would be more than important.

    You say you use the products since CC-Dos, nice for you, but it means: you haven't faced the choice I speak about. Buy everything when CC3 is new (including some stuff already owned, so have duplicated) and get the expected upgrades and have a semi complete collection (even the stuff I don't need for most of the time) even if CC2 versions won't be used anytime soon, buying them instead of buying when upgrades released seemed like a reasonable way (considering discounts, and that even if they aren't needed having a complete set is nice). Even if it would mean a few (less important) stuff wouldn't get upgraded.

    The discount on package deal, the expected free upgrades, the expected upgrade costs, etc. were all balanced and considered. As you can see, in this case the delay ads to the cost, the problems with Vista compatibility limited usefulness. As you see this isn't just "ohh, I have to wait a bit more".

    For you: Annual means you get something new as well as some upgrades, and it can be a good value.
    For me: it means, they make symbols and art for another product while the clock was ticking and the delayed upgrades will cost me money as extra, and the annual looks limited usefulnes, and Vista compatibility isn't only about Vista if you understand me well.

    Since early versions of windows, the goal was to allow many people to develop software, including drivers, etc. as a result a lot of 3rd party code caused system crashes, forced people to use administrator accounts constantly and it led to security issues. So with Vista Microsoft seeked to change that and enforce some rules about the code, in hopes of seeing better (more stable) software, less issues, futureproof solutions. Ignoring most of the changes and reuirements when Vista RC releases were good for testing wasn't a good idea. I can accept problems with earlier software but with CC3 it is a different story. And if CC2 and CC3 would be lightning fast, would use only a few resources I would forget about it...
  • edited March 2008
    Posted By: ShadoWWWIt would be cool if there will be a tool to make the city "live". I mean to automatically deploy symbols of people randomly in streets. Preferably somehow smart.
    I don't know if your comment was meant to be dark humour but if not, you don't need CD3, you need to play Sim City for a while and get away from mapping. :)

    Pat
  • LatharionLatharion Traveler
    edited March 2008
    To "TheElf"... concerning the subscription-based Cartography Annual content, from what I understand, the work for this is either done by one person or is contracted out. Your argument that Profantasy should spend it's time working on core products instead of subscription products is quite invalid.

    For me, CD3's delay will only mean a higher quality product on release. Profantasy has a reputation for releasing high quality products, and for not meating deadlines. Simon is lothe to state a firm release date until he is quite sure the product is already done and "in the can". I am also sure that Profantasy will make right any free upgrade deals or agreements the company made to you or anyone else who upgraded. It has one of the highest reputations for customer support and satisfaction I've ever come across. If you have any questions or concerns regarding your purchase or upgrades, I highly recommend writing Profantasy directly. You are more likely to receive a reply from someone within 24 to 48 hours (at most) from any one of them than you will any other company.

    To Patoumonde...

    Either that or he needs to take a break from Sim City. It's kind of unrealistic to expect a CAD based program to create simulated movements of people in real-time. This is a mapping program!

    I did see some talk on the CC2 Tools yahoo group about the possiblity of creating a calendar and linking it to maps (which could be used for all sorts of nifty things like having sheets that track a group based on the date, etc...) Maybe this kind of thing could be used in a similar way to to what ShadoWWW requested?
  • What i think TheElf is commenting on here is originally the Dates where DD3 within 6 months, CD3 within a year or the like.. some of us got the packages etc and waited the problem being there that Profantasy has stated that you only get the free art upgrade if the product comes out within a year of you purchasing the product.

    So in the case of City Designer that means those who have brought it less then 1 year ago are fine those of us who have been waiting 1 1/2 years (think that's right now maybe longer?) have to pay out for it and i think that's what he's upset about.
  • I bought CD2 pro a second time around chrismas time because the site specifically said the it was also the preorder of CD3. Even if it's delivered 2 years from now, i should think i preordered it anyway and won't pay for it again at that time.

    Might be handy if Ralph or Simon would come clear this out. :)

    Pat
  • I feel sure they will. It is the weekend for them so we probably won't hear anything until Monday.
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