When I think of Grimdark, I tend to think of ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG. The art in the core book is black and white. So for me, I would suggest maybe a non-color option. Either a heavy ink style line art, or maybe just a grayscale.
Actually, any colour version can be readily converted to greyscale simply by applying an appropriate RGB Matrix Process Effect to the whole map, so that would be win-win!
Sure, but just because something looks good in color does not mean it will look good when converted. It depends on the base color, contrast, and then the adjustments made on the conversion.
Plus it's really easy to switch on and off the Effects in CC3+ to check, even if you're just adding one or two symbols at a time (as I did this recently for a map I was working on!), and to tweak the Effect, apply it and see how it works, and then maybe tweak it some more.
As for me, I like it. The style you are emulating, for me, is all Donaldson, Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever. The maps in the novel are rather crude, but the style you are creating evokes it perfectly (IMO). I can't wait to see more of your work.
Jim - I don't really get it either, but I work with the patterns of behaviour I find in the rows, columns and diagonals. There is a blog Remy wrote once, but I will look it up tomorrow now. It's about midnight now.
The slightly more worrying thing is that it seems to have completely slipped our collective minds that RGB Matrix Process effects will probably only work on symbols used in City templates. I seem to remember trying them without success in overland and dungeon templates.
I think this may be Remy's blog article you mentioned, Sue. It includes notes on the RGB Matrix Process, at least.
Given the blog article uses an overland example as its RGB Matrix Process test, I'm guessing it will work with that at least (can't be sure if the tree symbols have been affected or not in the blog sample images, however).
A quick test, slapping a greyscale RGB Matrix Process Effect onto one of my own overland maps (whole map setting) suggests it does indeed convert all the symbols to greyscale, while adding a few random choices of dungeon symbols to it, suitably enlarged, shows they too convert to greyscale without problems. Obviously, this is hardly definitive for all possible symbol sets, but it doesn't suggest there's a problem with what I've checked so far.
Whole map, Sue. Seemed sensible, given the "greyscale" discussion here.
I know Effects on individual Sheets can clash with one another sometimes. I managed to get a weird ghostly smearing of some symbols on one map the other week when trying something out. On reflection, I probably should have noted how I managed that, as it looked weirdly interesting on later reflection, if unhelpful for what I was actually doing at the time. Chances are I'll never manage to repeat it now, of course!
DELAYDRAWSYM can be used to turn off the double-drawing of symbols, which allows effects to modify symbols. Turning off double drawing also makes redraws a teeny bit faster, but can affect the apparent draw order of overlapping symbols.
Yes. Whole-map effects are done to the final image. That image has no transparency information, which is why effects like Edge Striping and Point Light Setup don't have an effect.
It's been a while since I updated this thread. There's not been all that much progress, but I've done some new hills and I was wondering what you all thought about them.
Are the mountains new as well, Sue? I can't seem to find this many skimming back through this topic, though I know sometimes images take longer to load here than I remember to let them...
The "furryness" around some of the more easterly hill bases looks interesting, even if I'm not sure what it is - dead trees?
Yes, I think the mountains are probably new as well. I've been working on them for a while, so they don't feel that new to me.
LOL! Yes, the furryness is dry alpine scrub. The lighter pinkish area is heath moorland, or heather moorland, depending on which way your imagination takes you.
In general, I like the hills, but I feel they might be better differentiated from the mountains if they were a little rounder on top. (I know some hills can be pretty rugged, but in a map, it does help to have a reasonably different contour to the mountains, ie not so sharp) That's my opinion anyway, but feel free to chuckle and ignore it - I am no artist.
The moorland looks like it should to my eye. Heather moors when in full bloom can be a startling site - the entire landscape just goes purple - especially when you crest a rise and it's right ahead of you, everywhere. Have to pick your time though.
I like the crisp lines on the mountains especially; just a slight hint of cartoonishness, perhaps, though that's not a bad thing here.
I tried rounder hills, but they jarred pretty badly with the extremely sharp mountains, so I made them more pointy to achieve a smoother transition. They grade to lower and smoother, so it is only the larger hills that have pointy bits.
Comments
My cell is hiccupping.
My apologies for posting in the wrong thread.
No worries, Jim :)
Stay safe bro :)
When I think of Grimdark, I tend to think of ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG. The art in the core book is black and white. So for me, I would suggest maybe a non-color option. Either a heavy ink style line art, or maybe just a grayscale.
Actually, any colour version can be readily converted to greyscale simply by applying an appropriate RGB Matrix Process Effect to the whole map, so that would be win-win!
IrfanView can do it to.
Sure, but just because something looks good in color does not mean it will look good when converted. It depends on the base color, contrast, and then the adjustments made on the conversion.
You can make things go different kinds of grey with one of those effects. It's a lot more powerful than you think ;)
Plus it's really easy to switch on and off the Effects in CC3+ to check, even if you're just adding one or two symbols at a time (as I did this recently for a map I was working on!), and to tweak the Effect, apply it and see how it works, and then maybe tweak it some more.
Heyyas, Sue
As for me, I like it. The style you are emulating, for me, is all Donaldson, Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever. The maps in the novel are rather crude, but the style you are creating evokes it perfectly (IMO). I can't wait to see more of your work.
Get well, soon, Jim
thanks
Cal
I’m no dummy, but I just don’t get the RGB Matrix. It just didn’t “click” for me.
Thank you Calibre :)
Jim - I don't really get it either, but I work with the patterns of behaviour I find in the rows, columns and diagonals. There is a blog Remy wrote once, but I will look it up tomorrow now. It's about midnight now.
The slightly more worrying thing is that it seems to have completely slipped our collective minds that RGB Matrix Process effects will probably only work on symbols used in City templates. I seem to remember trying them without success in overland and dungeon templates.
I think this may be Remy's blog article you mentioned, Sue. It includes notes on the RGB Matrix Process, at least.
Given the blog article uses an overland example as its RGB Matrix Process test, I'm guessing it will work with that at least (can't be sure if the tree symbols have been affected or not in the blog sample images, however).
A quick test, slapping a greyscale RGB Matrix Process Effect onto one of my own overland maps (whole map setting) suggests it does indeed convert all the symbols to greyscale, while adding a few random choices of dungeon symbols to it, suitably enlarged, shows they too convert to greyscale without problems. Obviously, this is hardly definitive for all possible symbol sets, but it doesn't suggest there's a problem with what I've checked so far.
Thanks for helping out, Wyvern. I still hadn't got around to it.
I'm wondering if I'm thinking of one of the other effects.
Did you use the effect on the map as a whole, or on just the symbols sheet?
Whole map, Sue. Seemed sensible, given the "greyscale" discussion here.
I know Effects on individual Sheets can clash with one another sometimes. I managed to get a weird ghostly smearing of some symbols on one map the other week when trying something out. On reflection, I probably should have noted how I managed that, as it looked weirdly interesting on later reflection, if unhelpful for what I was actually doing at the time. Chances are I'll never manage to repeat it now, of course!
I think it might be different if you only use it on a single sheet.
And I never take notes. But I do save maps in various different forms when interesting things happen.
DELAYDRAWSYM can be used to turn off the double-drawing of symbols, which allows effects to modify symbols. Turning off double drawing also makes redraws a teeny bit faster, but can affect the apparent draw order of overlapping symbols.
Thanks, Joe :)
Does that mean an effect applied to the whole map is executed last and nothing drawn after that point?
(That would explain why whole map effects work without DELAYDRAWSYM, but individual sheet effects do not)
Yes. Whole-map effects are done to the final image. That image has no transparency information, which is why effects like Edge Striping and Point Light Setup don't have an effect.
Thanks Joe :)
It's been a while since I updated this thread. There's not been all that much progress, but I've done some new hills and I was wondering what you all thought about them.
Are the mountains new as well, Sue? I can't seem to find this many skimming back through this topic, though I know sometimes images take longer to load here than I remember to let them...
The "furryness" around some of the more easterly hill bases looks interesting, even if I'm not sure what it is - dead trees?
Yes, I think the mountains are probably new as well. I've been working on them for a while, so they don't feel that new to me.
LOL! Yes, the furryness is dry alpine scrub. The lighter pinkish area is heath moorland, or heather moorland, depending on which way your imagination takes you.
In general, I like the hills, but I feel they might be better differentiated from the mountains if they were a little rounder on top. (I know some hills can be pretty rugged, but in a map, it does help to have a reasonably different contour to the mountains, ie not so sharp) That's my opinion anyway, but feel free to chuckle and ignore it - I am no artist.
I love the heath
The moorland looks like it should to my eye. Heather moors when in full bloom can be a startling site - the entire landscape just goes purple - especially when you crest a rise and it's right ahead of you, everywhere. Have to pick your time though.
I like the crisp lines on the mountains especially; just a slight hint of cartoonishness, perhaps, though that's not a bad thing here.
Thank you, both :)
I tried rounder hills, but they jarred pretty badly with the extremely sharp mountains, so I made them more pointy to achieve a smoother transition. They grade to lower and smoother, so it is only the larger hills that have pointy bits.
The style is deliberately slightly cartoonish ;)
A bit spiky for the hills seems in-keeping with the whole "Grimdark" theme.
Will there be styles/symbols for Battlemaps as well? I'm thinking pillaged villages, burnt farmland and the likes...
Not at the moment, Fersus. This is just a small overland style for now. But we will see where the wind blows us in the future :)