How to make Hex Symbols

Good day,

I'm still working on my modular hex dungeons and a thought just occurred to me that I might be able to make full scale maps by making the tiles into symbols like with Mike Schley's Overland Hex January 2018 Annual style. However I have no idea the best way to go about it. I have well over a hundred hex dungeon tiles, it is a bit of an obsession really. Making them into symbols that could be properly rotated like with the Overland Hex symbols would greatly reduce my time making random dungeons.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.
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Comments

  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 81 images Cartographer
    Making them into hex symbols should just be as easy as importing them as symbols, and then set the 'Hex Symbol' symbol option for them from the symbol manager.
  • Highland_PiperHighland_Piper Surveyor
    edited July 2020
    Monsen how do you

    *edited as I figured some of it out*

    Do to the sheet effects I have a mask around the tile. But I can not seem to create a symbol of just the area I need. It doesn't work without the mask, and with the mask it is no longer a proper hexagon.

    Importing the png of the tiles gives a white background despite them being saved with a transparency, making them rectangular.
    Loopysue
  • On a different problem I can't seem to get any snapping to work properly with the hex grid. I used to be pretty good at CC2, fairly good with CC3 but I've now tried 4 different map styles and snapping for a hex grid is never spot on.

    Ideally I'd like to have all the wall features and everything available and not just a png. Like CA61 does for the flat tiles. All the walls, floors, symbols are there to be edited if need be.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 81 images Cartographer
    For the transparency, you need to handle that in an external image editor before loading them in as symbols in CC3+. CC3+ cannot save images with transparency, there will always be a background.

    What do you mean when you say the snapping for the hex grid isn't spot on?

    Importing the tiles as symbols with editable features is also possible, but it is a bit more work. You have to take advantage of multi-sheet symbols. To do this, you need to enable the symbol options convert line style names to sheets. And then you need to assign line styles of appropriate names to all the entities. For example, to make the walls end up on the WALLS sheet, make a new line style named WALLS, and set the walls to use that style. Then you can just create them as symbols within CC3+ without rendering them as .png's.
    Do note that symbols shouldn't be nested, so you should explode all symbols on the tiles before doing this.
  • Highland_PiperHighland_Piper Surveyor
    edited July 2020
    Posted By: MonsenImporting the tiles as symbols with editable features is also possible, but it is a bit more work. You have to take advantage of multi-sheet symbols. To do this, you need to enable the symbol options convert line style names to sheets. And then you need to assign line styles of appropriate names to all the entities. For example, to make the walls end up on the WALLS sheet, make a new line style named WALLS, and set the walls to use that style. Then you can just create them as symbols within CC3+ without rendering them as .png's.
    Do note that symbols shouldn't be nested, so you should explode all symbols on the tiles before doing this.
    Is there any detailed documentation, like step by step, on how to do this? Because this is something I would really like to do but I don't understand much of what you just mentioned.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 81 images Cartographer
    Not that I know about. There is some more detail and images on page 125 of the Tome, bu tit isn't a step by step guide.
  • Well it is a start. Im guessing I will have to redraw all the tiles without the mask?
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 81 images Cartographer
    edited July 2020
    You shouldn't need to redraw them, but don't let the mask be a part of the final symbol. But remember that sheet effects generally are calculated based on the total edge of the combined entities, if the hexes line up properly, you shouldn't have edge effects between tiles anyway.

    If I were you, I would start by some really simple test cases though,
  • When creating your .png files, I'm assuming from a Ps file, have you used the polygonal lasso tool to select the outer edge of the hexes, copy, then open a new document using the 'from clipboard' option (making sure background is set to 'transparent' and then paste the hex in? That worked for me for creating some dungeon tiles without a background for rectangular and square images. I was using PS CS4.
  • 17 days later
  • Both great suggestions. I will be getting back to his project soon.
  • Highland_PiperHighland_Piper Surveyor
    edited August 2020
    I'm going to start out simple and make the geomorphs for the Annual 1 December VC Old School Dungeons. Once I get the hang of this then I will start adding more complex additions to the symbols like what Sue Daniels shows in her tutorial.

    questions

    1) is there an easy way to have it rotate by 60° by just using the arrow keys?
    2) How do you add walls to a open ended Corridor tool? It just makes one wall in the centre
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 81 images Cartographer
    1. Unfortunately not. You can get a similar behavior by pre-making the symbols in all six angles, then make each set of six parts of the same symbol collection, with the option that arrow keys select different symbols. They won't rotate, but the end effect should be the same for the user.

    2. Drawing tools are not smart enough to do things like this. They either do the outline (which is the walls in this case) all the way around (or in the case of a path instead of a polygon, a single outline centered on the outline), or not at all. To get this behavior, you need to use the DD3 corridor tool, it is made for that purpose. For a path tool, you can somewhat imitate this by making the walls the main entity, and the floor the outline. Then set the main entity to be wider than the floor. Of course, this way of doing it means the floors sheet mus be drawn on top of the walls sheet, and this approach would also cause issues for the wall shadows.
  • Highland_PiperHighland_Piper Surveyor
    edited August 2020
    So I've come up with more problems trying this.

    Doing a geomorphic dungeon in hex has a certain challenge. That is to have a corridor match flush while rotating at 160° So in the attached picture the I have my build template. It is not part of the symbols just allows me to accurately draw them. You have a hex within a hex. The smaller hexes are 3' and the large one consists of 7 hexes so is 21'. This is for printing out battle tiles which are 7 inches flat to flat on the hex. It is the largest that can be made for both US Letter and A4 paper. I also have a 4" version that I've only partly worked on.

    I'm going to attempt to explain myself but I've not been doing a very good job of it lately. My thought was to make symbols of just the floors of the geomorphs. Mostly for practice but then I want to add walls later and continue to make more complex symbols. The problem I'm having is the horizontal corridors. So the 6' corridors (colour 29 in the picture) meet flush with the edges of the hex. The horizontal corridors can not be 6' and still maintain corner to corner compatibility. They are 5.21 line width. So because they have an angled edge the sna doesn't go from the middle of the end but the part that stick out the farthest. I've tried None, Box, and Circle.

    Is there a way to make it "snap" from where the middle of the hex is? I think that would solve it but I can't figure out how to do it. At least then if it is a top horizontal corridor and the snap is offest to be in the middle of the hex it should theoretically place it properly.

    I want to shy away from just making a hex shaped symbols as I want to integrate the geomorphs with free style mapping.

    If your interested in my thoughts behind why I do it like this here are some blog posts dedicated to the hex geomorphs.



    https://gurps.dungeoncrawlers.com/tag/geomorphs/
  • Here are all the possible corridor options for a 7" hex tile (21' flat to flat).

    Single = 3' with horizontal being roughly 2.61
    Double = 6' with horizontal being 5.21
    Triple = 9' With horizontal being roughly 7.8
  • Ugh, so the last hour hasn't helped at all. Is there anyway of making an invisible hex with whatever I want on the inside so it rotates and snaps from the centre of the hex? Giving up for the day.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 81 images Cartographer
    edited August 2020
    Posted By: Highland_PiperIs there anyway of making an invisible hex with whatever I want on the inside so it rotates and snaps from the centre of the hex?
    No. CC3 needs the hex outline to properly understand how to use it as a hex.

    But if you make the symbols with a background (hex-shaped obviously), you should be able to go into the symbol manager, use change properties on that background element, and send it to a specific layer. Then, if this layer is set as hidden in the map you use the hexes in, it will become invisible.
  • Monsen,

    Thank you. I've been going about this the wrong way and it was like getting the door slammed in my face each time.
  • Another question, which would be better for the Hexagon a Path or Polygon? Not sure if having if filled will cause memory issues if there were say 200+ symbols in the map or not.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    It doesn't really matter. It will still take 6 nodes to define the shape, whether it is a line or a polygon.
  • Highland_PiperHighland_Piper Surveyor
    edited August 2020
    Posted By: LoopysueIt doesn't really matter. It will still take 6 nodes to define the shape, whether it is a line or a polygon.
    Thank you! Now to figure out some type of naming/labeling system for all these symbols.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but the "Irregular Left Double Corridor" and "Irregular Right Double Corridor" in your image above are the same shape rotated through 180 degrees, so you could do just one version called "Irregular Double Corridor"

    (Don't feel bad at not noticing that. I have autism, and patterns like that click in my brain the instant I see them - even if they are different colours)

    I would name them much as you have in the image above, and add any extra details after that main name. If you don't like long names then use obvious abbreviations for words like single, double and triple, or even just S, D and T. That should cut the length of each name down quite a lot. H and V are quite often used for horizontal and vertical as well.

    Symbols you mean to use as a collection (for example rotated versions of the same thing, or collections of similar hexagon patterns) need to all have the same name with different numbers at the end. If there are more than 9 in each collection you will need to number them 01, 02, 03, etc, so that there are the same number of digits at the end of each file name.
  • Thanks for all the help. The project is coming along nicely.
    [Deleted User]
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    Very impressive!

    I saw that over on the FB page, but I couldn't really see the detail there.
  • MonsenMonsen Administrator 🖼️ 81 images Cartographer
    Looking nice. Those colors reminds me of the old Ruins of Undermountain maps.
  • Highland_PiperHighland_Piper Surveyor
    edited August 2020
    Posted By: MonsenLooking nice. Those colors reminds me of the old Ruins of Undermountain maps.
    That was my intention. I'm running an campaign where the player characters are in prison plane of existence. So everything is just one massive super mega dungeon. The Gods and other powerful beings treat it like the UK did Australia. Send their unwanted to this dimension and forget about them. After several thousand years the descendants have carved out a life in this weird world. However mapping dungeons of this size means I'd prefer to make the overall dungeons simple like the Ruins of the Undermountain with colour coded rooms for what is important. Then if I want I can make a detailed room such as Room #1 from the above map. I'm using the Tube Map annual to do the overland as it would be insane to include every nook and cranny from point A to Point B. If there is something worth investigating I will make up a small encounter map like the one above.

    Okay for some reason I can't add the image. I get this message

    Some problems were encountered
    The file you attempted to upload (Encounter 1-1.PNG) was empty.
    You are not allowed to upload (Encounter 1-1.PNG) the requested file type:
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    How big is the file? If it is over 2MB it won't upload.
  • So example of a detailed Room Encounter but leaving the rest old school like Ruins of the Undermountain. Each hex can be printed at 1" giving a large 7" hex battle tile.
  • LoopysueLoopysue ProFantasy 🖼️ 40 images Cartographer
    That looks good :)

    Are you intending to make the hex symbols like this, or keep them as polygon shapes?
  • Posted By: LoopysueThat looks good :)

    Are you intending to make the hex symbols like this, or keep them as polygon shapes?
    Both. The good thing about the polygon shapes is I can copy paste them into other maps and then change them to the default fill.
  • 11 months later
  • So here is what I have for 6' tiles already. I'm sure I can come up with 50+ more if I really set my mind to it but these by themselves will make some very complex and organic looking dungeons using hexagon geomorphs. Currently the shapes are simple with no walls to accommodate the 'Ruins of the Undermountain' style. However once I am finally satisfied that I've covered the majority of shapes I will start adding a layer of walls to them. Eventually I will then make four sets of symbols for them 3', 6', 9', & connector symbols between the three connection widths.

    The brilliant thing about CC3+ is I can take these floor symbols put them together and either multipoly them or just put them on a temp layer and retrace them and you can have whatever fill style you want.

    There does not seem to be an end to the number of geomorphs I can make with a hex

    JimPmike robelMonsenOverCriticalHitCalibrejmabbott
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