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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2020
     
    I think this is going to look pretty amazing when its done :)
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2020 edited
     
    Thanks Sue.

    As I am sure for everybody, it gets really exciting and tense as you approach the final stages.

    First below is the completion of the last 500m contour line. It took me 45 minutes of manual tracing. I was a nervous wreck toward the end waiting for an errant right click in the wrong place or a crash as the line got longer and longer. I only made one out of place right click, early on which made a triangle in the middle of the polygon. I just continued on and deleted the point after the thing was completed.

    The next shows all the layers and you can faintly see the winding snake of the last 400m contours. (Well, maybe you can't here. They are really faint!) So I added a shot with only the 400m and on up stuff showing. A large one on the bottom center and a smaller one at mid right. It's torture. I don't know if I will work on this more today.

    I think it is coming along nicely. I have to say I love the way the contours coalesce as you get to the higher levels. This is the first time I have started with darker colors below and lighter ones as I go up. I find the effect pleasing either way, but I have to say this is really cool looking. Thanks for convincing me, Sue!
      500M level complete.JPG
      All levels thus far2.JPG
      The next beast.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2020
     
    Those contours are coming out real nice. Looking good.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2020
     
    Thanks Monsen! I have to admit, I am anxious to finish so I can turn them white with the lowest layer being some faint brown or maybe green and seeing how they look when the others are all transparent white. I would never have thought of that.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2020
     
    I'm really starting to see the shape of the land now. Great work, Mike :)
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2020 edited
     
    Thanks Sue! With a little coup 'd oel I can see it like that when I look at the map. Better yet is having fingerspitzengefuehl.

    Well, I had to push myself a little bit and decided to do the smaller 400m contour on the right center. The first time I got to within 2 inches from completing the line and moved the map to center it in the window so I could see it better and just as I took the mouse off the right arrow to move the screen to the left, I sensed a crash and sure enough, wacko! 40 minutes of work shot. Worse, when I reloaded it, it loaded the 0425 file rather than the 0427 file, so it looked at first as if I had lost two work sessions, but thankfully, the 0427 file was good and another 40 minutes worth of more or less tracing the line, I had it completed. WOOO! Just wo more looooong contours to go.

    Here's a look. First just the 400m level, the Red Line shows where I was when it crashed. The second shows all the layers two more polygons to draw. The other 400m level and the looong 300m. Maybe tomorrow, probably one tomorrow and one Wednesday.
      400m crash.JPG
      400m one to go.JPG
  1.  
    Mike... I am totaly lost at your map hahahaha. It is an incredible work and a huge one! Congrats.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2020 edited
     
    Thanks! It's 58 x 70 km, but the physical map I scanned is 60 x 72 inches, but the map inself when printed for the game will be slightly less as I don't need the whole map to portray the battlefield.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2020 edited
     
    Closing In. Here's the completed 400m sheet, then the plan of attack for the 300m sheet. This is where it will get interesting, because in some places the contour must close toward the center and in others toward the edges. Sometimes its hard to be sure which...the line will start at upper left, just to the right of the filled in section, then wind all the way down the left side, across the bottom, and up almost to the top, then cut to the left, go down, then across and up to the right, near the center, before reaching the top and over to the left.

    Then a little work on the right to fill in those gaps, and done.

    the bottom shows the state of the whole, you can see the 300m contours that have to be traced.

    Enough for the day.
      400m complete.JPG
      The Plan.JPG
      Last one.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2020
     
    You're going 'great guns', as one of my friends used to say :)
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2020 edited
     
    The screen shot from Star Trek The Original Series' Cloud Minders always fascinates me and my map sort of has the look of it.

    I also had to take a peek at how the rivers look. They look spot on. I might want to simplify them and recolor them.
      Cloud Minders.png
      Water courses.JPG
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020 edited
     
    Well, I am hitting some stumbling blocks. I was using my typical method of just manually tracing a new contour line over the top with the new line on a different sheet than the old line. Twice I got about half-way through and the program crashed (and does not provide any error message). I said, okay, time to try something new. Read the instructions and I think the way to proceed is:

    Add some lines where you find large(?) breaks between lines. I typically use "on" to place a new point hopefully "on" and old line, but it appears this doesn't actually connect the lines, but does remove any gap.
    Right click on "Fractilize" and select "Line to Path"
    Select individually lines, watch in fascination as you move along the previous drawing, as they turn purple.
    Work your way all around the lines until complete.
    Right click.
    select "Do it"

    Then, I suppose this will group combine all the lines into a path (that I suppose) is supposed to joint them all in one path. In this case the path may or may not be a polygon.

    What I got was another crash.

    I presume there is no need to connect all the segments in order.

    The picture below shows the sheet state before I start connecting the path. Actually two sheets are displayed. The lower one is the various lines and the upper one is where I have previously filled in the polygons.

    I should also note that each line currently has two sheets associated with it. One with just lines and one with the filled contours. Should I delete the old sheets?

    This is of course, the largest single line on the map.

    The second shot shows the selected line. After this I selected "Do it" and again the program crashed.

    Combine shorter lines, then combine larger ones until I finish? Saving along the way.
      Before doing line to path.JPG
      Selected Lines.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020
     
    I'm not sure from the terminology what you are actually doing, Mike, or if you succeeded or not.

    So I can understand the situation can I just confirm that you tried tracing existing line segments, but that you crashed the app before you got to the end of the task. That you then decided to change tactics and join the existing lines by adding missing segments and converting everything to paths, then combining paths? Or did you just group them? Grouping is very different from combining.

    If it's combining paths then I have to assume that you have given up tracing altogether and you intend to create the polygon by combining all the paths and then converting the one path to a polygon. Is that right?

    Did you achieve what you set out to do, or are you still having trouble?
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020
     
    I am still having problems.

    My first plan was just to manually trace the "old" line on a new sheet to create a polygon. It crashed before I completed the task. This has happened to me many times before and frequently redoing your work succeeds. I decided to try something new. (Unusual, I know).

    Then I tried to add line segments that I could tell were missing between existing segments. Then I selected the segments until all were shown in purple as shown above. At that point, I right clicked, selected "DO IT" and the program crashes.

    question: Do I need to draw line segments between unconnected segments or will the program do it by itself? I think it finds connections that are not necessarily the ones I want.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020
     
    Posted By: mike robel...Then I selected the segments until all were shown in purple as shown above. At that point, I right clicked, selected "DO IT" and the program crashes...

    Do what? What were you trying to do?

    Posted By: mike robel...question: Do I need to draw line segments between unconnected segments or will the program do it by itself? I think it finds connections that are not necessarily the ones I want.


    I don't know, Mike, because I'm still pretty confused about exactly what you are doing.

    What is your objective? Are you trying to join them all into a polygon instead of tracing them?
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020
     
    Let me try again.

    The various line segments making up this final contour line are not all connected, that is there are small and large gaps between them. I constructed line segments between disconnected line segments to elminate or close the gap. At that point it looked to me like all the gaps were filled, but perhaps there were not.

    When I had completed that, I then selected "Line to Poly" and proceeded to select all the line segments.

    When it looked like I had them all selected, I then right clicked and selected "DO IT" and the program promptly crashed.

    This dotted line represents line segments that are not connected: ---------- ---------------- -------- -------------

    This one represents the line after I connected them: -----------------------------------------------------------------
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020 edited
     
    Ok.

    Going back to the point where you have drawn the extra segments in to *visually* join them (not the same thing as actually joining them) the simplest way to achieve one whole polygon from them all is this:

    1. Check that you haven't accidentally duplicated any of the segments of line/path by picking each one individually with the Info->List tool. Duplicated segments can cause a devil of a problem. (Let me know if you have any before you go any further)

    2. Once you are certain there are no duplicates, check that all the ends are snapped to each other using the move node tool and either SNAP or ATTACH. The alignment must be totally spot on. Absolutely no errors, overlaps or crossed lines.

    3. Save the file!

    4. Right click Fractalise and pick "Line to Path" (NOT Path to Poly, but Line to Path). Don't worry about whether they are already paths or still lines. This won't harm any existing paths at all it will just leave them as they are.

    5. Select the entire contour and "do it".
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020 edited
     
    So how can I tell if I have duplicated nodes? Examining the separate grid coordinates? I am sure I do.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020
     
    When you use the Info->List tool on just one line and the blue box comes up with information about more than one line.

    I may be being overcautious here, but there does seem to have been so many operations on these lines that it is not beyond imagination that there may be duplicated sections in places. If they exist they could cause unnecessary complications.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020 edited
     
    Well, I don't think you are being overcautious. I am sure I have overlaps on some lines. This layer has 178 different lines, splines, 2D splines, or whatever.

    As I go through these things, I constantly get artifacts like you see below (the straight line emanating seemingly from nowhere). Frequently, you can click on one point or the other and it will disappear and does not affect the drawing. I suppose this is an indicator of my problem.

    Except when deliberately selecting two different lines, I have not found any single line that produces two entries in the text table. On the other hand, I know I have not clicked on every line. I have found individual lines that have wierd points and when I zoom in a large amount, I can go through and use delete node and after 2 - 8 clicks, the line "straightens out". Sorry I can't be a better describer of the problem.

    I have attached the FCW. I am NOT asking you to fix the layer for me, but maybe you will see something systemic I am doing stupid.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020
     
    I will certainly have a look at it in the morning, Mike, if you can wait that long?

    It's nearly midnight here, and I have to go and help Buzz replace the battery on my mum's car first thing - it went flat because no one was using the car, so she has no emergency transport right now if I fall ill.

    Anyway! I will have a look at it either before I go, or after I come back - certainly before dinner time.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020
     
    There's no hurry. I have plenty of other things to do for this game project. Plus, its time to eat.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2020
     
    Hi Sue,

    Here is a new file. I deleted most of the other sheets in the workbook and saved it as a new file name. CF BATTLE MAP 20200429c.FCW (attached). I manually traced the old 300m contour as a single straight polygon. It has an open gap where I did not attempt to close just above the bottom right hand corner (a 90 minute endeavor). So, if I understand things, all I should have to do is used "Edit Node" in conjunction with SNAP and/or Attach to take one of the open points and attach it to its partner, thus closing the gap. Then, I should be able to select Line to Path. Assuming success, it will become a closed poly, but not be filled in.

    Then, I can set the width to 0 and it should fill.

    Saving the file, with a new file name, just in case, then I could open my original file in a new window, then be able to copy and paste either the whole sheet or just the closed, filled POLY from the "c.FCW" file to the "a.FCW" file by right clicking on the "copy" button and selecting "Copy to Clipboard", set the origin to (0,0) switch windows, ensure the CONTOUR 300mf sheet is displayed and paste that bugger in there and be done with in.

    BFI over all!

    I studied the thread http://forum.profantasy.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=4230&page=1#Item_7 but I am wary of trying it at this point.

    Thanks for all your help!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2020
     
    Ok, well all I had to do with the second one is use change properties to zero the line width.

    I can't seem to do anything to the first one at all without it crashing.

    When an entity has a line width it will remain hollow no matter what you do.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2020
     
    I knew that, but I wanted some professional help. NOW all I have to do is move it from this map to the other map. YIKES! This will be waiting till I get back from my eye check up.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2020
     
    Before moving it across, Mike, rename the sheet in just ONE of the files, so that you don't end up with both entities on the very same sheet in the original map.

    Then when you've got it across delete the old sheet so you just have the one perfect contour.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2020
     
    Well, I had a little time on my hands. HUZZAH! Here it is in all its brownish glory. Later today I will use Sue's white transparent method (she's the one who told me about it, so she gets the credit!"

    This was not the hardest row I ever had to hoe, but it was filled with trails, tribulations, and tension.

    Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions thus far. The end might be in sight, but it could just be a train entering the tunnel.
      Huzzah.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2020
     
    Wow! It looks really impressive, Mike. And you did all of that yourself. Though you showed us the FCW I didn't really do anything to it.

    So clap yourself on the back as well :)
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2020
     
    Here's a zoomed in view of the central portion of the battlefield. I haven't applied a lighter base color for the terrain nor have I applied white for the higher level contours. I think this is looking good. It's a little weird for me because I usually have the lower levels be light colors and the upper levels are dark. I really like the way the contours interact, I find it very interesting, more so than looking at the map.

    I tuned some of the roads and made sure there were paths to all the cities/towns (not shown) and tried to resolve issues of just where a road is when it is on a hex boundary or intersection. Also made sure many, but not all parts of the forest have paths through them. One get usually get through, even without a trail, but it is slow. Sometimes you walk in front of the tank. But boy, you can someties surprise the snot out of people when you do that.

    I am going to tune the water courses next. Also have to figure out what to do with the forest. When it is turned on now it is very garish; choosing the right color and making it transparent will be key, I think..
      Central portion.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020
     
    It's starting to come together really well now.

    I look forward to seeing it with the right colour background and all the contours done the same :)
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020 edited
     
    I took the plunge and converted the contours to white 10% transparency. The background brown color is 42 on the original palette and the Forest is Green 92 with 30% Transparency.

    At a far out zoom, I think it looks okay, although to me the contours are hard to discern through the forest and if I make the forest any fainter it is hard to discern.

    When I zoom in, but not to full size, the contours are easier, but still difficult for me to discern. Perhaps a faint gray outline would be useful for them?

    Perhaps instead of white, using the faintest brown shade (47) with 10% transparency. Might be too dark which spoils the effect one gets with white.

    I dunno. My wife, who is much more artistic than I, just says "Oh nice." When I display alternatives.

    It looks a little better when I zoom in so the hexes are about 6cm tall, but the real proof is in the printing.
      Central Portion White Zoomed Out.JPG
      Central Portion White.JPG
      Central Portion White Zoomed In.JPG
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020
     
    I experimented. I think black contour outlines may be acceptable. Everything else was not much better than no outline, and too subtle for me.

    I printed the above out and it is just as hard to discern and differentiate contours from forest as it is on the screen. Admittedly, the professional printers versions are not the same as mine, but there you go.

    Fortunately, I don't need to decide today or even soon. Just before I start sending stuff to the printer.
      Central Portion White Zoomed In Black contour outlines.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020
     
    You could go a bit lighter with that background brown. Remember that the top of your range should be nearly white, and its nowhere near white, so everything is rather a lot darker than it needs to be. Perhaps hide everything except the background sheet and the contours and see how light you can get that background?
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020 edited
     
    I dunno Sue.

    in the 1st picture, I set the background to shade 47, the lightest brown in the standard pallet. It looks like a white sheet of paper. All the other contour sheets are set to white 10%

    In the next picture, the <200m contour (the bottom) is set to 47 and the other ones (200-900) are set to white 10%. It looks pretty much the same.

    In the third picture, I set the <200m contour to shade 40, the middle brown. contours are still not very apparent to me.
      Background 47.JPG
      White 47.JPG
      white 40.JPG
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020 edited
     
    Here I set it to shade 38. This makes a big difference to me, but the higher level contours are still difficult to discern. These are all different than they would be if they were printed. I went through every shade of background from 47 to 37. 38 is the one that is easiest for me, but people standing over printed maps from 2 or 3 feet away have to see the contours to properly appreciate the map. Sigh. I get where you want to go, but it just doesn't work for me. I think I need the contours surrounded by black lines. Anything else is too subtle for me. Remember, I'm partially color blind and when I had my cataracts out, my vision was not quite the same. I need rather bold colors, subtlety is somewhat beyond me, especially in color. I like the look of the map with white. I think using shade 47 @ 10% for each sheet would end up being too dark and spoil the effect.

    I have enclosed the FCW again for you to experiment with if you like. Please don't feel obligated to do so. I really appreciate all the time, effort, and advice you have provided for this project. Perhaps I need to take a rest from it and concentrate on the other aspects of the game design. You are more than generous with your time.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020
     
    How about if you set the opacity of all the contours to 15 instead of 10? That will give you a bigger difference between the individual contours - a greater contrast. You might then be able to lighten the brown a little more.

    Thanks for the file, but I can only adjust things to suit my own eyesight. It really needs to be done by you, so that you can be sure everything is clear.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020
     
    I've done a bunch of experimentation. However, it dawned on me that you used your custom "Fred" palette and I am using the standard palette. That could account for part of the difference.

    I fear trying to bring you pallete in would change other things as well.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020
     
    Try the opacity change on all the contour sheets. I think it might improve things quite a lot - but only you can tell.

    Don't worry about what palette for now. I don't think that's the issue.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020
     
    I did change them all to 15%. It pretty much looked the same to me. Maybe I will try 20%. On the other hand, I have tried 10% fill on all the contours using the lightest brown fill either.

    By the way, the highest contours (900m) are comparatively tiny when compared to the rest of the map. There are only 4 peaks with that height. The one that really matters is the Wasserkupe, which is 'famous' for being near the source of the Fulda River and the home of the glider school where the Luftwaffe trained before they were the Luftwaffe. There is also a picturesque castle ruin that we loved to go visit near there. I would mark locations of ruins on my maps as we maneuvered around teh country side and then my wife and I would go back and visit them and eat at little restaurants near them or do a picnic.

    I think black lines around them will the solution. They are gray when set to transparency, easy to see, and do not seem to overpower the map. Brown was not readily distinguishable to me. I didn't like using green as the background fill, so brown it is.

    I'm going to take a short break from the map and concentrate on calculating combat power for the units and finalizing the counters. There is still a lot of other stuff to do. SIGH.

    Our stay at home ends on Monday, but they want us to wear masks outside. Restaurants are limited to 25% capability. It doesn't bother me much one way or the other. The only stores I like to go to are book stores, hobby shops, office supply store, and the grocery store. Occasionally a hardware store. We go to one restaurant a month whether we need to or not. We love the waitress there.

    Hope you are doing well.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020
     
    I'm doing fine, Mike, thanks :)

    We mappers have the advantage, in that most of us secretly crave the excuse to sit at the desk and map.

    Take your time with the contours. Maybe do a few thumbnail exports of a tiny part of the map and print them to see if certain settings are ok or not. Don't waste ink and money by printing the whole map each time.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020
     
    I've made some test prints of the area my unit operated at "game size" (11x17 inches with 6cm hexes) no need to print the 15 sheets till I'm ready to start play testing again.

    The main things to now with the map is proof the roads then put them on one sheet to see how your glow suggestion works, check the rivers again, name things, and make the terrain key which is a separate sheet.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2020
     
    It would be interesting to see a couple of photos of those prints, but only out of curiosity. I managed to mend my printer, but only well enough to print out shopping lists for my mum's groceries. It wouldn't do justice to a map, so I'm curious about how well CC3 maps convert to the printed product.
  2.  
    My HP 7610 and Epson 75F10 series do a reasonable job for prototyping and the Epson lets me print edge to edge, which I like. They are a little "light" in appearance.

    When I send them to a professional printer they look quite good.

    I'll take some photos, but because of the size limitations of the sight, I think they won't look much different than what I post on line normally.

    Have to think about the best way to do it.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2020
     
    Oh no!

    Please don't waste good time trying to sort out a few photos if it's awkward like that!

    I didn't mean to divert you from your main task :)
  3.  
    It's not a diversion. I need a break from the map anyway. I just got a new game.
      storming the gap.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2020
     
    Only one?

    I've bought about 10 films since lockdown began.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2020 edited
     
    I bought two last month. And 7 books on the Little Bighorn (postponed till 2020 - wah), two on strategy, one of the 11th Cavalry Regiment in Vietnam, one by one my favorite futures authors, a sci fi book completing a trilogy, a book on quantum physics (for the layman), and maybe two more.

    I helped out the author of the first one here, and ordered two more games of his last month too. Not sure when they will get here.

    My game is for the 11th ACR and V Corps, OBJ Nuremberg is for VII Corps.

    Its hard to study history, design games, play games, and build models. Even when quarantined.
      Battle for the Center.jpg
      OBJ Nuremburg.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2020
     
    I guess I've got some catching up to do! LOL!
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2020 edited
     
    Sue, as requested, here are some photos of my maps as printed. In some cases, they include a map from my printer and a map from the printing service I use.

    First below is Rannagun Germany. The top map is the printer's map and the bottom one is my map.

    The second is near the Inner German Border, Top is printer's, bottom is mine.

    Third are two of maps I printed. The one in the background is the 1:100000 scale version I had done previously with no counters. This smaller one used your white contours, darker on the bottom.

    Fourth compares my earlier test map with darker brown contours on the bottom, lighter on top, with your method of darker on bottom, lighter on top.

    The fifth map shows the typical size of my larger game maps. The table is 5 feet on a side.

    As can be seen, the appearance from a "professional" printer is much different than mine.
      IMG_0095[1].JPG
      IMG_0096[1].JPG
      IMG_0097[1].JPG
      IMG_0098[1].JPG
      IMG_0099[1].JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2020 edited
     
    My goodness! I think there is a huge difference between the colour profiles of your printer and the probably CMYK profile the printer is using.

    It is going to be very difficult judging just which shade of brown is the right one.

    Thank you very much indeed for taking the time and trouble to illustrate just what you are facing.