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    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 6th 2020 edited
     
    I didn't see anyway to do that. Nor does it appear it can be scaled like a symbol. Having said that, if I feel like placing them individually (brute force and ignorance has a quality all its own) I can use this symbol set and size the thing to the appropriate shape and size, even when it is shrunk down to actual size. And for that matter, the symbol set Modern/Overland/Overland.fsc has a hedge that works.

    I suppose I could do it with Symbols in Area, (edit) but I find it gives unpredictable spacing and arrangements when I try and use it.
      Image3.jpg
      Image4.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2020
     
    Whereabouts is the drawing tool for the orchards you shoed several posts back. I would like to give it a go, just for my own arcane, secret, nefarious and utterly mischievous purposes
  1.  
    SS3 Pro Overland found in C:\ProgramData\Profantasy\CC3Plus\Symbols\Modern\Overland
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2020
     
    Thanks
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2020
     
    The problem turns out to be simple to solve. The fill is a symbol fill. Go into that via Fll Style at the top right of your screen, choose Symbol Fills, and on the Fill Style Name bar, choose Orchards. If you want to double the size of the symbols (without enlarging the polygon) just double the value for X spacing, Y spacing, X Scale and Y scale. Click OK and you will see the symbols double in size. You can increase or reduce the symbols to any size you wish, but keep the proportions the same.
  2.  
    Thanks Quenton. I tried that but must have done something in the wrong sequence because it didn't work. It took me about an hour to figure it out. I'm a tanker, not an aviator. I get there faster than infantry, but not as fast as attack helicopters.
  3.  
    Well, that didn't work how I thought it would, but I eventually mostly got the effect I wanted. To do this I had to draw a light green polygon, the manually trace the outline with the Orchard Symbol Fill. I tried to use the "Trace" command, but I obviously need to review that more better. When I do the Symbol Fill without the underlying polygon, the symbols go in but there is no background. Looking at the symbol catalog, I keep thinking there should be a way to get a light green fill with a dark green symbol, but maybe not?
      Orchard Symbol Fill.JPG
    • CommentAuthorthehawk
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2020
     
    For my graveyards I used something called Roof Tile Symbol / Roof Tile Fill.
      tombstones2.png
  4.  
    Thats cool. I tend to use the map symbols if i can.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2020
     
    That's certainly a very original use of a roof fill :)
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2020 edited
     
    A small update. Most all the roads are in: Autobahn, Heavy Duty, Medium Duty, Light Duty, Improved so a unit can move through many, perhaps most, of the hexes on roads. Not all of them however. I've determined where I am going to place the Orchards. There's some more work to be done on the upper left which has a somewhat different map style (since it is from the 70's vs the 2020's). I'm not using the cool fill style I talked about above. Will evaluate when I am finished.

    I'm trying to prepare myself to do contour lines. 50m intervals ranging from from 50 - 1000m. It will be tedious, slow, and boring, but necessary. I am thinking about not shading them, but making each one a different color and maybe change width at some elevations.

    Then will come purging of roads and cities that aren't going to be significant in the game as well as adjusting the paths of rivers and roads to avoid question about what hex a road is in. Oh, and I need to add the railroad network.
      CF top.JPG
  5.  
    bottom section
      CF Bottom.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2020
     
    It looks really complicated!

    I thought military vehicles were designed to be off road as well as on road?

    In fact I distinctly remember having a picnic totally ruined by a convoy of armoured vehicles once even though we were more than a mile outside the official practice zone! :P
  6.  
    Well. Yes. But they can go faster on the roads. Closely space trees are not easy to get through. Trying to knock them down is hazardous, the root ball can flip a tank over as it comes up. If they are closer than about 6 feet or bigger than 6 (hardwood) or 18 (pine) inches. Forget about. Steep slopes not so good. Lots of mud and steep slope. Bad. Ice. Worse. Artillery blows down the trees. Infantry likes woods. Infantry: Don't go into woods or town without it. Bad fields of fire. No long range fields of fire.

    Modern tanks can go pretty fast cross country but the pigs in the late 70's to mid 80's were 10 - 20 kph off road at best. We would usually road mark at about 20 kph, even on the Autobahn. Slower if you are getting shot at. Perhaps 3-5 km/hr.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2020
     
    Maybe I should get Buzz (my downstairs neighbour, and an engineer at the Bovington Tank Museum in Dorset) to take me for a ride one day to get a better understanding of the machines involved.
  7.  
    Oh. Wow. the BOVINGTON TANK MUSEUM! WOWSERS!
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      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2020
     
    That sounds like something you really should do. Perhaps after this social distancing is in our past.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2020
     
    Really? I didn't know it was so famous!

    Its about 15 miles away from where I live, and I've been there lots of times. Admittedly, they do have some of the oldest working tanks in the world. I think there's one there that they bring out on open day to trundle around the play area that was built in 1916.

    I'll ask Buzz next time I see him. Might have to wait a bit, though. We seem to both be pretty good at this staying indoors business!
  8.  
    Being inside a tank with the crew is probably NOT the definition of Social Distancing...
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2020
     
    LOL! no.

    He's being paid to stay home right now. I think it's slowly doing his head in, but he's being really good to me - as quiet as a mouse.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeApr 9th 2020
     
    There are several British museums on youtube.

    Also some interesting channels: Mark Felton, ships. Military History Illustrated, tanks, armoured cars, Drachinifel, ships. Military History is by an Austrian, he also translates on his channel German and equipment manuals with text in both German and English. And he shows book titles. The other two are British I believe.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 10th 2020
     
    After about 2 hours, this is where the 300m contour line are at. Also visible, for my orientation is a 400m contour line. The shot shows the map area where there is much to be done. I fear I am facing 10s of kilometers of lines to draw. Each 100m line will be on its own sheet. The bright colors are for me to be able to find where I am at because sometimes I switch elevations when I can't find an obvious continuation of a given elevation. I think the lowest contour line will be 200m and it may be pretty easier to get done. The highest is at 900 or 1000m and those too will probably be quickly accomplished. There's a crossover point when the lines start to cover a smaller area and progress increases. Not soon though.

    '
      300m contour.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 10th 2020
     
    Unbelievably detailed! Does it really need to be that detailed?

    I'm thinking about the number of nodes its going to cost you.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 10th 2020
     
    I actually skip a lot of nodes. But the audience is incredibly detail oriented. I was thinking about doing contours every 50 meters but I am not going to do that.

    Except for those lines that I know are closed contours, everything is going to be straight polygons and they will not be shaded. I have never had to try simplify, but I might give it a go after I finalize roads, rivers and before I do to many contour lines. Most lines are not single paths either.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 10th 2020
     
    Simplify is a good plan. You can set it to a low number and see very little difference between the before and after shots, and it will remove duplicated nodes so you know you have max detail for min node count.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2020 edited
     
    Day 2 (I think) of mapping contours. There is a real thrill you get when you finish following a contour through many twists and turns and either come back to your starting point or reach a place where the printed elevation is the same elevation you started on, like 400. Sometimes when I lose the contour, I go back to where I started it and go the other direction. Sometimes I just go someplace else for a while. The ones above and below it will help you find it. And I might skip around to see where the highest elevations are (in this case yellow (900m), but a bit hard to see) and the lowest (200m). Th black box is where I have a gap in map coverage, but it is where the title will go.

    @Sue, at the display scale here, it looks like I am following every nook and cranny (and sometimes I want to) but in places there are relatively long places where it doesn't do that, but its kinda hard to see.
      Contours Day 2.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2020
     
    It does look very wiggly, certainly! LOL!

    How many contours are you going to do?
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2020 edited
     
    Contours will be from 200m to 900m at 100m intervals. If I get ambitious, I might do 50m intervals, but I'm not sure I want that level of detail because I am trying to knock people out of their comfort zone a little bit with the 3km hexes and assuming that the units, regardless of where they are placed in the hex, have occupied the best available ground to do what they need to do. But that is what playtesting is for. The most contour levels I have had on a map thus far is 16, again at 100m intervals. For a smaller geographical area and smaller units (platoons/sections instead of company/battalion) I'd do 10 or 20m intervals.

    Here's a close up view with the hexes turned on at pretty close to actual size (each hex is 3km top to bottom and about 6cm). Elevation here is from 300-700m. The second shot has the vegetation turned on. The final game will have the background be either a faint green or maybe light brown or fields (if there is a fill that is not too clunky and I don't have to do them individually).
      Close up.JPG
      Close up with forest.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2020
     
    I'd stick with the interval you've got right now and see how it looks. That way, you don't waste any time by drawing extra contours all for nothing if it looks just fine with the 100 m interval.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2020
     
    I'll finish the 100m intervals and then get some playtesting done. Greater detail does not always equal greater fidelity or fit the needs. The US player is the 11th ACR Regimental Commander, he gives orders to battalions (squadrons) and monitors the execution of companies/troops/batteries. (In the US squadrons are British tank/cavalry Companies and platoons are British Tank/cavalry Platoons). US Regiments are brigade in size, but sometimes in the British Army are battalions. The Soviet player is the 8th Guards Army Commander, controlling divisions and monitoring Regiments/Brigades, but in this case for some play balance, he will go down to the battalion/separate company level. As a company commander I was very concerned about the terrain at the 10 or 20m interval. As a division staff officer I was not so concerned with it, which is why I am using the 100m interval as a starting place.
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2020
     
    There's certainly a pleasure and satisfaction to contour tracing like this, which can become quite hypnotic. I speak as someone who used MS Publisher to create such maps for years before discovering CC3, so everything like this then was drawn using polygons you could colour and edge as you pleased, and where every node (visible automatically all the time) could be more or less infinitely adjusted to suit. I do miss that nodal visibility in CC3+, where it's often so hit and miss as to whether you can even guess where the node is - yes, I know there's something fancy you can do to get them to show, but I can never remember what that is...

    Mind you there's also the appalling swearing when you find you've accidentally mis-traced a contour so it now doesn't match up with where it started, which I see Mike has thoughtfully chosen to gloss over here ;)

    [Or maybe that's just me?]
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2020
     
    LOL! Wyvern!

    You swearing? Never!

    You can reveal the nodes by hitting CTRL+F. Same for switching them off. This only really works for smooth lines, though.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2020
     
    Wyvern that's because it's too frustrating to talk about. What's really bad is if you are assuming success and doing a filled polygon that's stretched all over the map, get back to the start point, right click to finish and watch the fill go out toward the map edge instead of in toward the polygon center.

    For various reasons I don't use the contours provided in a map because there are not enough of them, I find it difficult to change the color, but I like the idea of being able to backspace.

    I know I can create my own drawing tools and or modify the tools but it orient work well for me. So I rely on brute force and ignorance.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2020 edited
     
    Day 3 of N devoted to contours. Some progress as can be seen. Difficulties arise when the contour line you are following disappears into a sheaf of them. Still, moving along. The dark blue is the 300m line, yellow the 900m line. The others are mostly not in any order, except light blue is the 400m line and Green is the 200m line. Maybe I should normalize them sheet be sheet so they go up from color 1 (black) at the upper left of the color palette. It would be easier, but is somewhat against the path of Brute Force and Ignorance.
      Contours Day 3.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2020
     
    Whatever helps you keep going, Mike :)
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2020
     
    RIght now Bourbon neat is keeping me going and preparing for an internet session of Terraforming Mars.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2020
     
    Well, with me its hot chocolate.

    Happy Easter!
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2020
     
    Sue and Mike: :D

    Thanks for the CTRL+F pointer Sue. Smooth lines are more problematic, but often I run into problems where one entity overlaps another, and I'm trying to shift a node I can't see to get it to line up with the edge of the entity I can (or vice-versa if by chance I've managed to click on the node). That and the irritation of the "doesn't automatically redraw" aspect when you're trying to move or delete the same nodes on an entity that has both a solid polygon shape and a hollow outline one...

    Mike: Yep, high vertical cliffs are a nightmare when contour tracing, especially when you can't work out which contour is which at the other side of the cliff. And the filled polygon thing! My worst experience happened early on with CC3. I got about 3/4 round a very complex contour line after about 25 minutes, all going well, needed to zoom out slightly, the Autosave pop-up came up, I clicked "Save", and the polygon closed itself! At least MS Publisher lets you save any time you want without doing something this catastrophic!
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2020
     
    Still Plugging Along. starting to look like a topographic map, except for the garish colors. Some areas look too blank, generally below 300m. (Green is 200m represented only by two realitiely small lines on the northern part of the map. Either I am missing them or I need a 250m contour line.
      Contours Day 4.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2020
     
    There might be a relatively flat area there. Adding contours at irregular altitudes will only confuse things.

    So maybe complete the ones you have and then look at it again?
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2020
     
    The center north area bugs the most. It is not flat by any means, but it is in the river valley and with 100m contour lines it looks like a parking lot. It may have made more sense to start the contours at 250 meters, maybe 150, but the lowest I found was 170. I am sure I have not drawn every contour line, though. When I lose them, I go off somewhere else and then come back to them. At any rate, finish the 100m intervals and reevaluate.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 14th 2020
     
    Progress on Day 5 of the contour drawing. Maybe 2 more days, probably 3. Then checking, and converting to Brown, layer by layer.

    Turned the hexes on for this one.
      Contours Day 5.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 14th 2020
     
    It looks like its already finished!
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 14th 2020 edited
     
    LOL. Thanks. If you want to accept weird contour line colors instead of just brown ones.

    Having said that, here are the great imponderables about contour lines and wargaming.

    Go from light colors (low) to dark colors (high) (First pic)
    Go from dark colors (low) to light colors (high) (Second Pic)
    Change the width from thick (low) to thin (high) using the same color throughout (Third Pic)
    Change the width from low to high with one of the color change schemes

    The lightest color is 47 and the darkest color is 32. (almost everything on the left side of the color palette looks black to me)
    The line thickness varies from 0.019 to 0.00 using color 41.

    What bothers me a lot is when I have more than 16 contours I need to show.

    Going from dark brown (at the highest) to dark gray and then to light gray or white would give me a lot of range. Obviously for a military style map, many different colors are not really appropriate.

    Comments? Other solutions? Suggestions?
      Light to Dark.JPG
      Dark to Light.JPG
      Thick to Thin.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2020
     
    The conventional way of doing it in maps of the real world is to have a bold line every 5th contour and a really bold line every 10th contour. Usually this results in bold lines at the 500 and 1000 levels throughout. But this requires that you label the contours, and I think you rejected that idea before.
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2020
     
    Understand. On the maps I am using the contour interval is 10 meters with an Index Contour every 50 meters. Maps from different German states I am currently using amazingly have contour lines drawn with different widths, although each are labeled, but not consistently. The different line widths make it difficult to follow a given contour.

    Normally wargames just have a terrain effects chart which shows the key to elevation in terms of color. Many, but not all, fill in the color so it is more obvious and I frequently do this.

    I place a contour every 100 meters, so in this case there are only contours from 200 to 900m.

    I haven't yet ruled out filling in the contours, but that still leaves me with wondering what order is better (dark to light or light to dark) but does away with worrying about line width.

    I have placed labels on some maps, but is somewhat difficult although I never tried using Text Along a Curve, though now that I have used the Symbol fills, that might be useful.
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2020
     
    Mapped contour fill colours tend to run from greens through yellows and browns to purples, grey and white, lowest to highest. Sometimes several shades of each can be used, dependent on the number of contour intervals, though personally, I find this can be confusing sometimes where the colour difference between different shades isn't great enough. I realise this may be of limited help for you though, Mike.

    If you're going with lines instead of fills, I'd opt for a single colour, because frankly, with the samples you showed, I'm not seeing anything much beyond that some shades are paler than others; the colour difference is almost nonexistent (I have so-called "normal" colour vision). I may be atypical in other respects though, as I tend to "see" landforms from contour maps quite readily anyway, which I know some folks find much more difficult. Sometimes I also see them inverted, but usually river lines will follow valley bottoms, not mountain top ridges!

    I think you need to determine what's really important in game terms for what you're trying to show here. Is every 100 m contour line essential to the game? Could you skip to every 200 or 300 m instead with any actual loss to the game mechanics? Is the density of contour lines going to obscure more important aspects which are key to the game? Will they simply confuse players, or do players need to be able to see every contour line?

    Board wargame maps always tend to be abstracted to a greater or lesser extent. That needn't detract from their visual appeal of course, indeed ideally, it shouldn't. However, there is a balance between visual appeal and what's needed for the game, and the two don't necessarily match perfectly with real-world map detail.

    That's muddied the waters further for you!
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2020 edited
     
    Thanks Wyvern.

    Landforms pretty much leap off the map for me as well. I think it is due to my aerial photograph reading classes where I learned to see 3D without the Stereoscopes! However, my color vision is not normal.

    I agree the line shading does not vary very much from line to line. Since I only have 8 or 9 contours, I'd use the middle value which show better variation. I have to say though, when I fill the contours, I get some very pleasing effects.

    A military game called Land Power uses 1:100000 maps, 10km hexes, and the pieces are all battalions. They don't worry about line of sight at all. This works for them because the students are not wargamers for the most part, the game is adjudicated by umpires, and the focus is on the division staff or higher. They just overprinted the military map with a hex grid.

    If you remember, I started this game using a 1:100000 map and I initially used 1500 meter hexes without contours. I decided the 1500 meter hex didn't really model the capability of the Armored Cavalry Troop to control 3000 meters of terrain with fire nor did it adequately permit the punch of a Soviet Regiment conducting the Division main attack inside a 3 or 4 km area, so I went to 3km hexes. And it required a lot of zone of control rules.

    Some testing convinced me I needed contours, but the resolution was too poor in may areas for me to discern many of the contour lines, hence the move to a 1:50000 map and contours.

    I blew up a section of the map to the size it will be when I print it, the hexes are 6cm wide. You can see in the view, the contours don't seem to have effect of LOS as much as the forest. This is the area my squadron defended. My battle position is in hex 0512 in the West corner where the small section of woods is. The portrayal of what I could shoot is pretty decent.

    Part of me wants to go back to no contours because I want to break the gamers, in this game, of worrying about where individual vehicles are; they are to imagine the commanders have placed their units on the best terrain. The only LOS consideration would be if both guys are "inside" the woods, they they have to be in the same hex to shoot at each other. Units in different hexes can shoot as long as the hex edge between them is not blocked. (Again, saying they are on the best ground).

    Clearly I am having issues breaking out of my own comfort zone. :)
      Hunfeld bowl.JPG
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2020
     
    End of Day 6. I think it is pretty complete. Still a couple of check passes to do, then switch the colors to brown. Enough of terraforming Earth, time to Terraform MARS!
      Contours Day 6.JPG
    • CommentAuthormike robel
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2020
     
    Contours Day 7. While this still needs further fine tuning, the mapping is basically done. Basically I did 2 horizontal sweeps of the map in rows three or four grid squares high from left to right, got to the end, went up 3 hexes and went to the other side, making corrections along the way as needed. Sometimes there would be big gaps, so I would have to follow the contour. Then I would start over. When I got to the bottom, I reversed course and went back to the top. Amazing what considering a change of direction reveals. Then the same thing vertically.

    Then displayed one sheet at a time, starting from 200m and worked my way and found more gaps in my work. This of course led to more corrections. Sometimes I had to bring the BMP back in and display the adjacent sheets in order to figure out the individual contour trace. Also discovered contours on the wrong sheet of course, and on the map BMP. So that's done.

    Tomorrow switch the colors to brown.

    You will probably see some difference in today's map from yesterdays, but not much is really noticeable. Nice to complete this part. I thought it would take at least a week more.
      Contours Day 7.JPG