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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019 edited
     
    I am thoroughly muddled up with drawing tool macros, but willing to keep trying.

    My current project is creating the Ferraris style annual issue. The fills and symbols I know how to do, and they're coming on fine, but what I can't figure out is how to make a few rather specific drawing tools - if they are even possible. Here is a list of what I would like them to do, under an image of the example map so far (to give an idea of how they would be applied).

    Annual Ferraris Style3.JPG

    - Draw a polygon with a bitmap fill that is aligned to the first side. This is to make drawing the stripy fields a lot easier.

    - Automatically draw a filled circle on a different sheet to the line that is exactly the same diameter as the line width. This is to join different types of road that are on different sheets with both sheets having glow effects that will show as lines across roads at the point where they join. An example of what I mean by the circle is the way the roads are drawn by the random city generator.

    - Automatically select random bushes or trees and do the symbols along line job on the line the user is drawing right at that moment with the drawing tool. This would help greatly with drawing the lines of trees and bushes. Maybe this needs to be some kind of connecting symbol instead, but I don't know how to do it so that the connecting symbols stay the right way up no matter what direction the line goes in - trees with trunks to the ground etc. When I draw the trees properly so that they have tiny little shadow lines it will also be important that they are sorted once drawn in a way similar to the sort symbols in map tool does it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    The second one is simple - just put the 'outline' on 1 sheet/layer, and the other component on the other sheet/layer. Look at how walls work in most cases.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    The second one is about the problem illustrated below. There are two road types in the Ferraris style - one has shading down one side only, and the other doesn't. Both have the same outline. To economise on nodes at every turn I have generated the outline using a glow effect on both sheets, and added a shadow effect to the sheet with the roads that need the shading on them. This all works well until the two different kinds of road meet up in a junction where the glow effecting the outline on the uppermost road cuts across the end of the underlying one because its on a different sheet.

    There are several solutions to this, but the one I'm looking at first is one that I know must be possible because its how the roads are drawn by the random city generator - to put a circle of the same fill on top of them both on a sheet with no effects whatsoever. It hides the join. This is what I have done by hand on the left, leaving the one on the right as it appears without the circle.

    What I am thinking of is a drawing tool that will do this automatically.
      Road junction.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019 edited
     
    A different way of dealing with the same problem is to put both types of road on the same sheet, but make sure that the roads drawn by the tool that draws the roads with the shading also creates a copy of the drawn line on a different sheet in a different fill to simulate the shadow - a line of the same thickness done in one of the transparent Solid fills. It would also have to move the line a set number of units in a standard direction - a displacement. Either way, something has to be drawn on a different sheet that is 'other' than what the user has just drawn on the map. One involves drawing a specific circle, the other involves replicating the road changing its properties and moving it to one side.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    Its not the manual task, but the macro that automates that job when you are using the drawing tool to draw the roads. I can't figure it out.

    Doing the whole thing by hand is fine (I did the example map entirely by hand because I couldn't figure out the drawing tool macros), but it is definitely a little clunky.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    Remy to the Rescue.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019 edited
     
    Maybe :)

    I don't even know if what I want is possible. Been trying for nearly a week now between textures, and I still can't figure out the first one. I think I have a basic concept problem. If I could work out how to think about macros maybe I would do a bit better.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    These are tricky. I'll need to think a bit about it.
    I don't think the first one is doable using a macro until the next CC3+ update.

    For the second one, drawing a circle the same width as the road is tricky if the road can have any width, but if you have drawing tools with fixed widths (which city road drawings tools usually are anyway), it should be doable. Likewise, making a copy of the road, move it a few units, and change fill is also doable in a macro, what I worry about here is getting the direction right since that seems to depend on the direction of the road.

    For the third one, it can be mostly automated with Symbols Along (will probably need a dedicated symbol catalog too, bu that is easy enough), but the ESCM command don't allow the line to be selected by the macro, so the user would have to click on it after drawing it.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    :D

    Thanks Remy!

    Ah, well that might be some of why I can't get the first one to work.

    On the second one the roads will be set widths in the drawing tools (different widths for different kinds of road), and the existing shadow is a shadow effect on that Particular sheet. The original map is inconsistent because the shading was never intended to be a shadow, but just a second line that was one side or other of the road. Shadow or shifted duplicate is as close as we can come I guess. If this is just too messy and awkward I have considered putting all the roads on the same sheet with the shadow and making the only difference be the width of the road. That will be close enough to the original for most people. I will probably upset the purists, though!

    I had really big doubts about whether the third one could be done, or it would probably have been done before now. Would users get used to the idea of having to click it again after drawing it? I know I would, but that's just me.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    This is just a by the way question, but if I am creating line styles and drawing tools in the FCT and the "Annual Ferraris Style" folder I set up according to the instructions in Ralf's blogs about making your own style, do I have to be worried about the line style not being saved with the template?

    I'm so sorry - all this technical stuff fascinates me, even though I'm absolutely crap at understanding it all.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    Posted By: Loopysuedo I have to be worried about the line style not being saved with the template?
    Line styles should be saved in the template, so if it doesn't save with the template there is something strange afoot.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    I can't tell yet. I'm actually making the map in the FCT file. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

    I made the line style in the FCT while I was making the map, so I assume that when I've finished and duplicate the FCT and take all the drawn bits out of it except the frame and the screen the line style will stay with the template.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    Yes, they will.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    Excellent :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2019
     
    I've decided that the second issue with the roads joining can be solved more simply. There is a dropout problem with the road texture because its the same texture as the background and a glow has been used on the roads to give them the outline, so I had to add a backing sheet to all the roads regardless of type to separate them from the background.

    Now, if I put all the roads on one sheet but make separate drawing tools for each of the two types of road, I can have each drawing tool add the necessary lines to one of two backing sheets - only one of which will cast a shadow.

    That means there are no strange circles, and I can clone one of the wall tools to make both the new road tools.

    Roads will only be a pain for the user if the user decides to adjust it's shape.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2019 edited
     
    Hi! I saw this conundrum and Sue's done such an amazing job with this style, I'd hate this to be a... roadblock. So, I'm popping on real quick with a suggestion.  :D

    There's an easy — but unintuitive — solution to the road problem, no macros needed. Don't use outlines (or glows); use two entities in the drawing tool settings. There are similar roads in CA20 Overland Black & White issue of Volume 2 (2008) of the Cartographer's Annual.

    The "outline" is actually a thicker, darker line on a sheet below the lighter, thinner line (e.g., a Roads Outline sheet and a Roads sheet). The darker "outlines" are always below the lighter "roads" and so when two roads cross, the "outlines" cross below where the two "roads" cross. There is no outline to cross over the first road and thus the intersections are clean. In CA20, the lighter road is set up using the Outline properties and the darker "outline" is set up using the main Properties. I'm not sure how important that is since they go on different sheets, but that's how it's set up in CA20. Regardless, I believe this is Ralf's genius idea (he'll correct me if I'm wrong) and it works beautifully.

    As for the two road types (if I understand the issue there), you can make two tools that use different outline sheets, one with a shadow effect and one without (e.g., Roads Outline, Shadow and Roads Outline). I think that would work.

    Here are the settings for a Major Road in the CA20 annual. They probably need to be tweaked since I'm sure the scales are very different but this should put you on the right... track. *rimshot*  ;)

    (If desired, click each image for a full-size version)


    This trick also works if you make a tool for a market square (or circle or poly or whatever shape), and works nicely for rivers and lakes, too. These also use the "two-entities & two-sheets" trick but, for the poly tools (e.g. market square), the settings are a little different. The "outline" width is a fraction of the map border just like the road outline, but the "market square" itself has a fixed width of 0.00 (so it's a filled poly).
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2019
     
    Fantastic!

    And with those lovely illustrations I can't really go in the wrong direction.

    Thank you very much, Dogtag

    It's great seeing you around the place again :D
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2019
     
    Thanks to your guidance, Dogtag, I've managed to sort out the roads onto 3 sheets, though I left the 'outline' as a glow on the ROADS sheet, since it disagreed with the shadow on one of the two ROAD BASE sheets. Both BASE sheets separate the roads from the background and have to be there anyway.
      aa2.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2019
     
    So...

    I'm looking at the last one now. I would like to make the hedgerows relatively automatic to draw using a drawing tool.

    Close examination of the original map has revealed that there is a kind of green line underneath the bushes in a hedgerow, so I've started a tool that draws a thick green line on an appropriate sheet, but I can't seem to get it to ask me to click a line or enter anything to put the bushes along it. This is what I've got so far. Please don't laugh. My brain doesn't function very well where macros are concerned.

    SELSAVE
    SELBYP
    ESCM xyPath
    SELREST


    I know! I know! It's pathetic :(
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2019
     
    It's all Chinese to me...
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2019
     
    ...or double dutch
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019
     
    Well, the top 2 lines and the bottom one are usually always there with a drawing tool macro because they save and restore the current settings, like the line width, colour and texture. It's so you don't have to manually reset everything every time you use a drawing tool.

    So the only one I picked from the list of macros that comes with the Tome is the ESCM command. Unfortunately that one doesn't work right now in this context.

    So what I've done is make a drawing tool to draw the green line background and called it hedgerow background. It's not too difficult for people to then use the symbols along tool to automatically add the hedgerow on top of it.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019 edited
     
    So the line is drawn by the drawing tool on the right sheet with the right fill and effects, and then you use Draw->Symbols along line to add the bushes.

    A hedge.png
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019
     
    Could Remy help with a macro that does just that?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019
     
    There has been a lot of whispering on this thread, Quenten, and a lot of advice and backstage support.

    Things that I simply can't do from inside a drawing tool macro at the moment may one day be possible, but I can't say any more than that because I'm not part of the development team.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019 edited
     
    Popping on real quick again with a suggestion for thought, maybe? What if you made the hedgerow symbols connecting symbols. One of the nice things about round connecting symbols is there's no need to make multiple angled versions. Round is good for any angle. I did this with a custom stockade fence symbol and it works a treat. Obviously you might want more space between the symbols but the idea is the same. If you also include single hedgerow symbols users could fill in any odd gaps, if necessary. Of course, this doesn't provide the background.

    Or, of course, this could be a great opportunity for Ralf to include information about the Symbols Along (ESC) function in the mapping guide.  :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019 edited
     
    Another thought, if the background was a thin poly with an Edge Fade effect (instead of a line), would a symbol fill macro work (one of the SYMFILL or FOREST macros)? *fades back into the ether*
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: DogtagPopping on real quick again with a suggestion for thought, maybe? What if you made the hedgerow symbols connecting symbols. One of the nice things about round connecting symbols is there's no need to make multiple angled versions. Round is good for any angle. I did this with a custom stockade fence symbol and it works a treat. Obviously you might want more space between the symbols but the idea is the same. If you also include single hedgerow symbols users could fill in any odd gaps, if necessary. Of course, this doesn't provide the background.

    Or, of course, this could be a great opportunity for Ralf to include information about theSymbols Along(ESC) function in the mapping guide.:D

    Yes that would work, only they aren't really round. I had to modify them a little to look more like the ones on the original sample (which I got a sharper copy of to see for sure). The ink line around each bush is a narrow arch with a gap at the bottom. So unfortunately I would have to do all kinds of angles. I've also had to modify the symbols again to put the base of the bush at the centre of the png so that they would sit on the line properly. I couldn't just chop the symbol dead straight at the base and put the alignment bottom centre, because they are in truth very heavily blurred to look right with the accompanying fills.

    This is one of them. (The gap underneath is the other half of the png below the centre point)

    Bush 01.png

    I used Symbols along to redraw the hedges in the example map so that it would look like the maps that users would draw using the same technique.

    Annual Ferraris Style2.jpg

    While the effect is to have much more densely packed hedgerows, the style of this particular extract is more sparse than other parts of the map, where the hedgerows look a lot like this.

    Posted By: DogtagAnother thought, if the background was a thin poly with anEdge Fadeeffect (instead of a line), would a symbol fill macro work (one of theSYMFILLorFORESTmacros)?*fades back into the ether*

    Would that work with a closed poly with a line width?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2020
     
    Ok. Different project entirely...

    If I had a tool that drew a poly on one sheet, but I wanted that poly copied onto no less than 5 other sheets simultaneously, would this be possible using a macro?

    The reason I ask is because I have this idea for a new style that depends very much on being able to easily draw a land-shaped hole through 5 sheets of ocean without getting into all the complexities of copying it across one sheet at a time by hand.

    This is the map so far - a doodle just to get the effects heading in the right direction. The land shades are all in the background. That's how I've got them to behave in a way that doesn't depend on the coastline. But to do this with drawing tools I would need a macro that put the same Colour Key shape on all 5 ocean sheets at the same time.
      Spectrum example 1.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2020
     
    You can, but it is a bit tricky, because a command to copy an entity to a specific sheet is missing. But you can do it by hiding sheets by a filter, and then copy to all visible sheets, and then show all sheets again.
    Of course, you can't save the original selection of sheets, so we have to just show all sheets at the end, which have the side effect that any sheets previously hidden now shows.

    The macro to do this would be:
    RDOFF
    SELSAVE
    SELBYP
    HIDESHTF *
    SHOWSHTF OCEAN*
    COPYVIS
    SHOWSHTF *
    SELREST
    RDON

    (For this example, all the sheets involved in the operation, both the sheet you draw the entity on and the sheets you copy them to should be called OCEAN something, and no other sheets in the drawing should have OCEAN as a prefix)


    Editing this entity would be a nightmare though, since you would need to update all 5 copies.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2020
     
    Thank you so much!

    That's fantastic. It should do exactly what I need it to do.

    I'll try it out and let you know how it worked.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMedio
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2020
     
    Sounds interesting. I must say that one of the biggest problems of CC3+ to me at least is how the program blends textures, it doesnt do it well or does it with real effort. Other programs which are way simpler, as Inkarnate or Wonderdraft, made it much better and faster.

    On this map the blending, without being perfect, is much better than the average mapping ive seen. So, kudos and keep bringing up fresh ideas!

    :)
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2020
     
    Posted By: MedioI must say that one of the biggest problems of CC3+ to me at least is how the program blends textures, it doesnt do it well or does it with real effort. Other programs which are way simpler, as Inkarnate or Wonderdraft, made it much better and faster.

    Can you elaborate? Are you looking at the notion of per-entity transparency or something else entirely?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMedio
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2020
     
    Humm i guess i was just refering to the fact that in CC3+ it takes more time than in other programs to get a good texture blending, that´s all. What i can get in Photoshop, Inkarnate or Wonderdraft in a quite fast way, it´s ahead on what i can get on CC3+, in either time or final result. Maybe it could be my fault but to be honest, it´s also what i see when i check CC3+ maps compared with other maps from the above mentioned programs.

    I understand that it´s due how CC3+ works, but still it´s something that bugs me out.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMedio
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2020 edited
     
    Just one example on Inkarnate, check how texture blends in many points:
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2020
     
    If I'm not mistaken, you're describing an alpha fade of the sort that you'd get with the "Edge Fade, Inner" effect. I was trying to get a set of effects that would hit most of the general blend features found in Photoshop and many other layered paint programs.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2020 edited
     
    Just for information in this conversation, the only difference between what I did and what we normally do in a CC3 map is that I have many similar shades of a thing - each on their own sheet. Each sheet has a simple EFI on it, but the extents of the patches I drew are nowhere near as coordinated as they usually are. The overlap and cross over in several places - the EFI doing the work of blending each to it's underlying partner at any one point.

    This is it without the sheet effects. Sorry! I decided to have another go at the land, so this is a different pattern and only the southern tip so far.

    Oops.jpg

    What I am doing to get the textures on the land to behave independent of the limitations of the coastline is putting the ocean right on top of the stack. Hence the need for a drawing tool that will cut all the way through those 5 sheets to the land when you draw the COASTLINE (itself a cut out shape, so that's 6 identical polygons in one go).

    This is the texture set so far. Its very plain, and very basic (needs a lot more texture to get really interesting). I'm planning to make 3 of each basic colour with different patterns.

    Spectrum.jpg

    If I was doing this in KRITA (sorry - GIMP won't do it this way because its groupings don't work in as sophisticated a way as Krita's do) I would use an identical number of layers, group all the LAND textures together under a single land mask and give each of them their own sub-level mask so I could paint splodges of them visible according to the landscape. I would only be using probably one very basic soft edged brush to paint them.

    I'm afraid the only way you could do it exactly like that in CC3 is if you had a built in bitmap tool that would paint a black and white transparency/opacity mask for each sheet, and a way of grouping the sheets into land and sea with the land group having a master mask to denote the extent of the land. Unfortunately I seem to remember that someone said having a bitmap editor built into CC3 would never be possible. So that's why I'm trying to get a reasonable compromise working. It will have to have many more sheets and many more textures than is usual for a CC3 map, and it might prove to be cumbersome in the end, but I thought it was worth a try.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMedio
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2020 edited
     
    Posted By: jslaytonIf I'm not mistaken, you're describing an alpha fade of the sort that you'd get with the "Edge Fade, Inner" effect. I was trying to get a set of effects that would hit most of the general blend features found in Photoshop and many other layered paint programs.


    Yeah, i´ve used that effect for most of my maps; still it´s not intuitive, need some workaround, and it´s not fast. Still far from other programs blending features.

    To me, it´s the main issue that PF should work in.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMedio
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2020
     
    And yeah, Sue, i remember reading there was an issue about how CC3 is built which makes hard to do this on an easy way. The only way nowadays to do good blending is to create multiple sheets and play with transparency and fade inner edge to get the desired effect.

    Doing it in, let´s say Inkarnate, with a single button pressing while takes me not less than 10 minutes to get the same effect in CC3+ irks me quite a bit.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2020
     
    You can always do a background in something like GIMP and import it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMedio
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2020
     
    Humm guess so. Or maybe prepare some transparent textures to use.

    The thing is, what i really liked from CC3 was building the map, then do some postwork effects in PS. If i have to prepare it beforehand, and afterward... I´ll be tempted to do it all in the same program :D
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2020
     
    I am a multi-media mapper myself, and I regard apps as tools in my toolbox. Each app has it's strengths and weaknesses, like a hammer makes a pretty poor spanner, and vice versa.

    Most of the maps I've made that have won challenges on more general mapping sites were made in many different apps and pulled together as layers in GIMP. All of them have parts that are purely CC3 because CC3 can do stuff that I've never found a bitmap editor can do - like automatic roof shading for a start. If I need to use 5 different apps, I use them. It doesn't matter to me how many times I swap, as long as I get the result I'm after.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2020 edited
     
    Remy - that macro worked perfectly.

    Thank you very much! :D

    (That's the white background through the hole in the sea)

    land cutter.png
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2020
     
    @Medio - I've tried out the free version of Inkarnate and found it maddening to try to use. I've seen some amazing maps made with it, but I guess it's all what you're used to using. I found it very limiting as are a number of other mapping apps that I've tried.

    I'm a ProFantasy fangirl for life I guess. :)
  1.  
    Posted By: Monsen
    The macro to do this would be:
    RDOFF
    SELSAVE
    SELBYP
    HIDESHTF *
    SHOWSHTF OCEAN*
    COPYVIS
    SHOWSHTF *
    SELREST
    RDON

    (For this example, all the sheets involved in the operation, both the sheet you draw the entity on and the sheets you copy them to should be called OCEAN something, and no other sheets in the drawing should have OCEAN as a prefix)

    This would make an excellent macro drawing tool. Could you post a link to a map file (or better yet a template) with this tool and the appropriate ocean sheet effects? Or is there an existing CA template I could use?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2020 edited
     
    I've already implemented it in the example map I am working on - a style where it is necessary to place the entire map below the sea and cut a hole in the sea to 'make' the land. Since you can draw more sea texture on top of the Colour Key pieces, this means the rivers have no apparent join.

    Unfortunately I cannot share the FCW, since it is very much a work in progress and highly experimental.

    The ocean and rivers in this screen shot are drawn on 5 sheets all named "OCEAN X" where X is the name of the particular shade of blue ocean fill. Each sheet has a Colour Key effect on it set to magenta, so when I create a drawing tool that draws solid magenta polygons, and attach this macro to it, the drawing tool draws a magenta cutting shape on the top ocean sheet which is then instantly copied to all the other ocean sheets. So the feeling of it is one of having 'drawn' the land.

    cut.png

    If you want to make a tool like this all you have to do is create your drawing tool with all the properties you want to draw your magenta polygon, and then check the "Use macro command" and "Apply macro after drawing" boxes. Then click the "Command to execute" button and paste the text of the macro into the little window that appears. Don't forget to hit return at the end of it just once and delete any other line spaces you may have copied with it. And with all ok'd that's your drawing tool.

    macro.png

    The rivers in this example are drawn on the bottommost OCEAN sheet (which has the darkest water on it). They are drawn in the lightest water shade, but the mismatch isn't apparent because all the ocean sheets have been cut the same way with identical polygons and the topmost OCEAN sheet (with the lightest shade of ocean) overlaps the ends of the rivers.

    The dark glow you can see on the coast can't be done the usual way using the land, because the land is a rectangular background. Instead I placed a glow effect on the bottommost OCEAN sheet *after* the Colour Key effect.