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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019 edited
     
    I am thoroughly muddled up with drawing tool macros, but willing to keep trying.

    My current project is creating the Ferraris style annual issue. The fills and symbols I know how to do, and they're coming on fine, but what I can't figure out is how to make a few rather specific drawing tools - if they are even possible. Here is a list of what I would like them to do, under an image of the example map so far (to give an idea of how they would be applied).

    Annual Ferraris Style3.JPG

    - Draw a polygon with a bitmap fill that is aligned to the first side. This is to make drawing the stripy fields a lot easier.

    - Automatically draw a filled circle on a different sheet to the line that is exactly the same diameter as the line width. This is to join different types of road that are on different sheets with both sheets having glow effects that will show as lines across roads at the point where they join. An example of what I mean by the circle is the way the roads are drawn by the random city generator.

    - Automatically select random bushes or trees and do the symbols along line job on the line the user is drawing right at that moment with the drawing tool. This would help greatly with drawing the lines of trees and bushes. Maybe this needs to be some kind of connecting symbol instead, but I don't know how to do it so that the connecting symbols stay the right way up no matter what direction the line goes in - trees with trunks to the ground etc. When I draw the trees properly so that they have tiny little shadow lines it will also be important that they are sorted once drawn in a way similar to the sort symbols in map tool does it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    The second one is simple - just put the 'outline' on 1 sheet/layer, and the other component on the other sheet/layer. Look at how walls work in most cases.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    The second one is about the problem illustrated below. There are two road types in the Ferraris style - one has shading down one side only, and the other doesn't. Both have the same outline. To economise on nodes at every turn I have generated the outline using a glow effect on both sheets, and added a shadow effect to the sheet with the roads that need the shading on them. This all works well until the two different kinds of road meet up in a junction where the glow effecting the outline on the uppermost road cuts across the end of the underlying one because its on a different sheet.

    There are several solutions to this, but the one I'm looking at first is one that I know must be possible because its how the roads are drawn by the random city generator - to put a circle of the same fill on top of them both on a sheet with no effects whatsoever. It hides the join. This is what I have done by hand on the left, leaving the one on the right as it appears without the circle.

    What I am thinking of is a drawing tool that will do this automatically.
      Road junction.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019 edited
     
    A different way of dealing with the same problem is to put both types of road on the same sheet, but make sure that the roads drawn by the tool that draws the roads with the shading also creates a copy of the drawn line on a different sheet in a different fill to simulate the shadow - a line of the same thickness done in one of the transparent Solid fills. It would also have to move the line a set number of units in a standard direction - a displacement. Either way, something has to be drawn on a different sheet that is 'other' than what the user has just drawn on the map. One involves drawing a specific circle, the other involves replicating the road changing its properties and moving it to one side.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    Its not the manual task, but the macro that automates that job when you are using the drawing tool to draw the roads. I can't figure it out.

    Doing the whole thing by hand is fine (I did the example map entirely by hand because I couldn't figure out the drawing tool macros), but it is definitely a little clunky.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    Remy to the Rescue.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019 edited
     
    Maybe :)

    I don't even know if what I want is possible. Been trying for nearly a week now between textures, and I still can't figure out the first one. I think I have a basic concept problem. If I could work out how to think about macros maybe I would do a bit better.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    These are tricky. I'll need to think a bit about it.
    I don't think the first one is doable using a macro until the next CC3+ update.

    For the second one, drawing a circle the same width as the road is tricky if the road can have any width, but if you have drawing tools with fixed widths (which city road drawings tools usually are anyway), it should be doable. Likewise, making a copy of the road, move it a few units, and change fill is also doable in a macro, what I worry about here is getting the direction right since that seems to depend on the direction of the road.

    For the third one, it can be mostly automated with Symbols Along (will probably need a dedicated symbol catalog too, bu that is easy enough), but the ESCM command don't allow the line to be selected by the macro, so the user would have to click on it after drawing it.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    :D

    Thanks Remy!

    Ah, well that might be some of why I can't get the first one to work.

    On the second one the roads will be set widths in the drawing tools (different widths for different kinds of road), and the existing shadow is a shadow effect on that Particular sheet. The original map is inconsistent because the shading was never intended to be a shadow, but just a second line that was one side or other of the road. Shadow or shifted duplicate is as close as we can come I guess. If this is just too messy and awkward I have considered putting all the roads on the same sheet with the shadow and making the only difference be the width of the road. That will be close enough to the original for most people. I will probably upset the purists, though!

    I had really big doubts about whether the third one could be done, or it would probably have been done before now. Would users get used to the idea of having to click it again after drawing it? I know I would, but that's just me.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    This is just a by the way question, but if I am creating line styles and drawing tools in the FCT and the "Annual Ferraris Style" folder I set up according to the instructions in Ralf's blogs about making your own style, do I have to be worried about the line style not being saved with the template?

    I'm so sorry - all this technical stuff fascinates me, even though I'm absolutely crap at understanding it all.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    Posted By: Loopysuedo I have to be worried about the line style not being saved with the template?
    Line styles should be saved in the template, so if it doesn't save with the template there is something strange afoot.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    I can't tell yet. I'm actually making the map in the FCT file. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

    I made the line style in the FCT while I was making the map, so I assume that when I've finished and duplicate the FCT and take all the drawn bits out of it except the frame and the screen the line style will stay with the template.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    Yes, they will.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2019
     
    Excellent :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2019
     
    I've decided that the second issue with the roads joining can be solved more simply. There is a dropout problem with the road texture because its the same texture as the background and a glow has been used on the roads to give them the outline, so I had to add a backing sheet to all the roads regardless of type to separate them from the background.

    Now, if I put all the roads on one sheet but make separate drawing tools for each of the two types of road, I can have each drawing tool add the necessary lines to one of two backing sheets - only one of which will cast a shadow.

    That means there are no strange circles, and I can clone one of the wall tools to make both the new road tools.

    Roads will only be a pain for the user if the user decides to adjust it's shape.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2019 edited
     
    Hi! I saw this conundrum and Sue's done such an amazing job with this style, I'd hate this to be a... roadblock. So, I'm popping on real quick with a suggestion.  :D

    There's an easy — but unintuitive — solution to the road problem, no macros needed. Don't use outlines (or glows); use two entities in the drawing tool settings. There are similar roads in CA20 Overland Black & White issue of Volume 2 (2008) of the Cartographer's Annual.

    The "outline" is actually a thicker, darker line on a sheet below the lighter, thinner line (e.g., a Roads Outline sheet and a Roads sheet). The darker "outlines" are always below the lighter "roads" and so when two roads cross, the "outlines" cross below where the two "roads" cross. There is no outline to cross over the first road and thus the intersections are clean. In CA20, the lighter road is set up using the Outline properties and the darker "outline" is set up using the main Properties. I'm not sure how important that is since they go on different sheets, but that's how it's set up in CA20. Regardless, I believe this is Ralf's genius idea (he'll correct me if I'm wrong) and it works beautifully.

    As for the two road types (if I understand the issue there), you can make two tools that use different outline sheets, one with a shadow effect and one without (e.g., Roads Outline, Shadow and Roads Outline). I think that would work.

    Here are the settings for a Major Road in the CA20 annual. They probably need to be tweaked since I'm sure the scales are very different but this should put you on the right... track. *rimshot*  ;)

    (If desired, click each image for a full-size version)


    This trick also works if you make a tool for a market square (or circle or poly or whatever shape), and works nicely for rivers and lakes, too. These also use the "two-entities & two-sheets" trick but, for the poly tools (e.g. market square), the settings are a little different. The "outline" width is a fraction of the map border just like the road outline, but the "market square" itself has a fixed width of 0.00 (so it's a filled poly).
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2019
     
    Fantastic!

    And with those lovely illustrations I can't really go in the wrong direction.

    Thank you very much, Dogtag

    It's great seeing you around the place again :D
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2019
     
    Thanks to your guidance, Dogtag, I've managed to sort out the roads onto 3 sheets, though I left the 'outline' as a glow on the ROADS sheet, since it disagreed with the shadow on one of the two ROAD BASE sheets. Both BASE sheets separate the roads from the background and have to be there anyway.
      aa2.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2019
     
    So...

    I'm looking at the last one now. I would like to make the hedgerows relatively automatic to draw using a drawing tool.

    Close examination of the original map has revealed that there is a kind of green line underneath the bushes in a hedgerow, so I've started a tool that draws a thick green line on an appropriate sheet, but I can't seem to get it to ask me to click a line or enter anything to put the bushes along it. This is what I've got so far. Please don't laugh. My brain doesn't function very well where macros are concerned.

    SELSAVE
    SELBYP
    ESCM xyPath
    SELREST


    I know! I know! It's pathetic :(
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2019
     
    It's all Chinese to me...
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2019
     
    ...or double dutch
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019
     
    Well, the top 2 lines and the bottom one are usually always there with a drawing tool macro because they save and restore the current settings, like the line width, colour and texture. It's so you don't have to manually reset everything every time you use a drawing tool.

    So the only one I picked from the list of macros that comes with the Tome is the ESCM command. Unfortunately that one doesn't work right now in this context.

    So what I've done is make a drawing tool to draw the green line background and called it hedgerow background. It's not too difficult for people to then use the symbols along tool to automatically add the hedgerow on top of it.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019 edited
     
    So the line is drawn by the drawing tool on the right sheet with the right fill and effects, and then you use Draw->Symbols along line to add the bushes.

    A hedge.png
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019
     
    Could Remy help with a macro that does just that?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019
     
    There has been a lot of whispering on this thread, Quenten, and a lot of advice and backstage support.

    Things that I simply can't do from inside a drawing tool macro at the moment may one day be possible, but I can't say any more than that because I'm not part of the development team.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019 edited
     
    Popping on real quick again with a suggestion for thought, maybe? What if you made the hedgerow symbols connecting symbols. One of the nice things about round connecting symbols is there's no need to make multiple angled versions. Round is good for any angle. I did this with a custom stockade fence symbol and it works a treat. Obviously you might want more space between the symbols but the idea is the same. If you also include single hedgerow symbols users could fill in any odd gaps, if necessary. Of course, this doesn't provide the background.

    Or, of course, this could be a great opportunity for Ralf to include information about the Symbols Along (ESC) function in the mapping guide.  :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019 edited
     
    Another thought, if the background was a thin poly with an Edge Fade effect (instead of a line), would a symbol fill macro work (one of the SYMFILL or FOREST macros)? *fades back into the ether*
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: DogtagPopping on real quick again with a suggestion for thought, maybe? What if you made the hedgerow symbols connecting symbols. One of the nice things about round connecting symbols is there's no need to make multiple angled versions. Round is good for any angle. I did this with a custom stockade fence symbol and it works a treat. Obviously you might want more space between the symbols but the idea is the same. If you also include single hedgerow symbols users could fill in any odd gaps, if necessary. Of course, this doesn't provide the background.

    Or, of course, this could be a great opportunity for Ralf to include information about theSymbols Along(ESC) function in the mapping guide.:D

    Yes that would work, only they aren't really round. I had to modify them a little to look more like the ones on the original sample (which I got a sharper copy of to see for sure). The ink line around each bush is a narrow arch with a gap at the bottom. So unfortunately I would have to do all kinds of angles. I've also had to modify the symbols again to put the base of the bush at the centre of the png so that they would sit on the line properly. I couldn't just chop the symbol dead straight at the base and put the alignment bottom centre, because they are in truth very heavily blurred to look right with the accompanying fills.

    This is one of them. (The gap underneath is the other half of the png below the centre point)

    Bush 01.png

    I used Symbols along to redraw the hedges in the example map so that it would look like the maps that users would draw using the same technique.

    Annual Ferraris Style2.jpg

    While the effect is to have much more densely packed hedgerows, the style of this particular extract is more sparse than other parts of the map, where the hedgerows look a lot like this.

    Posted By: DogtagAnother thought, if the background was a thin poly with anEdge Fadeeffect (instead of a line), would a symbol fill macro work (one of theSYMFILLorFORESTmacros)?*fades back into the ether*

    Would that work with a closed poly with a line width?