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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2019
     
    There aren't any ends in a seamless texture, Jim, but there are sheet effects that will cause the rows to appear to come to an end just before the hedgerow ;)

    The likelihood that what I'm doing will end up being a precise facsimile of the original hand drawn maps is actually quite low because I'm using digital techniques to emulate hand drawn results. I can probably get this quite close, but it will take a lot of experimenting. That means a lot of comments and consultations, so instead of utterly hijacking khornishman's thread (as if I haven't already - sorry khornishman!), I'm going to start one of my own to carry on the development. I should have done that right from the start really, but I wasn't really thinking all that far ahead when I showed the first draft textures.

    Is it all right if I link to it from here, khornishman?
    • CommentAuthorkhornishman
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2019 edited
     
    Sue,

    Great work and it is totally okay posting that all here. The other thread is fine too. :)

    I am still needing to finish slogging through about another 100 of the map sections to see if there are other fills beyond what I already posted. However you wish to proceed within the forum is okay by me, whether linking threats or whatever.

    I did not think to see anything of this for some time, so this is a nice surprise, thank you.
  1.  
    This appears to be lightly wooded hills
      AF lightly wooded hills.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2019 edited
     
    Thank you :)

    I have quite a collection of images to work from now.

    That I've started on this now doesn't necessarily mean that there will be rapid progress. I have a few other projects that are long overdue, and I've lit the fuse on the copyright issue.

    I don't suppose this might be 'crown copyright' of the Netherlands, would it?

    Or of Belgium?
    • CommentAuthorkhornishman
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2019 edited
     
    another fill for meadows or perhaps marshy ground. Not marshy ground, after checking about a dozen maps with this fill. May be undulating, but not hilly, meadows.
      AF meadow 2.png
    • CommentAuthorkhornishman
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2019 edited
     
    wetlands of some kind? Going through several maps, this does look like some wetlands.
      AF wetlands.png
    • CommentAuthorkhornishman
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2019 edited
     
    lake... it appears that the mapmaker used lighter and heavier applications of the watercolors to denote variances
      AF lakes.png
  2.  
    I do not have a copy of this map, but might be able to get one in December. I have a friend who can go through the book for me, in Belgium. I will ask her if there's some key to the fills used.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2019
     
    Do you think that you could please also ask her to check about the rights on this map, if any?
  3.  
    hills, for sure.
      AF hills.png
    • CommentAuthorkhornishman
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2019 edited
     
    Sue,

    Yes. I will ask her.

    I know there is an infrequently published version, Lannoo Publishers did a one in 2011. But, the original map was finished in 1778 and is kept in the Royal Library of Belgium.

    It looks like most international copyright laws for maps have an expiration of 70 years after the death of the last person who worked on the map, but in the case of Crown copyrights in England, it is 125 years. I seriously doubt anyone can take issue with a style from over 200 years ago. But, I will still ask my friend.

    edit. I just wrote to the Royal Library of Belgium, asking about it.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2019
     
    Thank you :)

    It's one thing working on something, and quite another thing trying to sell it if people generally are a bit frightened of possible consequences if we're wrong about the copyright. It would be good to be able to reassure people that everything was fine.
  4.  
    Sue,

    I have received confirmation from the Royal Library. One is allowed to copy the style, just not to reproduce any portion of the map in their library.

    I can forward you the email, privately, if you'd like.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2019
     
    That fast? Wow!

    Thank you Khornishman :D

    No need for the email - I trust you ;)
  5.  
    Sue,

    The person that contacted me, whom I assume to be a curator of some kind, stated that my request peaked his interest and thus he responded so quickly. He'd like to see whatever it is that is produced, viz a map, as he is curious as to what will be done in that style.


    For that matter, so am I. :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2019
     
    Since this morning Profantasy have expressed an interest in turning this into an issue for the annual, so there will be an example map drawn in the style that is part of that issue. That will probably be the first map ever drawn in the new style. Unfortunately this will not be available until the issue is published.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2019
     
    Hurrah ! I love new maps and techniques. I may or may not use them, but they are neat to look at.
  6.  
    Sue,


    That is great news!

    My friend in Belgium is checking to see about map symbol key, this weekend. Hopefully, she'll have something to report back.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2019 edited
     
    A key would be fantastic, though I doubt there is one. It's a fairly modern concept.

    I don't think we started using keys until there was accurate data on 'different kinds of' or 'different levels of', such as geological data and population census data to map - and even then, not until such things became important to mining companies and those in power. War was probably an important motivator, since it would have been necessary to make sure that every general could instantly see the information it passed, though the key would probably have been a separate document for security reasons.
    • CommentAuthortaustinoc
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2019
     
    I've seen 16th century maps that have a rudimentary key, though it was more for man made features like cities than for geographical features.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2019
     
    Let's just hope there is, then :)
  7.  
    My friend was not able to get to my request, this weekend, as she intended. She did say she will try to get to it soon.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime6 days ago edited
     
    There is no rush, Khornishman :)

    Thank your friend very much from me for doing all this running around.

    I have also been looking at the Belgian copy of the map, which is a complete zoomy map here:

    The Belgian Ferraris map

    I haven't seen a single vestigial key anywhere, but I suspect that is because it is fairly easy to interpret the meaning of the fills.

    The zoomy version is slightly easier to use because you don't have to keep guessing at whether you have the right map section. You just pan. From it I have also noticed that what at first sight appear to be different fills are in fact the same fill drawn by different cartographers, using different drawing styles and strengths of ink, and that some sections are considerably more worn than others, which damages the colour (particularly the reds). I have a choice to make about which style to pick, and whether to restore the colour 'as new' or reproduce one of the various aging types visible in the different regions. This map was probably pretty brightly coloured when it was new, so I might go for aged, but not so much that everything looks too blue and yellow.
  8.  
    Sue,

    The aged version would probably be best, but if it can be done both newer and aged, the value of the annual would likely be increased, as it provides more options. I prefer the aged, myself.

    Since we only see the map itself I agree with you on your assessment to a point. It may well be that there was additional documentation that went with the map, but is not shown otherwise. Thus, my reliance on my friend's taking a look at the original map or at the very least the book version she has access to.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    I like the aged look too, but I think I have a slight preference for the areas where the colours aren't quite so badly faded. I was thinking along the lines of aged paper with slightly brighter colours.

    I will show what I mean over on my development thread when I have something worth showing :)
    • CommentAuthorkhornishman
    • CommentTime6 days ago edited
     
    In the Key of Ferraris. This is from the book that was published in French and Dutch. Sorry, I don't know how to turn the image here, but the file itself is properly oriented for reading.
      A6A58B56-922A-4D53-84EA-9C0329957D94.jpeg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Oh thank you so VERY much! :D

    That will be incredibly useful. Now I can work out what fills and symbols to do.
  9.  
    And thank YOU for taking up the task that I am unequipped to perform.


    Now, I need to think of some way to repay my friend for her time.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    I can only offer her my gratitude

    Please thank her very much from me, will you?
    • CommentAuthortaustinoc
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    I wonder how much of the aging could be done with sheet effect. Or maybe a sheet with various effects, and the sheet can be turned on and off.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime5 days ago edited
     
    I have already experimented with this aspect. The paper I have made looks aged, but can easily be made to look a lot newer by using an HSL sheet effect to lighten it. I did a little research and found that bleach was not in use for paper making until long after this map was drawn, so the paper would never have been perfectly white, even when it was new. It was probably finest linen paper, and there are interesting hints even to the nature of the mesh it was made on if you look at the subtle horizontal bars in the ocean washes - also built into the new textures. There were no 'finishing' techniques with china clay on the surface like there are today, so though it is painted in inks it would have been too absorbent for there to be a tidemark edge. This also explains the raggedness of the edges of the stripes. The ink sank quickly into the paper - a very difficult medium to paint on compared to modern paper.

    I will put up a new progress shot on my development thread when I get back from mum's tonight.
  10.  
    Sue,

    Sure thing!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime3 days ago edited
     
    Khornishman - I feel almost guilty about this after all the trouble your friend went through to get the key, but I've found another one online here:

    pdf file

    However, where the two of them overlap to a certain extent, there are things that only appear in one or the other of them, so it wasn't an entirely wasted effort, and I'm still very grateful for her efforts :)

    The pdf version I've just found is at the end of an article that has quite a lot of detail about the history of the making of the Ferraris map - including information about the main cartographers and the way the detail gradually became less and less as time went on due to fatigue (burnout boredom I guess). It's quite a fascinating read.
  11.  
    Sue,

    No worries. I was going for what the Royal Library recognized as an official key.

    The history of the map and mapmakers is sure intereting. I'd love to read Ferraris' memoirs.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime3 days ago
     
    They're both official keys. They just cover very slightly different things because opinions sometimes differ when there was no key for the map other than the one that resided in the minds of the trained mapmakers of that day.

    What I have to do now is decide what is needed for a fully functional style that CC3 mappers might use to create their own fantasy game maps, while trying not to clutter it with too many different types of meadow etc. A balance.

    I'm nearly there, but I want to think about the new key I drew up this morning before I show it.