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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2018 edited
     
    Is it ok to use the same fills and frills as a PF style, and to mimic everything - even down to the roof ridges and the black outline?

    I don't know.

    I guess it wouldn't matter if I was only going to use these for myself, but when I started drawing these little houses I was going to use them in Sanctuary and upload them to the Atlas.

    Hmmm...

    I've abandoned this project for now, since I don't think its right.

    Sorry everyone! I know I said I would make a set. The trouble is that for Sanctuary I really needed that set to match the existing styles. I will carry on using shaded poly constructions instead. You can still have those when I've finished the city and uploaded it :)
      Hmmm.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Ok, I don't feel right copying the existing styles, so I'm trying to make a new one altogether.

    One of the problems I've been having with Sanctuary is that its kind of southern Mediterranean/north African latitude, and there aren't any roof textures like Spanish barrel tiles. So I tried to make one.

    I don't think it really goes with any of the other textures I'm using in Sanctuary, but I'd like to know if anyone else would be interested in a new set done with this texture.

    (The roof ridge is terrible, by the way. That's not how its going to look when I'm done with it)
      Spanish barrel tiles.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Personally i'd LOVE a barrel tiled roof fill.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Its not quite perfect yet, Lorelei. For some reason I can't quite fathom at the moment its a little bit blurry compared to the fills of the standard sets I'm going to be trying to mix these with. I also need to do a darker and lighter version as well for variety between the houses of the set. These tiles weather all different shades, so having only one texture is going to look a bit false.

    I don't know what stage the plans for a community art collection are at, but I'm kind of hoping that everything will come together in such a way that by the time I finish making the full set I might be able to upload it to the collection and use the actual buildings in Sanctuary - where they are badly needed.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Yes, its not perfect. I think I can barely see one or two pixels slightly off. Not being sarcastic. I'm astounded you think its 'off'. I think its fantastic !

    And it doesn't matter if it goes with the other textures or not, I would use it at the drop of a hat.
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    I think the difference I notice is that the tile roof looks photographic while the others are all obviously drawn. That's easy enough to rectify by running it through the cartoon filter in GIMP which will turn it into more of a drawing than a photograph.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    I'm spending a day trying various different methods producing lots of variations of the fill. I do tend towards photorealism, but I can see that's not doing me any favours right now ;)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Wow that last one was bright!

    I hadn't realised just how bright it was.

    Ok. I've toned it down a lot, and sorted out the ridge and a chimney. Any comments/suggestions?
      Spanish barrel tiles2.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    That does make it look a lot more like the CC3+ city set
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    There's something else I hadn't thought of. I haven't put any swatches of the other City roof fills down around it to see if this one will go with all the shaded poly buildings I've got in Sanctuary.

    Its still oddly fuzzy. If you look at the wooden building above it - how clean the lines around the tiles are?
    • CommentAuthorJoeyD473
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    I really like this rooftop.

    I agree it looks a little fuzzy
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Thanks Joey :)

    There's still some work to do on the texture to make it work properly. I think the problem is the amount of texturing I've put on the tiles. Its kind of drowning the more delicate lines defining them.

    That's the theory anyway ;)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    As long as it isn't growing mold, I don't see the fuzzy bits on the roof.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018 edited
     
    Believe me, Jim. Its fuzzy.

    That's a 1500 pixel texture, and its crystal clear. For some reason, though, its breaking down when applied to a shaded polygon. I must have some rather pale/dark pixels in it that are causing problems. Its either that or the texturing of the tiles.

    I'll try applying a levels node to the texture to trim either end of the colour range, so that nothing is too close to either white or black.

    Levels nodes have a tendency to muck up the colour in strange and unexpected ways, though, so I may have to play around with it quite a bit more.
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    I like the toned down version much better. Yes, a bit fuzzy, but you should be able to correct that with a sharpen filter.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    I think the lines are too thin, Scott. They're disappearing into a load of fuzzy pixels.

    An interesting effect here - the original has really dark roof flanks(?), but the moment I converted it and its map file into a symbol it turned really pale.

    That took an awful lot of messing around! LOL!

    I'm wondering if I did something wrong that it went so pale?
      Test.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    I have a problem.

    Well, in fact I have several problems relating to the drawing and how to make the roof ridge stand out more etc, but this particular problem you can see below is one I can't solve by myself.

    When I reflect my newly made symbol the shading also flips over and is the wrong way around. I've obviously done something wrong, because none of my other symbols have this problem. I just don't know what.
      Groan.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Where is the sun? Why, of course - its in the middle!
    •  
      CommentAuthorOldGuy
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    I agree with your reservations over releasing images that are modifications of someone else's work. But before completely abandoning that project, you might look into securing rights from the original artist(s) to create a derivative work. You do such beautiful work, it would be a shame to lose the work you did there without at least checking to see if maybe the original artist would be ok with it.

    That said, your new creations are quite beautiful as well. I hope you'll keep adding to them.

    One last comment. More of a question, really. Would someone with a hay roof (or similar) have a chimney? I honestly don't know, but it seems dangerous to me? Please don't take it as a criticism. I was just curious.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Thanks OldGuy :)

    The first image I showed included unaltered houses from the main CD3 styles dotted around the ones I was working on, and which I carefully cut in half so that they could not be used. The building in the rectangle is the one I drew from scratch using the fills available in CD3. Initially I was deliberately trying to make them look like the PF styles because I wanted to mix and match them in a map without them looking odd, but a couple of hours after I started I realised it wasn't a great thing to do if I wanted to share them. So I stopped.

    Can I take it as a compliment that I managed to make my wooden skillet and lean to house look so similar to the CD3 wooden building that it might have been mistaken as a modified symbol? :)

    There isn't a set of buildings done in the reed style. I drew that one from scratch as well, and extrapolated what it might look like based on the existing thatched style immediately above it. But again - I was using the PF fills to make it.

    That's why I abandoned them (they are now deleted), and moved onto creating my own style with my own fills, which will hopefully be compatible with the PF styles to increase the variety. I just need to sort out a few things, like this strange problem with the mirroring not working properly, and the uncomfortable way the roof ridge just doesn't look right, and the way the lines defining the edges of the tiles are disintegrating somewhere between a perfectly good texture and the render.

    I hadn't really thought about the straw and chimney issue before now. Maybe if a house had a roof made of loose straw it would be quite a risk to have a fire without a stone chimney to insulate the thatch from the sparks and cinders, though I've learned quite recently that stone age roundhouses had no chimney at all - not even a hole in the roof in most cases. The smoke just filtered out through the thatch. I guess the weather must have been much worse back then, and the thatch almost permanently damp from the rain. I do remember it being explained to me that there was a lot more rain in the UK a couple of thousand years ago. That's why most stone age settlements are located much higher up the slope, or on the tops of hills, whereas we tend to build our modern towns in the valleys by the rivers these days.
    •  
      CommentAuthorOldGuy
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: LoopysueCan I take it as a compliment that I managed to make my wooden skillet and lean to house look so similar to the CD3 wooden building that it might have been mistaken as a modified symbol? :)

    Most definitely!
    Posted By: LoopysueI hadn't really thought about the straw and chimney issue before now. Maybe if a house had a roof made of loose straw it would be quite a risk to have a fire without a stone chimney to insulate the thatch from the sparks and cinders

    Actually, it was the fire itself that was my concern. I guess I wasn't very clear. Sorry. It was seeing the chimney, that implied a fire, that piqued my curiosity.
    Posted By: Loopysue[...] though I've learned quite recently that stone age roundhouses had no chimney at all - not even a hole in the roof in most cases. The smoke just filtered out through the thatch. I guess the weather must have been much worse back then, and the thatch almost permanently damp from the rain. I do remember it being explained to me that there was a lot more rain in the UK a couple of thousand years ago. That's why most stone age settlements are located much higher up the slope, or on the tops of hills, whereas we tend to build our modern towns in the valleys by the rivers these days.

    I did not know that. Always fun to learn something. Thanks!
  1.  
    Not mapping related, but since we are talking about it ....I believe experimental archaeology with reconstruction of roundhouses shows that a hole in the roof causes a "forced draft effect" which fans the fire and ignites the thatch. Without a hole, if built correctly, the smoke collects in the roof apex above head height as it filters out. It has the added benefit of reducing insect infestation in the thatch and prolongs the life of the building. I am not sure if this holds true for an apex roof but certainly early medieval halls in England had a central hearth, with no chimney, possibly a louvre arrangement in a tiled roof. Apologies for the digression. And settlement location is a whole big topic by itself. Mapping matters will now resume.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2018
     
    Oh is THAT how it works!

    No. Don't apologise - I've learned something new and interesting today.

    Thank you :)
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2018
     
    As I continue to work on my Celtic village symbol set I am learning more and more about such matters, and they are fascinating. I have also run across the idea that a hole in the roof creates updrafts which could ignite the thatch. And the idea that the smoke was also an inhibitor to pests and fungi. Fascinating stuff, this history thing! LOL!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2018 edited
     
    The more I learn, the more I realise just how ignorant I am! LOL!

    I'm still having a problem with reflecting house symbols. But I've just discovered that it may be a glitch.

    This is my test symbol reflected, alongside one of the Bitmap A thatch cottages, also reflected.

    As you can see the PF symbol is also reversed. Has it always been this way? I mean, has it always been the case that if you reflect a shaded symbol the shading is also reflected? I don't remember if I had this problem before and just got used to it being that way (therefore remembering never to reflect them), or if this is a new thing.

    shadow problem.jpg

    The ok ones are on the right, as you can tell by the roof shading matching the shadow.
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2018
     
    Hm... now I'm just taking an uneducated, non-techie guess, but since the buildings are made up of two symbols, basically, perhaps the second one with the shade code (the _map one) doesn't flip when you mirror the symbol. But then... wouldn't there be errant shading on the ground where the house indent is? I'm likely wrong, but that's my first thought.
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2018
     
    All of the fills look to be mirrored when this geometry is mirrored. The shading fills probably shouldn't be, because that's flipping all of the normals.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2018 edited
     
    Thank you Jo :)

    I'm a bit confused, but that sounds like its not the done thing to reflect a building.

    Ok, I can live with that. I just need to make sure I don't design this set with a bias towards one side or the other - favouring more detail on the right or left, or having a subconscious feeling about which way round things 'should be', but draw them all equally. Maybe I will just draw them and flip every other drawing over to make sure there's no bias.

    I've finally figured out how to resolve all the little issues I was having with the actual drawing, and while the texture is still a little hard and a bit dark (I'll work on it some more), I've created the first draft symbol to the kind of quality I was aiming for.
      Barrel House 07.jpg
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2018
     
    It looks good. I'd say you've pretty much nailed it.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2018
     
    Thanks, Scott :)

    Now I've just got to perfect that fill so its not so contrasty and over-sharp, do the other 40 symbols... and the extras... and a windmill, watermill, several variations of tower, and a few ruins... and then all the varicolour symbols...

    Shouldn't take more than a couple of days :)

    Seriously, though, I've learned a lot about making symbols today that breaks all the rules I've always taken for granted in general digital art. The biggest one of those is that antialiasing anything is bad, because any semi-transparent pixels around the edge of a shaded symbol turn white!

    Yes - I take back all the things I usually say about rendering things at twice the final size and reducing them to reduce the blemishes and errors. The best way seems to be to draw the things in CC3 exactly to the final scale, render them out at 40 pixels per foot... without any antialiasing at all... delete the background with a nice pin sharp mask that doesn't use any antialiasing either, then put the image and map file together and that's it.

    I'm making the map files in CC3 and rendering them ready-made. That's what the boxes are for in the earlier images - to define the exact extent of the render area for each one. All I do is duplicate the image drawing and turn the relevant bits of it the right colour for the map file. Then I don't have to mess around for hours in GIMP.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2018 edited
     
    I've been working on the glowing red to tone it down, and a tower that took far longer to get right than it should.

    Barrel 07.jpg

    Tower 01.jpg
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    I would love an oval in that tile style - for arenas etc. Just putting in my bid!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    An arena, eh?

    Hmmm.

    So far on the extra and unusual building list I have:

    Kilns (apparently medieval villages always had a kiln or two... pottery must have been a bit too fragile to last very long!), blacksmith, watermill, windmill, towers (round and polygonal)…

    Anything else that people are always asking for?

    Other smaller things include something called a bee skep, which is like a shed without walls for keeping beehives in. Its extremely tiny and I'm not sure whether it should be part of the building set or included in a collection of things like water troughs and mill stones. Ruins as well...

    Bridges. There never seen to be enough bridges...

    I have a feeling I'm starting to drift rather a long way from the buildings, when I've only actually got one very small one nearly right.

    The style of the rooftops is a big question. That first one, and the one I'm working on now, are both Skillion with lean-to - which to me is like a large shed shape with a smaller shed shape back to back with it. The larger ones might take a bit of thought. I looked at medieval rooftops yesterday and found the general style is very flat - probably because these tiles tend to move over time. There are lots of different roof shapes - none of them square or straight, and a very great tendency for those dormer windows that are like a section of the roof cut into a flap and raised into a ski-slope flip at the bottom end. That's going to be a bit tricky! LOL!

    Styles vary dramatically from Mexico, through Spain, Italy and further east. I think I'm going to have to settle on one general style and concentrate on that one.

    Quenten - what does a medieval arena actually look like?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    The other thing that I suddenly realised when I was looking...

    There are hardly any chimneys!

    Surely we weren't still filling the upper floor with smoke that filtered out through the tiles in medieval times?
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    A bit like a coliseum, perhaps a bit more
    ovoid, or like a hippodrome, with curved ends. The roof would only be for the outer part, with the centre open to the sky. IMHO anyway.
  2.  
    It really depends what you mean by "medieval". These days what I think of "the dark ages" are commonly referred to as "early medieval". However from memory (of reading not personal experience !) in England open timber halls of the early post Norman conquest period were generally open all the way to the roof timbers and had a central hearth, with smoke filtering out, either through gaps, or at most a sort of louvre arrangement. This reflected the communal living and feasting lifestyle. Chimneys were inserted. Lords acquired more personal chambers. A chimney tended to be at one end of a room rather than central, although you do get central chimneys with fires on two sides where a hall was converted. I will check dates but as I recall this came in in the twelfth /thirteenth century. Newer buildings were built with chimneys from the start and older ones were upgraded but may have retained the older layout for a considerable time. Once chimneys had been inserted and with the move away from communal living spaces the great hall, previously open to the roof, often had a first floor inserted. A couple of things you look for when investigating timber buildings are a central hearth, usually hidden under a later floor and smoke blackening of timbers in the rafters now hidden in the attic both of which suggest the building was originally an open hall. It is not uncommon for a building regarded to be of fifteenth century date, or later, to prove to have been built around, or developed from, a much earlier halled building. I will probably be showing some visitors around Stokesay Castle this week. I think it has these features so I will try and grab some pictures.

    Other buildings - dovecotes if you want high status, I think medieval pottery kilns are usually pretty small, brew-houses, other structures - fishponds, fish-weirs, dams, quarries and mines (clay, stones, lime, metal, coal), charcoal burning heaps..........Many mines at this period would be bellpits, so what you see at ground level would be basically a crater, with a ring of spoil around a hole with a ladder gong down. Just some thoughs
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    All of what Andrew says is correct, but remember, this is Fantasy medieval, with magic, and is also a very civilized city - so think more Bagdad or Constantinople for sophistication.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    Thank you, Andrew :)

    I think I have a better picture in my mind of the sort of thing now - a gradual evolution away from the communal long houses and halls to private dwellings, which seems to be the driving force behind the necessity for chimneys. The partition of the upper floor space would not have been possible without them. You have also explained why one of our local landmark buildings (c.1100) has a large open 2 storey space with a balcony first floor. I wonder if this is even the reason that much later great houses were built with balcony first floors and grand staircases? A sort of race memory thing about there needing to be a central open space for the fire - later replaced by these showy staircases?

    Quenten - I think in the average building set of about 30-40 buildings there possibly isn't quite the range to be able to cater for everything, but I will certainly think about an arena. I have greater need for ordinary housing to fill the residential areas right now.

    You can make a really simple oval roof with a few shaded polygons?

    I'll knock one up for you in a minute. I'll use one of the standard city roof fills, but you can change properties to whatever you like.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    Here's another question.

    To modify, or not to modify?

    Here is what I mean.

    Five minutes tinkering in GIMP allowed me to weather the rooftop and add a bit of grass growing between the tiles. Do you like it better that way, or is this going a bit OTT with the details? The drawback is that this isn't something that can be reproduced in the texture itself, so drawing new shaded poly buildings with the standard barrel tile texture that would be provided with the set would only make buildings like the one on the right.
      Weathering question.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    And then...

    Just how far would you want to go with this modification if you liked it?
      Weathering question 2.jpg
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    Oooh ! Can we have some more porrige ? Uhm, buildings ?

    Anyway, I like the damaged roof. There aren't enough building symbols for abandoned cities, nor for ruins.

    Different amounts of damage would be nice. Along with different types of damage. Not that I'm asking for too many... say 5 or so ?

    Or small symbols/frills that could be placed on top of a non damaged building, and that would modify it. I don't know, but methinks it would be easier than drawing a new building for each change.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    LOL!

    Ok then. Assuming I get past this fixation I seem to have on one small building right now (its only the same size as the Thatched House 07 in the PF set), I could do an A set and a B set. Set A being the perfect ones without weathering and damage, and the Set B being the weathered and damaged ones for ruined cities.

    I'm hoping to get to grips with how to create varicolour house symbols as well, but right now I'm only at the very simple stage of creating the image and MAP files. I haven't even added any frills and things like it says in the TOME yet.

    It only took a total of about 20 minutes to do what I did with the weathering and ruining. I modified the existing symbol graphic in GIMP ;)
    • CommentAuthorpvernon
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    Loopysue, as far as building types go, remember that Greeks and Romans used tile like/similar to this for their buildings as well. So maybe something like a Roman house with a courtyard or something similar.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018 edited
     
    Funnily enough I was looking at Roman houses yesterday. They have a sort of double square arrangement a bit like a figure 8?

    I've also discovered that skillion roof is a really modern idea, so the building I've already done will be modified to a more classical gable, maybe with one of those ski-slope type dormer windows on it as well as the chimney :)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    Thanks !
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 19th 2018
     
    Oh yes! Sorry Jim! I keep forgetting who everyone is with two different names to remember. I have enough trouble just remembering one name for each person.

    Thanks to you calling the strangeness of the roof design to attention on the FB page, I have decided that skillion roofs are out :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 21st 2018
     
    Its going... ok.

    The first 7 houses are mostly done. A bit of touching up here and there. I might have to adjust the texture and re-render them, since there seems to be a flaw in the spacing of the tiles on the seam of the tile.

    There's only one regular shaped house in the set at the moment. The rest are all odd roof shapes. Is that a good or a bad thing?
      Roof Styles.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 21st 2018
     
    Oh yes! LOL!

    I forgot the tower - the first of 3 or 4
      Tower.jpg
  3.  
    What's the dark line on the two houses? Is it some sort of split level roof or?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 21st 2018
     
    Its a split level roof, LE :)

    I think I may need to do another set of the first 7 with more 'normal' rooftops ;)