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    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2018 edited
     
    I am working on 2 citiees at present. The first is Khelaphet, capital of the Magumul empire in Artemisia (I will also adapt it for my own world of Myirandios).
    The second is the beginning of the river city of Thredeos, in Mivlis, on Myirandios. I will also offer it to the Community Atlas somewhere, probably in Artemisia. I have used the attached city plan as a guide.
      Khelaphet.PNG
      Medium City alone (10).png
      Mivlis Thredeov WIP1.PNG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2018
     
    A glutton for punishment?

    One is enough for me ;)

    It seems to be quite organised. Is it some kind of military establishment that outgrew itself?
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2018
     
    Khelaphet is an island fortress of the Minotaurs, turned capital city. The Minotaurs are both paranoid and militaristic. I am doing this city in conjunction with Jerry Thiel (G'Thiel on this forum). The culture is Sumerian/Babylonian, with a bit of Aztec thrown in (architecture, anyway). Thredeos is based on Threshold of Mystara, though the city map is quite different.
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2018 edited
     
    For some reason I cannot get the Thredeos map to show properly - here goes another try
      Mivlis Thredeov.PNG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2018
     
    The watabou plan for Thredeov is quite altered in the map. I guess you are only using it for a very basic idea ;)

    There are some seriously directionally challenged trees on that last map. They appear to be upside down, but I guess we won't tell them that or they might get upset :P
    • CommentAuthorJosh.P.
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2018
     
    It's like your some sort of psycho! One city is a huge task... two is monstrous!

    Super excited to see your end results :)
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2018
     
    This is the sacred precinct of Khelaphet City with the archives of the Minotaurs on the left. They are highly organized and bureaucratic in nature and tend to keep every cuneiform tablet that they ever create. Yearly, tablets are brought from all the subdivisions of the Empire. Can't wait for Quenten to finish the overall map so I can map out individual areas!!
      Capture.JPG
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2018
     
    Oddly, the forum would not allow me to upload the jpg created by CC3+, so I had to upload a screen shot -- curiouser and curiouser.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2018
     
    There's a relatively low size limit here. Try around 1024 maximum width ;)
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2018
     
    An updated version of Khelaphet. Hope to finish this in under a week, so Jerry can get a few buildings for it into the Challenge and atlas. Next step is to put all major buildings in, then finish Barracks and Slave quarters.
      Khelaphet2.PNG
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2018 edited
     
    And here is the other update - Thredeov, for my land of Mivlis in Myirandios. Next will be adding the docks, and another quarter.
      Mivlis - Thredeov.PNG
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2018
     
    An update on Khelaphet.
      Khelaphet.PNG
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2018 edited
     
    And, continuing the tale of 2 cities, by 'What the dickens is that!', the update on Thredeov
      Mivlis - Thredeov.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2018
     
    That's coming on :)

    How does that boat between the bridges get out?
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2018
     
    It will be moved - alternatively, I might turn it into a prison hulk.
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2018
     
    Invent the lift bridge - Tower Bridge of London - or swinging bridge where roadways rotate out of the way to the side or a tilt bridge where the roadways tilt up via counter weights, or perhaps more interesting, a drop bridge where the roadway drops below the water level along the ship to float over it :-)
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    Another update to Khelaphet.
      Khelaphet2.PNG
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    Looks Good!!!

    Canb't wait til you get it done so that I can map more of it in detail.

    Here's my map of location 14, the Serapeum of the Majernus of the Empire.
      Capture2.JPG
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    2 embassies to add - any other important buildings, Jerry?

    i also will fix up the excessive pixelation of various backgrounds, though they do look OK in a larger version than i can show here.

    I am trying to keep all symbols vector based though.

    Any comments on technique or helpful hints - meaning Monsen, Sue, Lorelei and Ladiestorm, wyvern and my other helpful critics.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    Mine is more of a structural consideration.

    Its all looking very interesting - as much as I can tell at this scale, but isn't it a bit risky having more than one causeway? It weakens the city from a defensive point of view, where the enemy can attack along no less then 5 separate routes at the same time. A city on land has no choice but to have as many gates as there are main routes, but the whole point of being on an island is that its isolated... surely?
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    To get to Khelaphet, the enemy has to advance through tens of miles to get to the capital - and then they are met by the incomparable Minotaur army. Like Tenochtitlan, there are more than 1 causeway - here commerce outways a theoretical invasion and siege scenario, Ans no doubt there are drawbridges. Just like having multiple gates in a walled city. Finally, each causeway is defended by massive gate defences - just like in any walled city. Again commerce has precedence over defence to some extent.
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    The closest land enemy is 400 miles away. The Pirates of the area would rather sell slaves to the Empire than attack it.

    Quenten, I would suggest that the legend text font size be increased some. I can't zoom into the map enough to see which embassies you've put on Embassy Isle so I'm not sure which ones you're "missing." I'm somewhat curious as to what the origin of the Aquaduct is, as there are no nearby "mountains" from which to draw the water.

    There should be 2 major Ziggurats and 7 minor ones. I think I count only 6 minors???

    You might consider adding "moles" between Fortress Isle and Prison Isle and Prison Isle and the Pharos to protect the city from any storms coming from the Frigid Sea.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018 edited
     
    Thanks, Jerry, I will fix. Just the advice i needed. The legend will be redone at the end, when i have all in place. But even you will be able to read it, --- with the aid of an electron microscope - :D

    But Sue has drawn my attention to need for drawbridges.
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    Instead of drawbridges, how about high arched bridges?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    I think Quenten was thinking more about the defence of the city than sail boat access? I might be wrong.
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    In case you were not aware, Quenten is creating this map for me for the Magumul Empire for the Atlas Project and for the Realm Works Artemisia project :-)

    Sailing ships will not be allowed by the Minotaurs within the "moat" around the city. Any trading ships must dock and load/unload at the docks on the western side of the bay at the trade ports. The only boat traffic on the Grand Canal will be barges used to transport goods to and from from the city to the docks. I figured it would be less disruptive to the land traffic over the causeways for them to be high bridges that the barges could just be poled under.

    The Minotaurs are not a naval power. They do not like to travel beyond sight of land as they do not swim well -- being heavily muscled, they tend to sink -- glub, glub.

    The water gates will be protected by heavy portcullis that can be lowered in times of threat, which fortunately for the Minotaurs have been rare and it has been a couple of generations since the defenses of the city have been tested by a pirate attack, which was easily routed.

    Here is an image I found online that fits into my conception of how the minotaur "steer" caste would look as they head into combat.
      Steers.jpg
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      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    One of my questions here is one of scale. I measured the smallest villa in the bulls district, and found it to be 30 by 30 meters, which is quite a considerable size, especially for a city so tightly constrained as this one, with both walls and sea preventing any easy expansion outside the walls. Maybe this is as intended, and if so, everything is fine, but I am pointing this out because making things too large is one of the more common mistakes when making a cities (and dungeons).

    I am also curious when I see a separate slave district what the slaves do in this town? If they are household slaves, it is usually far more efficient to quarter them in the households they work (they're going to hang around there all day anyway). If they are some kind of "industrial" slaves however, it is another matter entirely.
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    Each of the villas is the home to a Bull, one of the four castes of the Minotaurean society. In their household, their may be several junior bulls who have yet to prove themselves, a group of steers who manage the household, and enough slaves to do the necessary work. Their might be a Cow or two, but most of them are kept in the great herds that forage in the plains. (Cows are at best semi-intelligent, not much more than our own milk cows.) All of these inhabitants require space, especially as Steers tend to be nearly 7 ft tall with really really broad shoulders!! :-)

    Most of the slaves in the city do the manual labor necessary to keep a city viable. Some are municipal slaves that work to keep the streets clean, the streets in repair, and handle the barges. Many belong to craftsmen and do the manufacturing and work in the skilled trades. It was found early on in the city's history to allow the slaves as much freedom as could be given and let them have their own quarter to run as they will, under the guidance and control of Steer overseers. Unlike many human societies where slaves are worked hard and used up, for the Minotaurs, slaves are a valuable commodity and are well cared for, as who would willingly destroy their assets?

    I've attached a pdf that gives the Minotaurs' creation mythology and a description of their castes. (Their mythology differs from reality as in Quenten's concept, a group of babylonians arrived through a "gate" onto the northern coast of Artemisia, where they became infected by a plague created by the Drow Queen of the Night, who was attempting to wipe out this new vermin. Most died from the plague, but those that didn't were transformed in body into what are now known as the Minotaurs.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    That makes me want to write a story about a Princess Xena type minotaur :P
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    Here's a pic I found that looks somewhat like how a Cow looks, with the addition of a more human looking head. :-)
      9ddba0685c5d23f6daf2258f5cd3a1ec.jpg
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    Minotaurs, being almost 1.7 x taller than humans, and very bulky to boot, the villas, which are like palaces for each Bull, are indeed meant to be that large. However, the buildings in the crafstmen district are smaller, and represent multistorey multifunction buildings. Most modern houses are more than 100 sq m (at least in Australia) even in cities. In this city, size has to be bigger to accommodate the minotaurs, and also to allow for apartment type structures. Obviously, villas and other important structures are large.
    on a different note, i think drawbridges with towers will be the go rather than arched bridges.
    I have not used directional shadows, as this is a vector based top down plan. Hopefully, smaller district plans (done by persons other than me!) will be both more detailed and show such details as shadows.
    The Slave District is a barracks type arrangement, with workshop areas, for some of them, as per jerry's instructions. He has given his rationale above.

    But do keep up the comments, i find them helpful and make me consider a few things I hadn't before (like defences of each causeway)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    100 square m?

    Mine is only 35 square m, and pretty average for a two adults in the UK. Places in London and other big cities are smaller than that. I think the space that people expect to have as a home depends a lot on population density. To me, your minimum home size is like a minotaur's palace, and I guess Sanctuary is going to be full of buildings that will seem to you to be about cupboard sized :P
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    10x10m was the size of my barn on my previous property - and just the right size for a minotaur family of 4-6. Minotaurs are really thoroughbred australian stock, and love space. my current house is small at 5x12 m. Guess it is a matter of perspective. Regardless, minotaurs need space - even their excreta is many times bigger than humans! (sorry, not sorry, Jerry). And very few dwellings would have only 2 people in it, though bear in mind that the smaller buildings would be compartmentalised - shops, workrooms, slave quarters as well as family space above shops, and even rent rooms for aliens (ie humans, Aeifa and Grim). And most public and important private buildings are much larger than 10x10 m.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    I'm quite happy in my not-quite-6-m x 6m property. Think I would feel lost in anything bigger! LOL! :)
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    Quenten, If I have any say in the design of the city, I would really prefer the arched bridge for several reasons.

    1) I don't see a Bull in a hurry having the patience to wait for the bridge to lower so that he can go on his way!!
    2) The history of the people arriving via "gate" to Artemisia is the Babylonians in 1200 to 1000 bc, the Greeks and Trojans from 800 to 300 BC, and the Gauls (who had little affect in the history of Artemisia) in 50ish BC. Their architectural ability was limited historically to stone and wood bridges. Mechanical bridge structures didn't really catch on in our history until the late dark ages - early middle ages and those were relatively short lengths used in fortification defenses -- drawbridges over the moat.
    3) aesthetically, I think a graceful arched bridge just looks better :-)


    a square meter is equal to 10.76 square feet. I live in Grand Rapids, MI in a house of 1650 sq feet. I can not imagine the two of us and our two cats and one dog living in a 35 square m flat (376.6 sq ft -- UGH!!!)
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    Arched bridges it is. However, technology has not remained at the level of the original ancestors who first came to Artemisia - magic and time have advanced since then. Why, the Iraisians are developing flying machines (part magic, part Steampunk tech) in Stromphe - and no, Magamul doesn't have the same tech-magic ingenuity of the Iraisians, so there. :P

    And to reiterate - very few dwellings have only 2 adults in them in Khelaphet. Extended family and slave attendants is the norm, even for lower middle class.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    When it comes to space, it is interesting how much that have changed up through the years. What we consider tiny space today was luxurious in the middle ages, or even 100 years ago. I live on about 100 m2, which, when this place was new, was divided into two family apartments. Now I feel this place is hardly large enough for me and my cat, but about a 100 years ago, 2 full families shared this space.

    My main point with pointing out things like this is just to make people think though. There is nothing wrong with having big houses in your city (and those minotaurs certainly requires more space), I am more interest in people reflecting over what they do to make sure they make what they intended to make. I've seen some pretty bad examples over the years, such as a a dungeon complex with a bunch of "tiny" rooms (a bed and a desk really, think monastic cell), but where each room was 20 by 20 foot, or 400 square feet, which is small for a modern apartment, but enormous for tiny spartan quarters.
    In a city, even rich people might often be forced to settle for smaller quarters (still huge compared to working class dwellings though), simply because there isn't enough room as long as they want to live inside the walls.
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    Point taken, and I think I have got the areas right for Stromphe, a human city. However, I do see each building as having multiple apartments. I am in the process of mapping a poor quarter block of apartments for Stromphe, in as yet unmapped district square (so not for this month's contest, i am afraid)
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2018
     
    And commiserations to your cat, Monsen, for having to share such damnably cramped quarters - does this rate as animal cruelty? :D
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    A section of Khelaphet city of the Bull's Quarter, In Quenten's map where the major road reaches the city wall. I will be mapping in detail the two named villas.

    Military structure of the Empire:

    ​An Educi is in charge of six Battle-Horn units. (162 Steers and 6 Porucik)
    A Battle-Horn is formed from ​3 Battle-Hoof units which is under direct command of a Steer Porucik (27 Steers).​
    ​The basic unit in the Magumul armies is the Battle-Hoof which is comprised of a Steer Sargeant (Warrior 5) and eight Steer Privates (Warrior 1).​
      Capture 1.JPG
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018 edited
     
    An update of the second of the two cities (what the dickens is going on here!)
    Can I have opinions on the 2 types of fields - which fills are preferred, and which layout. The recent one (most to the right) are strips of 5x20 m (approx 16x66 feet)
      Mivlis - Thredeov.PNG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Jerry - that's a great map :)

    I might be seeing this wrong, but are those swimming pools under open roofs?

    The only thing that might be worth looking at is the cart tracks, which seem to me to be a bit wide for the carts I can see?

    Quenten - that's coming on really well now :)
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Sue, which field arrangement, and which field fill do you prefer (or something else entirely).
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Me personally?

    From my own perspective I find the totally straight ones a bit artificial. Farming is different around the world, so perfectly straight fields might look really natural on a broad flat plain, but broad flat plains aren't that common in the UK, so I'm more comfortable with the patchwork of irregular shaped fields you get with gentle rolling hills.

    The colours of those straight ones don't seem to relate to the surrounding countryside all that well. If they are pure solid colour and not a texture, how about trying a Blend Mode on that Sheet? The fields in Sanctuary are solid colour patches on a sheet with a Blend Mode set to Colour Burn, and about 20% opacity, but with your generally paler map background one of the other settings might look nicer. Overlay, perhaps? That way you also get the benefit of any underlying texture showing through to make them look like they are part of the land.
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    I am not partial to the recent strip fields. Maybe if you did them in another fill? Those don't really blend well with what you've got going on with this map, i think.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    I'll try them with another fill and see what you think, when i add some more buildings. Thanks for the opinion though - it helps.
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    And a minor update of Khelaphet (so Thredeov doesn't get lonely)
      Khelaphet3.PNG
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Loopysue Don't you like the Minotaurs' "Aquarium," stocked with his pet crocodiles. Attached is a WIP of the Wall Educi's Villa.
      Capture3.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    Oh, well I couldn't see them!

    I thought they had posh swimming pools with G&T in a twee little cabinet to one side :P
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2018
     
    They weren't in the overview, just put them into the detailed map. Was actually looking for some nice Koi to put in the pond, but found the crocs instead. :-)

    I've moved the tracks closer together. Better??
      Capture4.JPG