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    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2018 edited
     
    Well, I have long, for decades, wanted to make floor maps, and connect them. Not just say 'spiral staircase' down to the next level.

    So, here it is. First map is an example flat map with a stair going downward.

    The second map is a small Iso map leading down to a 'connecting' room on the next level. i say connecting, because at that point, I would map another flat map to show second level.

    I think it would be boring to show all the stairs down, as they could be 10 feet, or hundreds of feet, of stairwell.

    Here we go !

    What do you think ?
      dungeon_h01_0003b.png
      dungeon_v01_0004b.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2018
     
    How interesting!

    I have always assumed that a stairwell symbol meant 'one level', no matter how far apart the levels were.

    Nice mapping, though, Jim :)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2018
     
    Thank you.

    Some of my dungeons.. the stairs on level 4 may go down to level 6. A character might have to go up to level 3, to find the spiral or stone stairs that goes down to level 5.

    More like a large stone puzzle. Sraa Keep on my Crestar site does have levels that as you progress downwards into the depths, your character misses where the main treasure is located. And the characters wind up with a lesser treasure.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2018
     
    How about adding a very small signpost label on the flat map, like "To level 3" with a tiny arrow?
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2018
     
    Well, I like for my players to guess where they are heading. I never tell them if they find everything.

    I could do it for my Atlas maps though.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2018
     
    People can always change the labels... or hide them :P
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2018
     
    You can ask Monsen to add a toggle for certain labels for Atlas maps, and add your own to your own maps. i put the 'secret' stuff on the gamesmaster only layer, and have a button to toggle this label on and off
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2018
     
    What do you think of combining these two methods ?
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2018
     
    My other concern is... would it lead to complicated maps ?

    In Sraa Keep, on my Crestar site, the levels don't sit above and below each other. Some go off to the side. Or one level is partially under another one, the lower level goes down the ridge from the one above it.

    I need to redo Sraa Keep maps, and this method might work, and it might make the maps more complicated than they already are.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2018
     
    I'm contemplating using this method, Iso and flat, for one of my Atlas dungeon maps.

    I have to get ready for a trip next week, so not sure when I'll work on this. But who knows, whan i say stuff like 'no time' I typically go ahead and do it.

    Symbol Set is Dungeon SS2B
      dungeon_h01_0011b.png
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018
     
    I just realized something...

    I don't see a way to show the underside of the level above.

    My plan was to draw a floor, and have a stone stair go down from an opening in that floor. But I don't see a way to draw a floor and show the underside of it.

    If I could do this, I could show pits and other lower sections of the floor from underneath.

    Anyway, research continues.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018
     
    Drawing it, and then rotating the png 180 degrees doesn't work either.
      dungeon_v02_0003b.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018
     
    I am not entirely sure I understand what you are trying to do.

    What seems to be the problem, Jim?
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018
     
    I want to draw, with CC3Plus, the bottom of the level above the next level down, at least to show where it connects. And to show any pits, etc. from underneath.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018
     
    But wouldn't that mean drawing the map in full perspective - full virtual reality?

    I don't think you can do that in ISO perspective. You can only see the front two faces and the top of anything.

    What if you were to use cutaway views like in engineering drawings to show hidden things? Would that work?
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018
     
    I don't think it needs full 3D. The symbols that can be placed to show the under side aren't available, but could be added.

    Drafting is something I learned many years ago, but I would much rather use CC3Plus. Drafting gave me a headache, even when I took a class in AutoCAD.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018 edited
     
    The above would work... if the floor was angled at a plus 30 degrees instead of a minus 30 degrees. The angle is mostly a guess.

    Hmm... Instead of the back edge being slanted downwards, if it was more horizontal, or slightly elevated it would look more like what I want to do.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018
     
    But that wouldn't be ISO perspective, would it?
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018
     
    Probably just me being a bit dense, but I'm not sure either why you need to see the underside of anything in isometric projection like this, Jim.

    I don't know if it may help - it helped me visualise things better at least for ISO 3D drawings - but this video is a useful take on converting 2D dungeon maps to isometric views, using purely hand-drawn systems (albeit drawn into a computer and manipulated that way). It's a little long for what it does, at nearly 18 minutes, but if you scan to the end, you may see what I mean when I say it shows how a 2D floorplan can be split among several levels in ISO projection, yet still clearly showing exactly how every level connects and where. You'd need to flesh-out the details with walls, doors, room dressing, etc., but the basic principle holds, I think.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018
     
    Posted By: LoopysueBut that wouldn't be ISO perspective, would it?
    to

    Still two sides but with a bottom view instead of top view.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2018
     
    On my phone for now. Easier for me to see videos on my computer.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2018
     
    Two sides and a bottom view?

    That would certainly take some getting used to - and you are right - there aren't any symbols for such a view.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2018
     
    I have some ideas... probably wont pan out, but I am going to look at something else. Not Iseo symbols, by maybe I can fudge something with Perspectives drawing tools. But off hand, I don't think so.

    I watched the video... I did do a class in drafting in college, but I'm not good at it.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018 edited
     
    The floor angle is still wrong, here here is another try. A nice pit seen from below, and some salagtites.
      dungeon_v03_0002b.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018
     
    Its a very weird view, but I CAN see it if I try, and if I know that its meant to be the underside of the roof and not just an upside down map. The stairs are throwing it out though. Every time I look at them I see and upside down map and not the upward view.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018
     
    I think if the stairs were 180 degrees the other way, it would look better.

    Or spiral stairs. I can try that next.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018
     
    Okay, next test.
      dungeon_v03_0003b.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018
     
    Hmmm....

    I think it might look better if you move that stalactite. At first I thought it was the dangling legs of someone sitting on the bottom step.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018
     
    Also if you make the floor stone instead of wood. Then the stalactites would look more believable. I'm not saying that they wouldn't form on the underside of floorboards, just that the boards seem a bit out of place.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018 edited
     
    More trying for a floor angle... which I think I have with using the poly room, instead of a rectangular floor.

    edit:

    Argh, this looks more like an optical illusion where it looks right side up and upside down.
      dungeon_v04_0004b.PNG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018
     
    Ummm….

    I think you're getting cooler now. The one before was better ;)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018
     
    I'll think on this more... need to check my tent and stove to see if everything still works.
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018
     
    Jim, while I wholeheartedly applaud the spirit of exploration here, and your efforts so far, I'm still not sure why you're feeling the need to do this. It almost seems as if you're trying to create a virtual-reality 360° view of the scenery, rather than a map, and I'm not sure CC3+ is the right software for generating that.

    For instance, pits don't "hang" from the floor above them like stalactites; they're cut into the substance of or below the floor, so aside from the stalactites, my impression is that the entire scene is just the wrong way up. To get the pit to look more like a pit, I think you'd need a cutaway showing it IS a pit, or maybe using a transparent/translucent "front wall" so you could see the trapdoor (if there is one) and any pit contents (floor spikes, say). Some impression of the overall floor thickness - again, perhaps using semi-transparent lines and/or textures - might help with the illusion too.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2018
     
    Well, I wanted to show the underside of the level leading down to the level being mapped.

    Not the entire level, just to show where the stairs, etc. attaches.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2018
     
    About to finish packing for a camping trip for this weekend, so I will be back next week, after I rest up from the camping trip.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2018
     
    Have a lovely time! :)
    • CommentAuthorsuntzu
    • CommentTimeMay 21st 2018
     
    Just had a thought how about making the ceiling a mirror image of the floor but make the ceiling not as squashed as the floor that way it would appear to the person looking at the picture to be in between those two surfaces
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2018
     
    Rotating them in Irfanview doesn't work, so mirroring sounds good. I'll check it when I can.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2018
     
    Irfanview doesn't have a 'mirror' command but it does have vertical and horizontal flip. I know I can mirror symbols in CC3/CC3Plus, but I don't think that will work.

    Here is the vertical flip.
      dungeon_v03_0002bc.png
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2018 edited
     
    This is mirror in CC3Plus. It doesn't move it enough. The floor is too angled, it needs to be flatter, smaller angle.
      dungeon_v03_0004b.png
    • CommentAuthorsuntzu
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2018
     
    Since I think the perspective view is from 60 deg then depending on the height of your room you need to work out the angle of view , now I don’t know the maths part but to make it look convincing create a box in a 3D program the size of your room and rotate that box so it looks right to you , take a screen shot and import it into cc3+ in its own layer and use that to resize your drawing , I think that will make it look convincing
    Rob
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2018
     
    I think you may both be thinking of point perspective, which is very different to isometric view.

    Point perspective has a horizon and at least one vanishing point, which means that things get smaller as they get further away.

    Isometric view doesn't have any vanishing points or horizons, and is used in maps more frequently than point perspective because the symbols stay the same size and orientation no matter where they are in the drawing. Isometric view will only ever show 3 faces of a cube, whether you have it the right way up, or upside down, and combining right way and upside down isometric views actually destroys the basic geometry of the view - which maybe why you simply cannot make it work.

    Its like trying to find the fifth dimension in a four dimensional universe (if you accept that time is a dimension)

    There's nothing stopping you from making a map in point perspective (I've done it several times in GMIP already). I just don't think that Perspectives is necessarily the best tool to do that in, since point perspective and isometric geometry don't really mix - a bit like oil and water ;)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2018
     
    I've drawn vanishing point perspective by hand with a ruler and pencil.

    But I don't think that is what I am trying to do.

    If I flip a Perspective drawing. I still only see two sides and a top albeit it becomes two sides and a bottom. I'll work on some more ideas later on. The part that is the biggest problem is the floor angle. It should be at a less angle.
    • CommentAuthorsuntzu
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2018
     
    ok my quick and dirty method , the 3 magic numbers are , 45 deg , 150% , 86% , gimp or any other graphics package of your choice
    first get your floor , or ceiling ( top down view )to the size of room you need , then rotate by 45 deg , then turn off the constrain proportions and make the width 150% and the height 86% , do the same for the ceiling but put some transparency in it so you can see through it , now put then in the same drawing on different sheets so you can play with the effects

    in the example i have shown i squished the ceiling a little more in the height but kept the width as it then looks like the viewer is not so high when looking at the room

    hope that has spurred you on in your quest

    Rob
      test.png
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2018
     
    Well, I can visualize all sorts of floor plans, but getting the software and myself to work together to do it... thats another unicorn search.

    I did a standard Perspectives floor, with stairs and a hole in the floor.

    Then did a mirror copy and got rid of the original bits.

    Now its coming out of the wall. I will try command line rotate on the next map.
      dungeon_v05_0005b.png
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2018
     
    Big problem at this point is the wood floor redraws so much at the slightest movement of my mouse, I'm going to have to switch to a plain floor. I can't tell what angle the floor is at unless I click to place it.

    I see Shift=15 degrees. I'll try that to.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2018
     
    Got it to rotate. But the floor needs to rortate in a plane I don't see how I can get it to work.
      dungeon_v05_0009b.png
    • CommentAuthorsuntzu
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2018
     
    I think the main problem is the symbols are all drawn from the same angle and you need them drawn from a different angle it may work if instead of placing a stair symbol you place rectangular blocks with just the long corners touching
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2018
     
    I'll try that when I can.
    • CommentAuthorsuntzu
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2018
     
    Try this create a floor from the floor symbols but befor you lay it down mirror image that floor symbol so for instance I think the stone floor has a bottom mud edging , turn that by 180 deg and lay that down so you see the mud edge on top instead of the bottom that would then be the ceiling , oh and set the background to black that may fool your eyes into thinking it’s a ceiling not a floor