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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 4th 2018
     
    I thought it might be similarly helpful to show the dashed line style I created for my map, and how to get to the controls for any newbies reading this thread in the future ;)
      line style.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    I've been having a few problems with the rendering/resolution just lately. I'm not sure why.

    Anyway - after what has seemed like an awful lot of pootling around not getting anywhere fast with loads of different ideas on which way to go with each city district, this is where I'm at right now. Please don't get upset if you preferred the colours in the last version - I always experiment, or I never learn stuff. We can go back to darker greens and richer oranges if you prefer :)

    I realise I've totally lost it with the ocean texture. It simply isn't working the way it was before, and I have no idea why.

    City of Sanctuary Version 2 - 10.JPG

    Here is a close up of the area where most of the work has been going on.

    City of Sanctuary Version 2 - 10a.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    My only criticism is that the houses have lots of space behind them. Shouldn't the city be a little denser (unless this is as fantasy American suburb city :) ). I am surprised that the sea is not working. When all else fails, blame Win10!. And I prefer the colours you have now.
    Though all being said, i feel bad about critiquing this work of a really great artist.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    Thanks Quenten :)

    This is Sanctuary. Its not meant to be crammed to the hilt and a miserable place to live in, though I do understand what you mean.

    I wasn't at all happy with the road system in Rimtown, so that's been repeatedly ripped out and re-laid - about 8 times in all. That's what's been taking the time. As yet, I haven't put all the buildings back in, which is why the main thoroughfare is totally bare of its busy shopping street. All the way down that road from the circular plaza to the bridge, shops will be crammed in so tight you might actually have trouble seeing them as more than just stripes at this scale. There are shops in London that are only 16 feet wide at the front, but maybe 50 feet or more going away from the road. Its like densely packed moss, with each strand fighting for window space against the road. Of course... there will be the occasional highly successful shop that will have bought up all its neighbours and have a frontage of 50 feet or so, but the rooftops won't necessarily have been rebuilt from the original crowded moss-like state. That single large building that's already there is the largest tavern in the city. Its owned by the king/queen/baron/duchess, and NO ONE gets to knock it down to build a whole new moss of shops there. It might be the most violent and dangerous place in the city, but it brings more money into his/her coffers than all the taxes put together.

    Sanctuary Village is a preservation area. Its largely untouched and certainly under-developed. This is the spot where all the courtiers tend to live in a pretend countryside home with a nice little garden within the city walls. Being the people in power after the Lord/King, they have no intention of letting go life's little privileges - no matter how crammed the rest of the city might become. The fact that they do live in a city and can't have as much space as they might have had in the countryside, is reflected in the relatively tiny size of their cottages and plots. Some of them probably have castles as big as Sanctuary Castle elsewhere.

    I'm not happy with Witchaven (north of the river). Although the roads are better now that I've drawn them so that they look like they are on a hillside, they are still too far apart. Those houses you see on them were a 5 minute test using the Street command just to fill it up and see what it looked like. All of that area will be different next time you see it ;)
    • CommentAuthorSilverdrop
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    Looks like the scaling of the ocean textures has changed if I compare images (eyeballing it I'd say it's about a factor 4 in scale difference). Have you accidentally maybe changed the characteristics?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    I was having trouble with different textures being at different scales, and their combined effect on the export.

    In particular I was having huge difficulties with the roof textures creating new and previously unheard of patterns - contrasting spots, stripes, and even a chequerboard effect, so I set the resolution to 'fixed', and 'Low'. While that completely cured the rooftops (as you can see above), it meant that my hugely enlarged HW ocean fill (it was set to 2000 ft scale and blurred to hide the pixilation at VH res) was most horribly pixelated (also visible above).

    Since rendering those maps, however, I've had one of those 'doh!' moments, and realised that all I need to do is set the map resolution to VH, and then individually set all the roof textures (and anything else that's causing a problem by being too detailed) to reference their lower resolution files in the Fill Properties box - one by one.

    So now I can have my VH ocean set back to 2000 feet, while enjoying the roof textures at LO res.
  1.  
    Posted By: LoopysueThis is Sanctuary. Its not meant to be crammed to the hilt and a miserable place to live in, though I do understand what you mean.

    I wasn't at all happy with the road system in Rimtown, so that's been repeatedly ripped out and re-laid - about 8 times in all.


    You originally worked from the auto-generated plan for a large walled city with the medieval city generator. Those cities didn't grow according to the background you have in mind with Sanctuary. They were for large parts crammed and miserable to live in
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    LOL! Those randomly generated cities are crammed full of triangular blocks, which I don't think is really all that natural ;)

    I never intended to stick with the original road plan. It was just something to get me started - better than staring at a blank canvas.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: LoopysueSince rendering those maps, however, I've had one of those 'doh!' moments, and realised that all I need to do is set the map resolution to VH, and then individually set all the roof textures (and anything else that's causing a problem by being too detailed) to reference their lower resolution files in the Fill Properties box - one by one.
    That won't really work. First of all, CC3+ picks the appropriate resolution from the set no matter which of the 4 you manually set. And even if you could do that, it would be a very problematic result, because the high-res export in the atlas is meant for people to be allowed to zoom in on it, if you were to use fixed low-res textures on roofs, it would look horrible when people do zoom in.
    You should probably experiment with the fill style resolution values instead. And remember, you don't need to actually scale all four by the same factor.
  2.  
    Sometimes the triangualr blocks are a bit much, yeah, though some cities did have a decent amount of them ;)

    Quite interesting to look at historical maps of medieval (and a bit later) cities
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    Remy - I think I understand.

    The problem I have is that the tile and slate fills on the rooftops making those crazy patterns when the file is set to VH res to render the ocean nicely, while if I drop the fil res to LO to get the rooftops looking nice the ocean is a mess. If I then reduce the scale of the ocean fill I get the repeating pattern characteristic of a fill that's being used at too small a scale for the area, and there aren't any similar fills I can mix the HW ocean with.

    It looks like I might have to use just a solid blue poly for each of those two sheets, instead of a textured one. Its the only way I can get the rendering to work nicely.

    I don't know why its suddenly changed, but it has. I wasn't having this problem before.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    Silverdrop - Thanks for the link. That's a very pretty map, and it shows a lot of unexpected things - like the presence of quite a lot of space laid down to allotments, for a start.

    There are a lot of what I call pseudo-triangular blocks in that map, but if you look closely at them the buildings themselves don't have a triangular shape. Most have at least four sides even though one end can be a whole lot narrower than the other.

    To my eye, there is also something a bit sterile about the typical Watabou layout. Districts are either crammed with very sharply pointed triangles, or nearly perfect square grids (you can see the grid tendency in the districts outside the southern wall of Sanctuary - and that's after I've deliberately drawn it wobblier than the original). And none of the roads are at all kinked or curved in any way. In those respects the road systems generated by the built in Random City generator quite often feel a whole lot more natural.

    Maybe one day Watabou or someone else will create a random city generator that works on more complicated algorithms related to actual real-world road plan analysis. Until then, I will probably continue to re-draw the bits I'm not happy with :P
  3.  
    from your reaction I gather you looked at the top map? scroll down, tons of maps with tons of variety. It's very educational to look at differences (compare for example Milan and Palmanova with Paris or Brussels)
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    The new coloration is nice, but to me, gives the impression of autumn coming on. The original colors seemed more tropical to my eyes.

    As for triangular city blocks and buildings... If you lived where I do, it would not seem strange at all.
      City 2.jpg
      City1.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    LOL! My fault, Silverdrop. I automatically assume I've only been sent to see a certain thing and don't always scroll ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    Now you have explained your vision of the city, I think you are on the right track - the most CIVILIZED city in Nibirum
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    Quenten - You can thank the elves and the mermaids for that ;)

    Shessar - these buildings in Weymouth aren't triangular either in that they end in a rounded shape instead of a point, but they are the closest thing I've ever seen to triangular.

    That's what I'm trying to say. There really is no such thing as a triangular building - at least, not one with three sharply defined corners like there are all over the place in a Watabou plan.

    Even those modern build 'triangles' you've shown in your second shot have blunted corners.

    It just doesn't *feel* right to have as just many triangular buildings as there are rectangular ones. Not to me it doesn't :)
      rounded ends.jpg
  4.  
    I take the street layout from the generated maps, but mostly ignore the houses. Those I fill in myself, maybe with a glance at rough sizes on the generated map.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    I click the generator until I see a nice shape, then re-route it all to suit my purpose.

    Its just something to have on the screen instead nothingness. A suggestion of a general idea.
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    I now see what you're saying Sue. Sorry for misunderstanding and for the side track, but this sort of discussion does help me with city design. There are just too many variables to think about when it comes to mapping realistic cities. :)

    You are correct. The only place I've seen true triangular corners are in US fortifications. I'm not sure if this design was popular at all in other places but this design can be found all along the eastern US.
      Triangle.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    Oh no - don't apologise! :)

    I always have trouble explaining things - unless its totally straight forward ;)

    How odd about that shape. Maybe its something to do with some strategy or battle tactic that was easier if the 'towers' were that shape instead of round or square. Maybe they are more easily defended by men armed with guns than traditional round or square shaped towers?
    • CommentAuthorSilverdrop
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: ShessarI'm not sure if this design was popular at all in other places but this design can be found all along the eastern US


    I know at least one place in The Netherlands that has similar fortifications: Naarden vesting, built in the 17th century and part of active defense line until early WW2. it's more than a fort though, it's a complete town with fortification and surrounded by water.
      Naarden vesting.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    The American designer had a Dutch heritage?

    I've not seen anything like that in the UK, but it doesn't mean there aren't any ;)
  5.  
    Not impossible, but the historical maps of Palmanova and Milan show similar style fortifications. I believe it has to do with optimizing the area from which you can shoot at an approaching opponent.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    Triangular shapes aren't that uncommon. Here are a couple of examples from Bergen (my hometown), all true triangular ends and not rounded.
      bergen triangle 1.png
      bergen triangle 2.png
      bergen triangle 3.png
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    Ok! LOL!

    You win :)

    Have you got any medieval examples, by any chance? It might help to fill in any future Watabou plans more easily ;)
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    Star forts have a long tradition: http://www.castlesandmanorhouses.com/types_10_star.htm shows a few. They were most useful after the advent of black powder firearms/cannon and prior to the development of heavy mortars with exploding shells (roughly early 1500s to early 1800s). The base of the Statue of Liberty in New York Harbor in the US is such a design.

    The purpose of the stars is to give overlapping fields of fire for the defenders on the points of the stars. If one point is overrun, the defenders in neighboring points can open fire on the failed defense from both sides.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    They're very beautiful!

    Thanks, Joe :)

    Maybe I will do a star fort, but not in this map. I'm not even sure if gunpowder has been invented yet on Nibirum!
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    Fort McHenry in Baltimore is one such fort.

    satellite and map Use the mouse wheel to scroll in and out. Also controls on lower right. Upper right button is for Full screen view.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    Thank you, Jim :)
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: LoopysueMaybe I will do a star fort, but not in this map. I'm not even sure if gunpowder has been invented yet on Nibirum!

    The style of fortifications here on Earth says a lot about local technology levels and wealth. High walls and deep moats are great for defeating infantry and cavalry, but those high walls are great targets for artillery. Low and sloping walls are great for bouncing off high-energy projectiles like artillery, but aren't as useful against infantry. Any kind of walls aren't particularly useful against attack by flying forces.
    Stone walls are very much more expensive than dirt embankments or wooden palisades, but they take very much longer to build and cost ever so much more. Stone walls have a huge psychological impact and last a very long time, though. Maintenance is a huge expense and the presence of imposing stone walls around a small village is a sign of an interesting history.
    I'll stop hijacking things now.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    What... Wait!

    I was just getting into that! LOL!

    You write very interestingly, Joe. I don't know how you do it, since most factual books have the unfortunate tendency to bore the pants off me! LOL!
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    You're welcome. I've been to Ft. McHenry, but it was back in the 1950s.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    Just wait till Sanctuary is invaded by the new flying machines being developed in Stromphe in SW Artemisia. LOL
    Regardless, even without gunpowder, I am sure wizards will have fun with variants of Lightning Strike and Fireball, not to mention flying mages with a bucket of unpleasant material to drop on walled cities. Perhaps walls are not so necessary in a magic civilization (unless magic is very uncommon and not state controlled.)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2018
     
    :P

    We have our own wizards, mages, witches and elves!

    And I've seen with my own eyes things just kind of bounce off some kind of invisible dome that seems to cover the city.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    This is the whole map - a colour check, though please bear in mind there are no hedges, walls, country lanes, farms ponds irrigation systems or any other details added to the surrounding countryside, so it does look a bit harsh and unnatural at the moment.

    I like the colours this way, but I'm open to suggestions :)
      City of Sanctuary Version 2 - 102.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    Is the purple lavender, or a noxious weed we get in Australia, poisonous to cattle, but very pretty, called Patterson's Curse. ;)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    LOL! I'm giggling away here. No one seems to like my lavender! LOL!

    Its too red and lots too bright, and all the colours are too solid right now. I'm just trying them all out like paint swatches on a wall ;)
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    I'll just be over here picking my jaw up off the table. Sue, you have the makings of a most epic map here and I couldn't be happier it's on my continent of Malajuri! I can already see the adventures my players will have in this spectacular city!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    Aw, really?

    Thank you, Lorelei. You are too kind :D
    • CommentAuthorkevbeck43
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    Inspirational map here Loopysue. I am wondering how you get your bevels looking that way. Is that a Gimp job? Once again this is awesome.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    Thanks kevbeck :)

    Ummm…. LOL! Which ones!!!!

    There's a bevel on each of the four sheets that make up the landmass, and there's a bevel on the dyke under the wall. The relief shading, however, is not a bevel.
    • CommentAuthorkevbeck43
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    Now that I am looking at this I see the four sheets that make up the landmass and I now see that you must have drawn in the relief shading somehow? Did you use Gimp for that? I never thought of stacking land like that to create that effect. I'm going to steal it. :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    You don't have to steal anything. Its for the Community Atlas, so eventually everyone will be able to dissect it to their heart's content (and probably discover that I'm not the world's tidiest mapper) ;)

    If you want to get a head start on it, though, Draw/Offset is your friend where the cliffs are concerned ;)

    Because its for the Atlas there's nothing in this map that isn't CC3+. Once its been finished and uploaded the add ons you will need to see it are CD3 and Bogies Mapping Objects. There are also 4 fills and a very small set of trees already included in the Malajuri folder in the Atlas which I created specially for this map.

    The relief is very crude - a single sheet with a gargantuan blur (1000 map units), and a Blend Mode effect set to Overlay, with a handful of equally gargantuan black and white polygons drawn on it. At least some of the relief around that collapsed cavern is generated by other illusion work - the roads have a tendency to follow the contours of the hill that isn't really there, and by the time I'm properly finished with it there will be lots of other little clues to trick the eye into seeing the hill.

    This is a screen shot of the relief sheet with the effects turned off on that sheet. Now you can see what I mean when I say that its pretty crude.
      Sanctuary relief.jpg
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    Sue, I keep looking at the colors you're using - purple, bright orange, neon green - and I'll admit that it boggles my brain a bit as to how you'll turn this psychedelic patchwork into a city. LOL However, I know that whatever you do with it will look amazing. Your maps are always stunningly beautiful.

    I will be watching this closely because I have a feeling that I'll be learning a lot about the use of color from you. :D
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    Thanks Shessar :)

    I have a feeling I'm going to learn quite a bit as well ;)

    These are only colour swatches at the moment - a bit like when you go to the DIY store and bring home a rainbow of shades and paint them on the wall in a clashing tartan.

    The fields need more texture, so I will probably experiment with a few partitive colour ideas to suggest furrows and things as well as an average colour. Then there are all the details to go in - farms, tracks, double hedgerows, stone walls, etc, which should break it up even more.

    I'm thinking of going a whole load more detailed on the relief sheet as well, to add more interesting details of gullies and so on.

    All these colours are created on a single sheet with a Blend Mode set to Colour Burn and 20% opacity. they are the palest shades of nearly every colour in the default palette, which means... since I've just discovered that I could alter the palette and attach it to the drawing, I could also try harmonising them that way as well.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    Both look like good high altitude maps to me.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    Thank you, Jim :)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    You're welcome. There are fields of lavender plants around, and they do look like that from high up.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2018
     
    The amount of lavender oil that's sold online these days, I'm surprised they aren't more common than they are.

    It would have been an important plant in medieval times. Its healing powers are real, since it happens to be a brilliant antibacterial/antifungal/antiviral agent, not to mention the even stranger power it seems to have to heal burns pretty fast. Maybe its because nothing can grow in the wound and trigger the formation of scar tissue.

    So. There's lots of lavender growing in the immediate vicinity.